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DarkBASIC Professional Discussion / Shadows for comercial games

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BHoltzman
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Posted: 27th Jan 2003 18:50
Is it true that we legally have to obtain another license to use the shadow option that come with DBPro in comercial products?
Shadow Robert
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Posted: 27th Jan 2003 18:58
No ... if you use any of the features within DarkBasic Professional you are free from licences.
However you do need an nVidia GeForce 3/4/Fx card to use them - unless i'm mistaken

However when you use BSP developers external from DarkBasic Professional, thats when the costs get blurry

Anata aru kowagaru no watashi!
BHoltzman
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Posted: 27th Jan 2003 19:18
On the 3d Game Studio faq page they compare DBPro with 3DGS and claim that the shadow technique that's used in DBPro is copyrighted by another company and license fees need to be paid in order to use them. So I was wondering if that was true or if I got some bad info.

I'd like to look at the site again, but they seem to be down at the moment.

Rob K
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Posted: 27th Jan 2003 19:20
That is absolute rubbish - don't worry. You can use all the FX with no copyright restrictions. The Pixel / Vertex shaders were nvented by Nvidia, but all new (good) GFX cards support them.

NOBODY has a forum name as stupid as Darth Shader. I do.
BHoltzman
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Posted: 27th Jan 2003 19:21
They're back up. Here's a copy of the chart. I see what I read was not what I thought I read.


Authoring Systems Basic Engines C++ Engines
GCS RAD Quest A5std A5ext A5com A5pro DBPro Blitz Tvision Halflife Genesis Auran Nebula Crystal Torque Lithtech Quake3 Vulpine Unreal2
Price (full version) $69 $129 $749 $49 $79 $199 $1250 $99 $129 -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --
Culling system -- -- -- BSP BSP BSP BSP BSP -- -- BSP BSP Portal Portal Portal Portal Portal BSP Portal BSP
LOD system -- -- yes -- yes yes yes yes yes -- -- yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes
Terrain ? -- -- -- yes yes yes yes yes yes -- -- -- yes yes yes yes -- yes yes
Shadow mapping -- -- -- yes yes yes yes --* yes --* yes yes -- -- yes yes yes yes yes yes
Dynamic shadows -- yes yes -- -- yes yes yes -- yes -- yes yes yes yes yes yes -- yes yes
Mirrors -- -- yes -- -- -- yes yes yes yes -- yes -- -- yes -- yes yes yes yes
Curved surfaces -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- yes -- -- yes yes yes
Shaders -- -- yes -- -- -- -- yes -- yes -- -- yes yes yes -- yes yes yes yes
Particle generator -- -- yes yes yes yes yes yes -- yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes
Beam generator -- -- -- -- -- -- yes -- -- -- -- -- yes yes yes -- -- -- yes yes
Bones animation -- -- yes -- -- -- -- -- yes -- yes yes yes yes -- yes yes -- yes yes
Expandable (plugin) -- -- yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes
Network system -- p-p -- -- -- c/s zone p-p c/s c/s c/s c/s c/s c/s c/s zone zone zone zone zone
Level editor yes -- yes yes yes yes yes -- yes -- yes yes -- -- -- yes yes yes yes yes
Model editor -- -- yes yes yes yes yes -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --
Script compiler -- ? -- yes yes yes yes yes yes -- -- -- -- -- -- yes -- yes -- yes
Script debugger -- -- -- yes yes yes yes yes yes -- -- -- -- yes -- yes -- yes -- yes
Script syntax -- own Chart C C C C Basic Basic VB -- -- -- TCL Pyth C -- C -- C
* No shadow mapper provided. Shadow mapping created with Quake® utilities can be displayed, but not commercially used for license reasons.
Chart based on manufacturer's specifications as of October 2002 - no responsibility is accepted for the correctness. If you find something incorrect, or if you want a certain engine to be included, or if you are a manufacturer and don't want your engine compared here, please notify [email protected].

Rob K
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Posted: 27th Jan 2003 19:23
Also the FAQ page compares DarkBASIC with A5 Ext - it does not mention DBP, which was created after April 2002. No worries.

