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Dark GDK / What is the big difference?

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Advancement Games
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Posted: 18th Mar 2005 00:40
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What is the big difference (besides speed) between DBP and DBSDK? Are there any new functions or commands? I know it is less pricy, faster, and is distributed by download, but what is the big difference?

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billy the kid
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Posted: 18th Mar 2005 01:23
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The difference is that you use C++ as opposed to Basic. And with C++ you have much more freedom. For example if you know anything about engine design, you could create a complete game engine using DGSDK as the backbone. So you could easily fill in the AI, realistic physics, etc into the engine. And you could write the engine in such a way that its very generic so that many games could be made with it. That would be quite hard and maybe impossible to complete with DBPro. This is just one example of the usefulness of C++ over Basic.
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Advancement Games
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Posted: 18th Mar 2005 21:31
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What C++ compilers does DBSDK support? Does it only support Microsoft?

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Gen
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Posted: 18th Mar 2005 21:43 Edited at: 18th Mar 2005 21:43
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Visual C++ 6 and Visual C++ .NET 2003 at the moment.

Edit: And Visual C++ 6 have to have I think sp5 or higher.

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Advancement Games
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Posted: 19th Mar 2005 00:52
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Why can there not be compatibility with DevC++ or Borland?

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OSX Using Happy Dude
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Posted: 19th Mar 2005 01:54
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Because they use a different format for .LIB files

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IanM
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Posted: 19th Mar 2005 02:41
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It's also because VC++ and Dev-c++ compilers have slight differences in the C++ language that they understand. The SDK and the DBPro libs were all written using VC++6, so it's not just a simple matter of recompiling using Dev-C++ - code changes are needed that are compatible with both. It's something I know a little about from the Interface library I used to distribute.

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Alberto
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Posted: 19th Mar 2005 03:36
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hello

"The SDK and the DBPro libs were all written using VC++6.."

Does it mean that any 3d engine originally written using VC++ 6.0 and Direct x can be used also with C++.NET 2003 with minor or even no adaptation ?

Thanks in advance

Alberto
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OSX Using Happy Dude
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Posted: 19th Mar 2005 03:41
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Generally yes.

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IanM
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Posted: 19th Mar 2005 03:51
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The VC++2003 version of the SDK libs were compiled using VC++2003 - the main reason that worked is that Microsoft work damned hard to ensure that upgrading to new compilers is safe and easy. Strange that they decided to reinvent the VB language though ...

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Posted: 19th Mar 2005 05:37
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Quote: "Strange that they decided to reinvent the VB language though ..."


Huh, lol... That is weird. Never thought about that.

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Advancement Games
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Posted: 19th Mar 2005 22:38
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Well, when will there be universal compatibility? I know that they give a version of VC++ 6 for free on the Microsoft website, but when will there be a universal compatibility?

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OSX Using Happy Dude
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Posted: 19th Mar 2005 23:43
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Quote: " Well, when will there be universal compatibility?"

You will probably be having a long wait.

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Advancement Games
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Posted: 20th Mar 2005 01:32
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Oh well. I you would like to talk about this further, I would be happy to offer a place in my forum that this conversation could be continued. But anyways...

It would be kind of cool if there were some newer features in the DBSDK. Also: can the enhancement packs for DBP be used with DBSDK?

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billy the kid
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Posted: 20th Mar 2005 02:04
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Yes and no. You cant use any of the enhancement packs on the TGC website as they are designed for DB. However some of the 3rd party enhancement packs also have a C/C++ version which you could use. But you will have to go to their site specifically. And actually Im sure you could find plenty of free 3rd party APIs that do some of what the enhancement packs do just by searching Google. In general if what you want/need is somewhat standard and you are programming in C++, there is probably some free API that already does it.
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Advancement Games
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Posted: 20th Mar 2005 03:08
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Intereting. That was something that I was always wondering about .

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Guyon
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Posted: 22nd Mar 2005 08:25
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Why can you not make commerical games with it?
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OSX Using Happy Dude
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Posted: 23rd Mar 2005 14:35
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Because the license is only for free programs.

