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3 Dimensional Chat / [LOCKED] GMAX: more discussion, less censorship

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zircher
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Posted: 11th Mar 2005 00:02 Edited at: 11th Mar 2005 00:18
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Quote: "JoshK wrote: It is illegal to use gmax with Dark Basic Professional or FPS Creator. I've discussed this privately with Discreet."


I've asked you privately and now I'm asking publically. How did you arrive at this? What was said in your discussion with Discreet? Were there specific passages from some EULA that was quoted? Has there been a policy change that we are unaware of?

People have scoured the wording of the licenses, talked to other people at Discreet, referenced all kinds of other fourms for insight and generally come up with exactly the opposite of what you have stated. Sure, DBP and FPSC have no license to use GMAX directly. Duh. There are very specific developer licensing fees and procedures that go into that. Open ended tools such as DBP and FPSC are unfortunately forbidden from even qualifying for inclusion due to their nature.

But, where is it illegal for me to use GMAX to make models and then convert them to some other format? There was some licensing information qouted by Josh that specifically granted usage of GMAX content for personal use. That seems to be in direct conflict with the opening statements.

Josh Klint has taken some rather draconian measures to crush GMAX usage. He has deleted threads. He has even banned me when I tried to discuss the issues (even in non-technical threads.)

Don't try to intimidate me, educate me the other readers of this forum. You obviously have information that is of interest to me and the other readers of the 3D Chat board. As a moderator, I honestly expect you to be a paragon of a helpful forum member. Please don't dissappoint me again.
--
TAZ

[edit for typos]

"Do you think it is wise to provoke him?" "It's what I do." -- Stargate SG-1
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Van B
Moderator
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Location: Sunnyvale
Posted: 11th Mar 2005 00:21
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What you do in your own home on your own PC is pretty much upto you - the second you distribute a GMAX model outwith the guidelines it's illegal, and the guidelines are very strict.

These 'in-the-moderators-face' posts need to be nipped in the butt though - this isn'nt the premiership and we're not referees. Frankly I get sick of seeing 'use GMAX posts' when they're promoting illegal use of the software, we just can't have that and I'm glad he's taken it upon himself to police the situation before someone from here ends up in court. The very last thing TGC needs is a bad rep from Discreet.


Van-B


It's c**p being the only coder in the village.
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zircher
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Posted: 11th Mar 2005 01:28
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I can understand that. And, I even have no beef with the technical GMAX model conversion threads that were deleted. [On the grounds that it was to protect TGC.] I happen to think that other actions where handled badly. For example, the deletion of the 'GMAX personal use' thread which was non-technical in nature. Perhaps it is all about impressions and I was given a face full of negative ones.
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TAZ

"Do you think it is wise to provoke him?" "It's what I do." -- Stargate SG-1
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TheSquid
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Posted: 11th Mar 2005 03:55
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Let us not forget that certain people on this forum are quoting an EULA, but the quote that is being used does not exist. The exact quote, which has now also been deleted from the old thread, did not exist in the GMAX or TurboSquid EULA.

I'm happy to see the fictional quote has been removed. Perhaps my email to Rich had an impact, but who knows for sure. In my email correspondence with Rich, he said he was contacting Discreet and would make the results of his discussions public.

The bottom line is that the moderators were spreading lies regarding GMAX and Discreet, by quoting a fictional clause of an EULA. If anything would land TGC in court, it would be that blatent spreading of misinformation.

Van - I think we're all in agreement that illegal usage of any software should not be supported. But that simply isn't what's going on with GMAX.
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geecee3
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Posted: 11th Mar 2005 19:47
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I wonder how many of the kids using 3dsMAX on this board have a legitimate copy. 3ds is a damn expensive bit of software. I'd be more worried about the content being made usng illegal cracked versions of that software than gMAX. Most of the kids these days are into their filesharing software, and anyone with half a brain can use the torrent system. I had a look the other night at several torrent sites and found all the latest 3d software within seconds. How gMAX is being used by us lowly bedroom coders is of much less concern than how much their flagship products are being used and abused by almost anyone who has even the slightest interest in 3d.

Personally, I like the FREE TOOLS approach, like what's happening with truespace, poser, bryce and many other great softwares that have a free older version that can be used without restrictions.

How can simple discussions on a forum get a site into trouble? freedom of speech man. the fact that we discuss how discreet licences it's product shows we are open minded people. who knows, one day the big companies may sit up and take notice of what we say on this board and change their licence approach to encourage the use of their products by us little people.

geecee3.
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Van B
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Posted: 11th Mar 2005 20:44
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The problem is that there's little they can do about the piracy situation with Max, and if the freed up GMax, well then who would need to buy/steal Max?. Discreet don't want people using GMax for their game models, they want people to buy Max, understandable really, but to be fair - 3DS Max had it's price jacked up because professionals were using it, it would be nice if there was some sort of Gmax+ that could be targetted at hobbyists and have official export plugins - if it had enough functionality and was fairly priced it could easily distract people from stealing Max.