NOBODY has a forum name as stupid as Darth Shader. I do.
BHoltzman
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Posted: 27th Jan 2003 19:25
Uhggg.. Like, that helps! Look at the footnote "*No shadow mapper provided" line. I think it was saying that if we use a third party utility to shadowmap and bring it into dbpro then we need another license. Ok.. That makes me feel better.

Richard Davey
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Posted: 27th Jan 2003 19:29
No it definitely compares DBPro, not DB. Just look at the column heading! It's also wrong on a few instances (DBPro doesn't support just peer to peer games for example).

Cheers,

Rich

"Gentlemen, we are about to short-circuit the Universe!"
DB Team / Atari ST / DarkForge / Retro Gaming
MrTAToad
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Posted: 27th Jan 2003 19:55
Hope your going to correct them...

Good news everyone! I really am THAT good...
http://www.nickk.nildram.co.uk/ for great plug-ins - oh my, yes!
Richard Davey
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Posted: 27th Jan 2003 20:02
I'll email them, but I can't force them to change their web page. The "shadow mapping" section is a little misleading IMHO, but there we go - they are our biggest competitor after all! (contray to popular Blitz belief - Conitec vastly outsell them).

Cheers,

Rich

"Gentlemen, we are about to short-circuit the Universe!"
DB Team / Atari ST / DarkForge / Retro Gaming
Rob K
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Posted: 27th Jan 2003 21:19
Maybe DBS could include a shadow mapping tool? Legally there are restrictions, but I think that there are freeware tools that can do shadow (or light as DBP calls it) mapping.

NOBODY has a forum name as stupid as Darth Shader. I do.
Shock
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Posted: 27th Jan 2003 21:27
hey, isnt intentionally supplying bad information about something, whilst knowing its not true, illegal? If not it should be

...::::ShockForge::::...

Ambient Software coming soon!
Rob K
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Posted: 27th Jan 2003 21:33
Sorry, I was looking at the old version of the chart I found by mistake.

Looking at comparative prices - DBPro has quite a few more features than the equivilently priced 3D Game Studio version...

Dynamic Shadows
Shaders
c/s multiplayer

NOBODY has a forum name as stupid as Darth Shader. I do.
Rob K
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Posted: 27th Jan 2003 21:36
you know... DBP could compete on level editing grounds if CShop were free to DBP users like Maplet was to Blitz...

NOBODY has a forum name as stupid as Darth Shader. I do.
Shadow Robert
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Posted: 27th Jan 2003 21:51
yup if you know that it isn't true you can get done for "false" advertisment and slander of a competing product ... its all within the Fair Trade laws

as for Shadow Mapping being created by id Software, i've never heard anything so absurd - as it has been used within 3D Programs for shadows long before Carmark created the Quake Engine. To that end it was even used within the Pseudo3D worlds of Doom, so how he can claim it was "created" when its actually a technique for something i don't know.

i always thought Pro used Peer-to-Peer, or atleast had the option there.

and DS - there is a BIG difference between Shadow and Light mapping
i've had to sit and explain it to so many coders so many times its not even funny anymore

Anata aru kowagaru no watashi!
Kangaroo2
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Posted: 27th Jan 2003 22:23
If they are supplying wrong iformation we should all gather together, go round there and kick their collective ar*es lol

Actually this seems a bit petty - anyway looking at the comparisions, DBPro fares well against the same price game studio - Personally tho If users try out both pieces of software (as I did) I'm sure the majority would prefer DBPro, especially for ease of programming and use. I agree about CShop being free tho, cos their world editor is free (even if its not that great )

Shadow Robert
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Posted: 27th Jan 2003 23:35
yeah but GameStudio is a C style language which is harder - plus its geared more towards FPS's ... which i know that Pro is too (to an extent) but now that FPSs are going out of fashion, who knows.

i'll have to give props to Halo (josh) for his attempt at trying to remake this tool in VisualBasic - but the tool is just not upto the task of level creation IMHO
Personally I prefer Qoole and released a QooleXP not too long ago, has actually faired well amounst the Beta Tester of FMTau.