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Guyon
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Posted: 25th Mar 2005 00:09 Edited at: 25th Mar 2005 00:10
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Yes but why? (not very informative Squidgy The Brick)

The license alone is a great reason not to buy it, and stick with DBpro
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MiR
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Posted: 25th Mar 2005 01:44
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Unless you don´t want to sell your games of cause. Then it works out cheaper! Well, unless you bought DBPro before hand though


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OSX Using Happy Dude
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Posted: 25th Mar 2005 01:49 Edited at: 25th Mar 2005 01:49
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Quote: " Yes but why?"

Because thats how its been decided it should be done... Its to keep costs down for the many people who wont sell their games.

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Advancement Games
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Posted: 25th Mar 2005 21:35
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That stinks. How would you know if you used the DBSDK with commercial games?

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OSX Using Happy Dude
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Posted: 26th Mar 2005 02:10
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Quote: " That stinks"

If you think so.

Quote: "How would you know if you used the DBSDK with commercial games?"

It does go by trust, but it is easy enough to find out...

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Guyon
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Posted: 26th Mar 2005 04:35
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Squidgy The Brick keeps talking, but he donesn't make sence.

DBpro: Makes comerical games and costs $ 89.00
Dark Game SDK:makes shareware and costs $200.00

How does that keep costs down?
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OSX Using Happy Dude
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Posted: 26th Mar 2005 05:36
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Because you wont be paying for a commerical license, of course.

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billy the kid
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Posted: 26th Mar 2005 05:46
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The end of this thread is funny. It basically goes like this:

Guyon: Why cant you make commercial games?

STB: Because it is a freeware license.

Guyon: Huh?

STB: Because it is a freeware license.

Guyon: Huh?

STB: Because it is a freeware license.

HAHAHAHA!!!
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OSX Using Happy Dude
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Posted: 26th Mar 2005 06:00
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Dont forget the shareware version.

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billy the kid
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Posted: 26th Mar 2005 06:08
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Oh yeah I forgot about that.
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Guyon
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Posted: 26th Mar 2005 09:33
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Nope, Missed the point again. Why would anyone want to buy this?
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billy the kid
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Posted: 26th Mar 2005 09:48
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Please refer to my first post in this thread for one of the reasons.

First of all, who cares about the license? If you really really need the commercial license, talk to TGC. I am sure they will be happy to make a deal with you. Otherwise stop whining about the license.

Now the reason DGSDK is a better option for "real" programmers in my opinion is that you can program in C/C++. Now someone who doesnt know C/C++ may not find that very attractive. However C/C++ allows for so much more freedom.

You do know why they have all those expansion packs right? Well one reason is money, the second is that you cant possibly make them using just DBPro. Well you could if you were a good programmer, but they would be very inefficient compared to C++ version.

Also you can program in an object-oriented fashion with C++. And I guess you sorta can with DBPro, or so Ive read. But really Basic is not designed for OOP. And what OOP allows you to do is make a very complex program, such as a commercial quality game, very easy to program. Now it is not easy to program a game, but it is a lot easier than the old fashioned way of programming.

Does that help? Do I need to go any further? Im sick of writing, but there are plenty other reasons to buy DGSDK.
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Guyon
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Posted: 26th Mar 2005 21:30
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Quote: "Now the reason DGSDK is a better option for "real" programmers "


DBpro still seems like the better choice.
Also I can program in C++, but choosing to use DBpro does not make you a "Real" programmer and me not. How arrogant can you get?
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billy the kid
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Posted: 26th Mar 2005 22:32
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Most experience programmers would much rather use C++ than Basic unless they dont know C++. All I meant.

If you still would rather DBPro, then thats fine. It is your choice. However choosing one over the over just because of the license is quite ridiculous in my opinion.
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Advancement Games
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Posted: 26th Mar 2005 22:40
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DBPRO RULES!! You can make something called a COMMERCIAL GAME! Now I think that DBSDK has more power, but there is no way to create commercial games because there is no licence. Guyou has the idea. Up with DBPRO!

