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Geek Culture / UK Elections

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David T
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Posted: 24th Apr 2005 08:25
I've just seen the Blair and Howard Paxman interviews.

Blair was pathetic really. His face was great when Paxman suggested Blair had done a deal with Brown over the PM job.

Howard looked more confident. I admit I was attracted by a lot of hte policies - especially the NHS bit - having the NHS pay half of what the op costs if an NHS patient has to go private. It clears up waiting lists, cuts costs and gets people treated.

He was also readily admitting he made mistakes in the past and did come across as very confident. He wasn't afraid to say bold things - for example to say that he believed there were things the hte private sector does better.

All I saw from Blair was hand gestures and perspiration

Paxman did give Howard a grilling on immigration though. To be fair to Howard though, a lot of the time he couldn't give numbers was because not being in power he can't talk with the authorities.

So my view is unchanged - I hope Howard wins because we get rid of Prescott, Reid, Brown and Blair.

Facts are meaningless.
You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true.
Philip
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Posted: 24th Apr 2005 11:08 Edited at: 24th Apr 2005 11:12
Sadly, and this is a Tory voter speaking, the statistical chances of getting a Tory government next time are highly remote.

There is an excellent swingometer on the BBC news website.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/shared/vote2005/swingometer/html/labcon.stm

As it (correctly) demonstrates, the Tories will need about a 11% swing to be invited by Her Majesty to form a government. To put that in context, even the greatest swing in modern British political history, namely the Tories' totally unexpected annihilation of the Liberals in 1906, was nothing like as large.

I hope the party benefits from some tactical voting by people trying to stop Labour being returned.

I'm in Greenwich which is an extremely safe Labour seat (Nick Raynsford). The closest opposition party here is Conservative. Hopefully some of the Liberals will vote Tory.

Philip

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Posted: 24th Apr 2005 17:59
Unforunately people have short memories...

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Calm down dear! Its only an election...
Chris K
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Posted: 24th Apr 2005 18:12
Quote: "I hope Howard wins because we get rid of Prescott, Reid, Brown and Blair."


Whoa! What's wrong with Brown? He's an absolute legend.

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David T
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Posted: 24th Apr 2005 18:13 Edited at: 24th Apr 2005 18:14
Pensions crisis?

Facts are meaningless.
You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true.
Chris K
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Posted: 24th Apr 2005 18:25
Lowest inflation for 60 years?
Lowest unemployment for 29 years?
Lowest mortgage rates for 40 years?
Longest period of economic growth for 200 years?

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Gir
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Posted: 24th Apr 2005 18:40
Cant stand Kilroy, cant stand Howard, Blair is a lier. Ill be voting Lib Dem, the y have a good chance where i live in Durham, already took over the council last election

I'm makin' a cake...
Philip
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Posted: 24th Apr 2005 23:10 Edited at: 24th Apr 2005 23:10
As regards Brown, I give him credit for being sensible enough to adopt Tory monetary policy. I could see an argument for saying he inherited low inflation and low unemployment from the previous Tory government, which is true, but this doesn't give him sufficient credit for continuing the same favourable economic climate for 7 years. He is, after all, the first ever Labour Chancellor not to wreak the economy during a period of Labour government. Quite a record.

My complaint, and here I associate myself with DavidT's remark, is with his fiscal policies. He has been responsible for appalling rises in indirect taxation, has promoted far too much bureacracy (thus stifling economic activity) and has caused a serious long term demographic problem with the country's pension provision. The result is that economic growth has stuttered along now for years and, as the population continues to age, we face a lot of problems in the future when, as all the parties acknowledge, we will have a reduced taxpayer base trying to support the pensioner baby boomer generation.

On the other hand, I'm looking forward to Brown superseding Blair as prime minister. He doesn't have the charisma necessary for a PM in this television age. Davis will succeed Howard and should be able to destroy Brown at the next election.

Philip

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Chris K
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Posted: 24th Apr 2005 23:46
Quote: "as all the parties acknowledge, we will have a reduced taxpayer base trying to support the pensioner baby boomer generation."


And the solution to this is lower taxes?

Right-o

I really don't understand how people can complain about taxes and public services.

Low taxes basically f**k the poor. Like the Tories' Health plan to partly pay for private health care. What about people who can't afford private health care? Really poor people, they are then paying for a bit of a richer person's health service.