Van-B


It's c**p being the only coder in the village.
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zircher
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Posted: 12th Mar 2005 00:18
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True, but at times I wonder about Discreet's vision for GMAX. The fact that you can sell GMAX models (owning data is a different animal from licensing it), that they provide free stand alone tools to convert GMAX models to other formats, the wording that I've seen concerning personal usage, etc. It sends a mixed message compared to what seems to be the current direction that the wind is blowing in.

If I was running the show and wanted to keep GMAX locked up for game mod use only. I'd set it up so that the licensed games could digest GMAX models natively rather than allowing for a conversion step. That's where Trouble and Confusion walk in the door and track mud on the carpet. Of course, hindsight is the gift all critics and arm chair generals share.
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TAZ

"Do you think it is wise to provoke him?" "It's what I do." -- Stargate SG-1
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game Spacer
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Posted: 12th Mar 2005 00:49 Edited at: 12th Mar 2005 00:51
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To be honest there is no good reason to try to use an inferior
model editor such as Gmax just because its freely available
(not free to use),when cheap alternatives are available.

For instance there is Ms3d to cover most things people want to
make,if thats too expensive theres DeledLite + Fragmotion total cost $15.

GameSpace is very good(no the gui is not hard understand)
keep an eye on the website,Caligari very often do good deals.So my
view on the subject is Forget the nonsense that is Gmax! life is too short.
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AlexI
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Posted: 12th Mar 2005 01:04
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you can get 3ds max personal learning edition for £80 quite cheep but you can not sell anything you make with it
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game Spacer
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Posted: 12th Mar 2005 01:08
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Quote: "you can get 3ds max personal learning edition for £80 quite cheep but you can not sell anything you make with it "


They should be giving that away,thier competitors give away PLE's
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G Man
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Posted: 12th Mar 2005 01:53
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Another really good modeller that I've been playing with is Silo. The learning curve was almost non-existant! The UI is very intuitive and uncluttered. It's $109 for the full version but you really get your money's worth!

Intel Pentium 4, 3.4GHz, 1280MB RAM, NVidia Quadro FX3000/256MB, 240GB HD, XP Pro
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Required
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Posted: 12th Mar 2005 02:14
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Zircher, I would suggest reading through the Quote that Josh Klint posted up.

The area of the ELUA outlined is the part conserning TurboSquid Retailing. You are not allowed to retail your creations as a direct result on TurboSquid with any of thier considered Standard Formats.

As had been explained numerous times by the development team when it was first released. You are allowed to distribute your work however you choose for engines using the exportable formats.

As you would have to pay in the region of $250,000 for id Software's Quake III Engine. Currently the only real format that can be used in anything other than un-Modifiable engines.
Then you can quickly see the reasoning for not imposing any restrictions on anything other than a site Discreet setup in order for retailing.

They may have re-thought the EULA if they knew about Dark Basic Professional's ability to use the Quake3 Formats. Fact is they didn't, so make use of the loop hole.

System: Windows XP CPU: AMD Athlon 2600+ RAM: 512MB Video: GeForce FX 5200 Audio: C-Media 9739 DirectX: Version 9.0c
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G Man
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Posted: 12th Mar 2005 02:37
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Quote: "like what's happening with truespace, poser, bryce and many other great softwares that have a free older version that can be used without restrictions"


Um, where can I get any version of Poser for free? (Legally of course)

Intel Pentium 4, 3.4GHz, 1280MB RAM, NVidia Quadro FX3000/256MB, 240GB HD, XP Pro
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game Spacer
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Posted: 12th Mar 2005 03:50
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G Man
Try Daz at daz3d.com you have to sign up to get a copy of daz.
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TheSquid
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Location: Ohio
Posted: 12th Mar 2005 04:52 Edited at: 12th Mar 2005 04:54
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Quote: "They may have re-thought the EULA if they knew about Dark Basic Professional's ability to use the Quake3 Formats. Fact is they didn't, so make use of the loop hole.
"


The Tempest EULA is VERY specific regarding the usage of their plugin.

Quote: " (from section 1.2) You shall use the Software only for evaluation of the Software's applicability, usability, performance, and design and to enable you to fulfill your evaluation and reporting obligation under Section 2 below."

Here's the link so everyone knows it's a real quote:

http://files.turbosquid.com/Products/L567283/W3VZHYFRJS/beta_license_agreement_text.htm

This means that the Tempest software (.md3 exporter) can not be used in DB Pro, or any other software for that matter. This is not in the GMAX EULA, it's specific to the tempest plugin.

Quote: "Zircher, I would suggest reading through the Quote that Josh Klint posted up.
"


Josh Klint's quote was made up, it doesn't exist. It's pure fiction. A lie, if you will.
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zircher
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Posted: 12th Mar 2005 07:07 Edited at: 12th Mar 2005 07:10
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Actually, my interests in GMAX models are purely for personal use. I wanted to study how other artists created their textures and applied them so I could improve my skills. The problem was that the methods mentioned could be easily used to against the spirit and letter of the license.

So, I can see why the orginal post was deleted. [I also kind of slammed one of the other posters for being a hypocrite. And, he turned out to be a friend of a moderator. My bad.]

SO, let's not go down that road again or this thread will also risk being deleted.
--
TAZ

[editted for typos and clarity]

"Do you think it is wise to provoke him?" "It's what I do." -- Stargate SG-1
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