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Geek Culture / UK general election: GO OUT AND VOTE

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Philip
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Posted: 5th May 2005 05:47
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As the title says, tomorrow (Thursday) at the general election, if you have a vote, please do go to your polling station and exercise your democratic right. Vote for whichever party you like, just vote.


As many of you know, I spent 2003 working in Hong Kong, a territory now controlled by the evil communists in Beijing (and, trust me, evil is not an exaggeration for what those people are). I saw over a million ordinary people protest march for the right to vote. They knew while marching that they were being watched by the Beijing government and they knew that they and their families would face reprisals - as many already have. Trust me when I say that seeing so many people going to such effort and taking such risks to demand a right that all of us in Britain take for granted makes you realise how lucky all of us living in Britain actually are.

PLEASE GET OUT AND VOTE.

Thanks.

Philip

Cheer if you like bears! Vote Conservative and save the Country!
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Neofish
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Posted: 5th May 2005 05:58 Edited at: 5th May 2005 05:59
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I agree, you have the right to vote, use it.


However being only 16 I cannot vote..nor do I know who I would vote for if I could
Quote: "I'll give everyone laserbeam eyes!"


"OC192...that's like the speed of light"
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Mentor
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Posted: 5th May 2005 06:13
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ummm! leme see

the idiots
the morons
the imbeciles
the nazis

I just can`t decide , oh well!, more of the same for this vote, at least I will know what to expect and won`t get messed around while the new lot needlesly alter things that work just fine just to prove they are doing something (that something being pretty much what the other guys where doing but presented differently).

Mentor.

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OSX Using Happy Dude
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Posted: 5th May 2005 06:15 Edited at: 5th May 2005 06:15
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I'll probably do it on the way to work... Lets hope the grin is wiped of Blairs smug visage...

Visit http://homepages.nildram.co.uk/~nickk
Calm down dear! Its only an election...
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DBAlex
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Posted: 5th May 2005 06:15
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If I could vote I would vote Lib Dem probably...I like there policies this time...But seems my mum + dad will vote labour...


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OSX Using Happy Dude
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Posted: 5th May 2005 06:17
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Shame - they must be two memory chips short of a computer...

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Calm down dear! Its only an election...
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Neofish
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Posted: 5th May 2005 06:25 Edited at: 5th May 2005 07:38
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My parents are supporting labour too..I don't know the policies so I can't complain...I think that the public should be slightly more self supporting: pay for your own bloody health however I think extremely expensive operations (like the one on my dad when he had a brain haemoridge) and emergencies (not some kid fell over a scratched his knee, I mean like if a guy's leg fell off ) should be paid by the NHS, therefore making it slightly more fair. I guess I have this view because my family has always been reasonably well off, but my dad may be supporting labour because he started with the commoners (). I'm pretty sure the only reason we have money now is because he got into a good school (my school coincidently) and was offered a course (free I think) at Oxford

Needed a paragraph break I don't have many political views, but they do stray slightly towards the right wing..kill all the chavs

EDIT: Changing stuff.

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Rob K
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Posted: 5th May 2005 06:31
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I would like to strongly back Philip's rallying call.

I turned 18 on 3rd April, and the expected turnout amongst first time voters like myself is only around 31% *. This is appalling. You will be paying over a third of your total income to the government when you start working, over £4000 in income tax each year for a person with an average income of £24K. It seems absurd when people miss their only chance to have a say in how the money is spent.

If you really don't like any of the parties, vote Monster Raving Looney or spoil your ballot.

* http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/vote_2005/have_your_say/4508575.stm


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OSX Using Happy Dude
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Posted: 5th May 2005 06:35
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Trouble is, most people, like my sister cant be bothered... Mind you shes not on the electoral roll (and couldn't be bothered to sort that out either).

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Calm down dear! Its only an election...
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BatVink
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Posted: 5th May 2005 07:05
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Quote: "...and emergencies (not some kid fell over a scratched his knee, I mean like if a guy's leg fell off ) should be paid by the NHS, therefore making it slightly more fair..."


Is that fair? Someone can get drunk, crash a car, and be treated for free? While someone who has inherited bad eyesight, a crippling disease, or terminal illness has to pay for themselves?