It should not be like that.

It should be the other way around. For example, I go to private school, but my parents still pay tax that pays for state education. I am richer, therefore I am the one who should pay for other people's services.

Maybe the Tories will partly fund private education...

Oh and

Quote: "I could see an argument for saying he inherited low inflation and low unemployment from the previous Tory government, which is true"


Is this the Tory government of boom and bust or the coal strikes?

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David T
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Posted: 25th Apr 2005 00:04
Quote: "Low taxes basically f**k the poor. Like the Tories' Health plan to partly pay for private health care. What about people who can't afford private health care? Really poor people, they are then paying for a bit of a richer person's health service."


I actually think it's a good idea. You have two people both waiting for an operation. To treat each one it could cost the NHS £10,000. If one is willing to go private for the same standard treatment they get half of it subsidised.

So the first person goes to private hospital, only costs the NHS £5,000 instead of £10,000 and the second person, whatever their background, gets the operation first in place of the person who's gone private.

Both get treated, costs less, seems ok to me?

Quote: "It should not be like that.

It should be the other way around. For example, I go to private school, but my parents still pay tax that pays for state education. I am richer, therefore I am the one who should pay for other people's services."


I don't believe that because you're more well off you should punished for it. Admittedly, the state sector would probably crumble if all those in private schools didn't have to pay their tax.

My parents pay to send me to a private school and still pay education tax too - we're not complaining, and I think it's right everybody should pay the same taxes - but I think it's unfair if people more well off are targeted for being so.

Facts are meaningless.
You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true.
Benjamin
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Posted: 25th Apr 2005 01:49
Quote: "I really don't understand how people can complain about taxes and public services."

Thats because dispite the amount of tax, public services are crap.


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Chris K
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Posted: 25th Apr 2005 02:02
The NHS is crap because we have fairly low taxes.

Railways are crap because the Tories privatised them.

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Philip
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Posted: 25th Apr 2005 03:04 Edited at: 25th Apr 2005 03:14
Quote: "
"as all the parties acknowledge, we will have a reduced taxpayer base trying to support the pensioner baby boomer generation."

And the solution to this is lower taxes?
"


No it isn't. The solution is to encourage people to save prudently for their future and to ensure that satisfactory pension entitlement exists for people.

The present government's major failure has been its repeated raids on everyone's pensions. We've seen the massive reduction in tax relief for pension payments and the government actually increase the way in which the national insurance system is used as a fake tax. They've deliberately created a pensions blackhole to try and pay for their short term extravagant public spending promises.

My complaint is that Labour should either be honest and fund its public spending committments out of tax, or it is should not make those committments. Making committments and then raiding everyone's pensions to pay for them, is dishonest.

Quote: "
Thats because despite the amount of tax, public services are crap
"


A justifiable statement. I read recently that the IMF had issued a report saying that for every extra £1 we pay in tax since 1997, only about 20p goes on front line services. That means that for every £1, 80p is wasted on bureacracy, inefficiency and corruption.

Another scary statistic is that for every extra doctor and nurse, TWO tax collectors have been employed by the government since 1997.

Statistics like this make me angry. I work very hard for my income so learning that 80% of my tax is being wasted is like a kick in the teeth.

Quote: "
The NHS is crap because we have fairly low taxes.
"


This year £90,000,000,000 is being spent on the NHS. So its hardly a lack of expenditure that is causing the NHS to be "crap". On the contrary, its because its run by the government, and as everyone knows, governments are hopelessly bureacratic and inefficient. Hence the reason why private sector medical cover is in real terms actually CHEAPER than the NHS. Private cover per person costs considerably less than the equivalent cost to the state of the NHS per person. For example, assume that there are 60m people in the country. As the government pays £90bn thats equivalent to £1,500 per person. By contrast, my private BUPA covers costs my employer a measly £350 per year and provides a far far better service than the NHS.

I think its an outrage that the state is so inefficient.

In addition, taxes have gone up 66 times since 1997 and Council tax has gone up 70%. 70 whole percent!

Quote: "
Railways are crap because the Tories privatised them.
"


Since privatisation the level of monetary investment in real terms into the railways has increased by more than 400%.