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billy the kid
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Posted: 26th Mar 2005 22:53
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There IS a license, but you have to talk to TGC directly. They have said that many times in different places.
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Beavis
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Posted: 27th Mar 2005 00:07
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How many comercial games you did in DBPRO? I think that SDK is much better way than DBPRO (working IDE, debugger, better compiler, C++ and object oriented style is key element for me in bigger projects)

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OSX Using Happy Dude
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Posted: 27th Mar 2005 00:44
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And its much faster too - plus you have access to anything that C can interface to.

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Advancement Games
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Posted: 31st Mar 2005 06:43
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Well I do not dought that SDK is much better. It all depends on the cost of the licence. Does anyone know?

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Alberto
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Posted: 3rd Apr 2005 09:12
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"And its much faster too "

Did anyone make actual comparison tests?
Complete games or at least complete levels, I mean, not just a demo.
What's difference can we reasonably expect in terms of fps, for a first person shooter.
Min ? - Max ?
Thanks

Alberto
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OSX Using Happy Dude
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Posted: 3rd Apr 2005 20:06
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I've tried it on various graphical demos, some of which are on my site - the rest will be out when the DarkSDK update is out too.

And yes, the same code in DarkSDK is much, much faster than DBPro.

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Cellbloc Studios
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@magcon3:

Email TGC about a license cost. It cannot be very much. I am personally developing games using the DGSDK with complete intent to sell them. I could care less what the license cost at this moment. When I am happy with where my game is, I will talk to TGC and give them something to view and we will be able to work out the details from that point.

Now, I *KNOW* you may say something to the effect of "How can I spend X hours working on a game without knowing the price?". The way to look at it is this. It is usually a waste of TGC time to get all these emails "How much does this cost" etc. How many times people buy this DGSDK/DBPRO and not produce anything commercial? I guess is near 95%. As long as TGC have been around, I have *NEVER* seen an post such as "I cannot believe they want ten million for a license". I completely believe that once you present (that's the key point) a game to them, the cost of the license is either so small ($100-$5000) or none at all if you promote their DGSDK. Trust me, there are MANY SDK's out there that run into the high $$$ for license, but I can assure you that TGC is not one of them.

Hope this helps you look at a different way.

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Dsarchy
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Posted: 8th Apr 2005 10:45
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If you all where to be honest making a commercial game isnt easy. I think its all down to TCG and some clever marketing. I mean to make a commercial game in DBPro is very hard- making it professional and with the restrictions it caries i.e. slow frame rate (compared to languages like c++ of course) so looking at it from a business point of view they can say you can go commerial--as the chance of being able to produce a commercial is low-- and its something to write when selling the product

*

where as with the SDK it is obviously much more possible-- because of the flexability of the language. So as there is a greater risk of the game making it commercially TGC put licence restrictions on the product, i guess (and i dont mean this in a personal/insulting way mearly from a business viewpoint) to make money from this,extortion in away (which any company would do i guess as they are there to make a profit in return of providing a service)

dan

*please note the quotation isnt a direct quote it is a made up example
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Advancement Games
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Posted: 18th Apr 2005 08:08
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You can make commercial games with DBP. I know that it is hard, but if you use tactical/logical thinking, you will not have to go through TGC. I am making one now and I will not have to use them.

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Guyon
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I looked at the comparisons and do not see "much" faster. in in some areas it looked quite similar.

For the $200, it still does not look like a great deal compared to DBpro. and even less of deal compared to other such products.
..unless I am missing soemthing big.
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billy the kid
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Posted: 20th Apr 2005 04:31
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You are, but you seem to have made up your mind long before this thread was started. Thats fine. But stop arguing, discussing, etc please.
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Guyon
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Posted: 20th Apr 2005 13:53
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You know I "was" a very serious buyer of this product, as I already have VC++ 6, but with the poor explanations of why things are, and especially "billy the kid's" attitude "Real Programmers". Has totally soured me of continuing.
@Billy, Insults, guessing what I am thinking, and directing me of what I can and can't post is none of your business bud.

I am out of here.


@DBPvivi Interesting thoughts, and possible explanations. But I have a few DBpro programs already sold.
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re faze
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Posted: 1st May 2005 04:35
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you can also do a lot using the win32 dll's like user32.dll, and using tpc's like atom.dll
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Advancement Games
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Thanks. I hope that the Dev C++ Version will come out soon.

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