Quote: "You will be paying over a third of your total income to the government when you start working"


£30K salary = £10K tax & NI, so that is your third.
Then take out your council tax and road tax.
When you spend £10, £1.50 is VAT.
Except if you spend it on petrol, when £8 in every £10 is tax.
Most of the products you buy are already taxed, thus hiking the price up.
If you get ill, your National Insurance doesn't cover medication, you have to pay for that, along with dental and optical treatment.
Don't forget your insurances also cover, by law, emergency service call-out fees and medical check-ups. The NHS recover all costs for accident related incidents from the insurance company, who in turn increase their premiums to you.

I could go on...

BatVink
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Neofish
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Posted: 5th May 2005 07:14
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Quote: "Is that fair? Someone can get drunk, crash a car, and be treated for free? While someone who has inherited bad eyesight, a crippling disease, or terminal illness has to pay for themselves?"

no, terminal illnesses are not emergencies...also I think drink drivers should be shot...I was saying if the injury was minor, then they should pay...seeming as I've seen my fair share of emergencies I agree the serivce should be there...

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Ace Of Spades
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Posted: 5th May 2005 08:21
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Quote: "
PLEASE GET OUT AND VOTE.
"


Do i have to? The UK elections arekind of across a big ocean...and I just don't think its worth it.(not to mention applying for my citizenship).

Digitalmodr
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Avan Madisen
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Posted: 5th May 2005 08:32 Edited at: 5th May 2005 08:33
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Some of the parties are saying "if you vote (Lib Dem for example) you're wasting your vote!", wrong, if everyone voted Lib Dem they would get into power as the new government, if everyone voted Tory, or Labour or even Raving Looney they would get into power, etc. etc.

The point is, the only wasted vote is one you don't use, if you want one of the parties in power, get off your arse and use your vote! Otherwise don't complain when some other bunch of morons get in power!

I'm 24 so I've only been able to vote in one general election so far, and I fully intend to vote this time round again.

Remember, if you don't vote in a democratic society, you don't have the right to complain about those who get into power!

Quote: "I think drink drivers should be shot"

No, drink drivers should have their driving liscence revoted with no possiblilty for ever getting it back, it's more cruel to them that way!

I don't suffer from insanity - I enjoy every minute of it!
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Neofish
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Posted: 5th May 2005 08:55
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shot is an expression, hung drawn and quartered is a punishment

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Richard Davey
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Posted: 5th May 2005 08:56
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I've already sent in my vote (I vote by post, no excuses to miss going then), will be interesting to see what happens. I hope to God that the Lib Dems don't get into power by some backdoor fluke, when they ran the County Council here they made a right dogs dinner of it. To see them in Government would scare me silly, probably as much as seeing the Conservatives back again (yes, I voted Labour)

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Philip
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Posted: 5th May 2005 09:16
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See? If Rich Davey can vote, ALL of you reading this who have a vote in this election can vote too.

PLEASE GO OUT AND VOTE.

Philip

Cheer if you like bears! Vote Conservative and save the Country!
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Mnemonix
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Posted: 5th May 2005 09:57
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Whats this vote thing again? Is this where we decide what we will be eating for lunch?.

I vote for FISH AND CHIPS!

Try out the controller:-
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Benjamin
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Posted: 5th May 2005 10:02
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Nice try mnemonix, but not quite random enough. Maybe next time.


"Lets migrate like bricks" - Me
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Dazzag
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Posted: 5th May 2005 17:07
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Quote: "Remember, if you don't vote in a democratic society, you don't have the right to complain about those who get into power!"
Really? Strange, thought this was a free country where we can do pretty much what we want. Which includes not voting then complaining about the government if I want to. If not then I assume you are voting for some Nazi party or something?

Cheers

I am 99% probably lying in bed right now... so don't blame me for crappy typing
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Van B
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Posted: 5th May 2005 17:36
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I'm not voting.

I voted for Labour for years until they got in, I'll vote for them again when things improve. At the end of the day, which party will leave me with the most disposable income at the end of the month, is what would win my vote. Or maybe a tax rebate once in a while, I haven't had a penny back from the government despite being in fulltime employment since I was 18. The only benefit I get really is the extra the government stumps up on my pension, which people my age have to get because that NI contribution we'll be making all our lives goes toward paying everyone elses pension but ours. Apparantly we all have to talk politics now otherwise we can't complain about anything - like if you don't vote your opinion does'nt count, erm - paying taxes gives us the right to bitch about everything the government does, regardless of whether we're responsible for putting them there or not.