As for Railtrack, since it was "re-nationalised", it has cost the taxpayer more than £1,000,000,000 in re-nationalisation costs than when it was Railtrack. Personally I believe it would have been better to spend that billion on Railtrack's infrastructure than on advisers.

Quote: "
Is this the Tory government of boom and bust or the coal strikes?
"


If you look back at the economic history of the 20th century, you'll find that Labour presided over a recession during almost every one of their terms in office. This is the reason why until New Labour the Tory government was always considered to be the party in whose hands the economy was safe. One of Blair and Brown's greatest achievements for their party has been to reverse this perception.

As for the coal strikes, if the complaint is that the Tory Government tried to break the overweening power of the unions, then my response is to applaud. The Unions HAD to be broken. One only needs to see the Winter of Discontent to see why. We now have the benefit of a balanced legal relationship between employee and employer.

Philip

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MrModest
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Posted: 25th Apr 2005 06:04
I just wish the tories would shut up about immigration. Then maybe we can move onto far more important matters like the enviroment. Most people that come to our country are good people and an asset. Yet their constant talk on immigration is giving a bad name to a lot of good people.

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Posted: 25th Apr 2005 06:07
Quote: "Yet their constant talk on immigration is giving a bad name to a lot of good people."

And if we didn't then we'll let in bad people...

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Rob K
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Posted: 25th Apr 2005 06:23 Edited at: 25th Apr 2005 08:25
Quote: "And if we didn't then we'll let in bad people..."


The number of so-called 'illegal immigrants' who are having a detrimental effect on the economy is far smaller than the number of those who legally emmigrated to England and are now paying taxes and contributing to society.


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Chris K
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Posted: 25th Apr 2005 07:07
The reason London is the best city in the world is because there is no majority race. Probably one of the only places in the world like that.

Just a thought.

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adr
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Posted: 25th Apr 2005 08:24 Edited at: 25th Apr 2005 08:25
David T > your summary of the proposed NHS subsidies is a little flawed I believe.

Quote: "So the first person goes to private hospital, only costs the NHS £5,000 instead of £10,000 and the second person, whatever their background, gets the operation first in place of the person who's gone private."


You're assuming a privately funded hip-replacement costs the same as an NHS hip replacement. Now, I'll play an anti-tory devil's advocate here and speculate that a private operation, like for like, costs much more than an NHS funded operation. I'm not an economist, but private businesses are there to make a profit, and not to "serve the people"; You can pay your illegal immigrant porters less than you pay a private hospital porters

But going back to the original point - Surely you can see the argument that you are subsidising those who would pay for private treatment anyway? Surely, you can see the argument on how that would benefit the more wealthy demographic. Let's not forget you're also subsidising the insurance companies too. A lot of people using private healthcare are not standing in the waiting room with a big breifcases full of money - they're on some kind of company-paid plan.

Sorry, but that plan doesn't wash. Give me figures, and I don't mean a headline-grabbing "50% off all private ops". I want a case study.

As for your comments about the richer portions of the country being "punished", I'd term it "social responsibility" To be honest, rather than pump more money into certain services and hope that'll wash the problems away (which does seem to be Labour's core tactic) I'd like to see firing squads arranged for people who have no intention of gaining some form of employment. Sometimes, I wish I had an uzi outside the job centre

Me? With my reputation?
Rob K
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Posted: 25th Apr 2005 08:28
Quote: "You're assuming a privately funded hip-replacement costs the same as an NHS hip replacement. Now, I'll play an anti-tory devil's advocate here and speculate that a private operation, like for like, costs much more than an NHS funded operation"


I suspect that new private hospitals might spring up to take advantage of these subsidies.

Equally, I expect that if the Conservative plans for private education payment (ie. they will pay up to £5500 a year for a child to attend a private school) were to be realised, special schools would appear to take advantage of these offer, or existing schools might try to work with this budget.


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Philip
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Posted: 25th Apr 2005 09:11
I certainly agree that this election campaign is focusing FAR too much on immigration. Its an important issue but I think the economy, crime, the NHS and education are equally if not more important.

Philip

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David T
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Posted: 25th Apr 2005 16:49
adr, I think Howard said something about the subsidies only being if the hospictal can provide the operation of the same quality and level of service as the NHS hospital.

Facts are meaningless.
You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true.

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