I mean it isn't too different from Qoole '99 - just updated a few features (like fixxing the 3D Mathematics), added new features - suchas AutoLeak Sealing (i ironically called it PolySeal ) - as well as Patch Splines.
just generally jazzed up the GUI

think what will appeal to most is i can't charge for it, because getting a licence requires tracking down the whole old Qoole team ... and trust me i've tried but can't find all the buggers

Anata aru kowagaru no watashi!
BHoltzman
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Posted: 28th Jan 2003 02:29
To compete with 3d Game Studio, DBS needs to offer a complete game development solution. 3d Game Studio has it's own modeler and world editor and it integrates these with the scripting editor. They also have a distributable world editor that you can pack with your games to allow the 3d Game Studio's user's users to create mods for the games. And I'm hearing that 3d Game Studio has a stable output that requires very little tech support. They also have a higher price tag than DBPro. But it's unfair to compair version 5 of 3d Game Studio with version 1.3 of DBPro. There just hasn't been enough development time for DBPro yet. And I'm still amazed at just how much the DBS team has been able to accomplish in the ~year and a half of development that gone into DBPro.

But it seems that click and play and template/behavior scripting will be the way of the future. You can get a large number of prototypes out very quickly with this type of workflow and the rest is just polishing off the product.

Arrow
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Posted: 28th Jan 2003 02:55
Click & play scripting? Please, any programmer worth his mouse can make a click and play template. The problem with that methiod is that it'll limit your opions. There is no way you can create a point & click programe that'll have every opion like the language will. It's easier at first but after a while you'll start to think of thing that aren't included. Best stick to the language, much easier in the long run.

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...at least for now.
BHoltzman
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Posted: 28th Jan 2003 03:20
You know there are a lot of commercially successful products released that were created on 3d Game Studio. I can actually walk into compusa or frys or some other store and point at some items on the shelves that were done in 3d Game Studio. Judging by the last thread on what kind of money people have made with DB, I'd say that the language only approach proves to be cumbersome enough for most users that the products just aren't coming out as successfully. These are just my observations by looking around. Please, feel free to prove me wrong. I'd love to see people making large sums of money off of the hard work they put into a language only product like DB or DBPro.

Richard Davey
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Posted: 28th Jan 2003 03:27
Correct there are a lot of games available made with Game Studio on the shelves. But I can guarantee you they weren't made with the "click and play" version of it, but rather with the full scripting and SDK versions. If that's not a language only approach I'm not sure what is!

Cheers,

Rich

"Gentlemen, we are about to short-circuit the Universe!"
DB Team / Atari ST / DarkForge / Retro Gaming
BHoltzman
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Posted: 28th Jan 2003 04:17
Of course there's click and play in 3dGS Rich. The system is scripting or sdk AND the graphical world builder and modeling elements and assigning attributes to the elements. I think that a key to the success that people are seeing with 3dGS is with the workflow. You don't have to completely remove yourself as the artist to become the programmer because so much of the engine is already in place. Plus you don't have to make your own editors or other tools in order to get to work. So you don't have to change your mindset so drastically to work from one part of the project to another. (I'm assuming a team of one person to develop a game)

Please don't get me wrong Rich. I'm very attracted to DBPro. I've been watching its development from the first letter I was sent about it's creation and I still come to the site eagerly on a routine basis to see what's going on. DBPro has a very impressive list of capabilities that it will be able to perform when it's had all the bugs ironed out.

So what do I contend? These workflow troubles are the troubles that I experience when using a language only approach. So I'm trying to make a suggestion that may wind up helping me and hopefully a lot of other users to be more productive and successfull with what is done with DBPro. The guts of a robust system are almost ready. If we integrate the language with a model and world builder toolset then we'll have power, performance and a system that most people can get great results in and put our products on the store shelves.

Arrow
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Posted: 28th Jan 2003 08:43
The point I was trying to make is that a point & click system won't be abill to cover some areas like the langauge can. The '3D Game Maker' is a good example. It's a product made with DB that allows you to make a game with the click of the mouse. However, on these forum all I hear of it is that it sucks. The problem was it didn't let you do enough with it. Sure, it was simple and ,yes, you could make a whole bunch of games with it, but if you want to do something that the programer didn't think of the your out of luck. With the language your limitations are fewer, and with DBPro's abillity to make your own commands they are virually gone. If you plan to accully make a living out of this trade, you can't aford to be limited by your program.

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BHoltzman
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Posted: 28th Jan 2003 09:19
Ok, point taken Arrow.

indi
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Posted: 28th Jan 2003 09:41
Hehe ravens statement way up the top is the definitive answer that covers the shady area and thats a third party product usage anyway so its obvious.

I would settle for a few tutorials instead of an internal editor and the commercial usage requirements of known tools as an alternative to get a grip with bsp manufacturing.

DBS are getting closer to exporting DBO out as a CSG x and therefore we could make editors to export BSP maps from DBP
with a little more refining of the converter.

the Uv and light components would help with a tutorial also.

This part is hardbasket for me especially the lightmap.

Maybe a feature in DBP could be made to cook the textures with the internal light of DB so u could set up an scene with it and cook them.

Im sure there are tonnes of dynamic ways and non dynamic ways to acheive results for these things and it would be a good resource for anyone whos just starting or needs to refine an area.


Maybe each aspect of BSP creation needs a Paragraph to start each area in a Tutorial Group thats a definitive laymans expresion of this component.
Followed up by an example of each aspect and methods and tricks around this area.

Richard Davey
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Posted: 28th Jan 2003 11:09
"The system is scripting or sdk AND the graphical world builder and modeling elements and assigning attributes to the elements."

It's a scripting package which includes a modeller and level builder then - if their modeller didn't include a feature you required then you'd be in a similar boat to DB/DBPro in that you have to faff around trying to get a 3rd party application to export files suitable for using in your program without messing with them. The advantage is that if you start with their own modeller you obviously don't have this trouble. We are already looking at similar solutions - not with making our own modeller, but with picking one and working with the developers and making sure it works in harmony with Pro, same with textures, mapping, etc. Eventually you can have a powerful suite of tools that will all be enhanced in their own right but all work together.

Cheers,

Rich

"Gentlemen, we are about to short-circuit the Universe!"
DB Team / Atari ST / DarkForge / Retro Gaming
Shadow Robert
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Posted: 28th Jan 2003 15:19
Visual Portal World (fmtBSP) is currently on its 10th build to date, being used for the Ocarina Engine.

However i wouldn't say that it is entirely a complex format.
The hardest part was making the Visibilty Tree, as each world you make with it is cut into Grid Squares.

So you can imagine a 3D Grid ... In each of these grid points the first byte is a binary %110000 which means there are polygons within it, this is for the Vis Beams use - from that you then have the geometry cut down into the visible sections in a similar way to early BSP.

- Branch (Grid)
-- Boolean Fill
-- Leaf (Limb Mesh Geometry)
--- Node (Visible Polygons)

each Node used to be a dual byte - dword combo, where the byte was a boolean visible or not and the dword was the index number.

to make sure it was all small enough the whole world was Gzipped.

as the actual geometry is different to the Vis Tree, then the Vis tree was actually an Array tagged onto the end of the DarkBasic Mesh Export file.
So the format was almost no different, except you'd have a second set of UV Co-ordinates for the Lightmapping ... this would mean that all you did when you reconstructed the geometry was combine the first UV Map with the cross referanced second UV Map which covered the Entire world rather than just than one face (so the map construction was face based really)
This ment that it was relatively simple to combine both.

yesterday when i noticed that i could use Binary values within DBpro i've been tinkering with actually changing the geometry to Binary bits would save alot of space.

later on the collision would be calculated based on the Limb Mesh Geometry - so is basically extremities box based, but wasn't much of a problem ... as within the the Limb you has a first byte value to signify its type, assigned by the entity set you're using - it was a quite effective way to achieve this.

Also the vis beam would work within clear grids only.
So you'd vector a heading and check each grid, and then skip to the final grid to check.

This saves alot of calculation time over larger distances, because it isn't calculating say 6mile long Vis - it is only calculating the final block in the puzzle.
And yes using a vector to predict where it should be isn't really the most effective way - certainly kept the speed high.

i'll see what i can do for a tutorial for BSP when i have the time... becuase you'll be surprised how easi it is.
i have a new tech demo comming soon "Shaders"

Shaders, Decals and projection mapping is actually amazingly simple to do, as long as you're working as if on a small mesh - which the Visibility culling allows.

This allows you to create a single UV map for the entire model you wish to project to, and then you can simply plot and combine

Anata aru kowagaru no watashi!
BHoltzman
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Posted: 28th Jan 2003 18:41
Yeah. Better education is a must for the feature set in DBPro. There's still too much assuming from the manuals. That's a good idea Indi.

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