Van-B

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Van-B's mom.
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OSX Using Happy Dude
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Posted: 5th May 2005 17:51
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I voted And if I can, then you can too...

That'll be a good slogan for an advert...

Visit http://homepages.nildram.co.uk/~nickk
Calm down dear! Its only an election...
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adr
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Posted: 5th May 2005 18:10
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I think it's interesting that the Tories main (or one of the main) promises is to lower taxes. No-one can argue with that as an idea.

Well, don't you think it's interesting that they have *lost* ground to the Liberal Democrats - an unashamed tax-heavy party?

I just think it's interesting that they appear to be barking up the wrong tree - the majority of the UK don't mind paying taxes, judging by the majority that the tax-heavy parties have..

Me? With my reputation?
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lagmaster
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Posted: 5th May 2005 20:46
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i'm voting labour.

all i can say is new deal has improved my life.

lagmaster - http://www.darkbasicnet.info <-- irc network for #darkbasic
- most of my websites down :/
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Rob K
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Posted: 5th May 2005 21:18 Edited at: 5th May 2005 21:20
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Quote: "Apparantly we all have to talk politics now otherwise we can't complain about anything - like if you don't vote your opinion does'nt count, erm - paying taxes gives us the right to bitch about everything the government does, regardless of whether we're responsible for putting them there or not."


I find that illogical. It would be like giving someone £5000 to buy a car, not telling them what you want to get, and complaining when they bring back a pink Ford Escort.

Quote: "At the end of the day, which party will leave me with the most disposable income at the end of the month, is what would win my vote."


Perhaps the Tories are the party for you then?


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Chenak
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Posted: 5th May 2005 21:41
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Not voting labour, dont fancy being in debt for 10yrs + because of student loans, especially when that money goes in the trash can or some parliment guys pockets. I'l agree to paying it when every single one of those morons in parliment pay £6,000 each towards their own uni education which they got for free
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Van B
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Posted: 5th May 2005 21:50
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Scarily enough I'd say that the Tories would leave me with the most disposable income - but everyone knows already that Labour are here to stay.

I know what your saying about not voting, but the thing is - the bits that annoy me most (national insurance for instance) is not gonna change, if anything our contributions will be going up and that's a given regardless of who is in government. So you won't hear me complaining when Labour get voted in again, but you will hear me complain when they drop all their vote-winning policies. It's like every 4 years the government promises us a brand new car - then parks a clapped out Ford Escort outside our front door with no working engine and a destinct lack of new-car smell.

It's not lethargy that stops me voting, it's lack of faith in the government to improve anything. My money is what's important to me because I support a kid with no benefits whatsoever, as a seperated male parent I have very little avenue for arguing my case - instead I just pay the CSA and pay 'her' rent out of my own pocket, then after that I have to fund my own existance. If they decided that fathers who provide additional support should get a tax break, then I might change my tune. It's cool, it's only another 2 elections that I have to keep paying this out for.


Van-B

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Van-B's mom.
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Richard Davey
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Posted: 5th May 2005 22:12
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Quote: "Not voting labour, dont fancy being in debt for 10yrs + because of student loans"


As someone who was a student under a Tory government it made no difference at all, we still all came out with massive student loan shaped debts that took years and years to clear.

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BatVink
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Posted: 5th May 2005 22:17
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Labour keep telling me not to vote Lib Dem. Conservative tell me not to vote labour. And the Lib Dems simply tell me why I should vote for them.

My missus has been bombarded with more waste paper than you would believe. She is a "key Demographic", mother of a young family. She's been targetted at the school gates, and also by pre-recorded messages down the phone.

All parties assume everyone is selfish. Personally, I want to know what they will do for low-income families, homeless, small businesses, schools...and more. I don't want them to hit me with small snippets of targetted information.

BatVink
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BatVink
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Posted: 5th May 2005 22:26
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Neofish, how about that for a coincidence. There is a government report out today suggesting that old people should have restricted access to the NHS! Obviously, they shouldn't have looked after themselves so well and lived too long.

The same report suggests that smokers and self-inflicted obesity are not reasons for restricting access, and neither is sexual orientation. Obviously a young, fat cancer-stick puffing uphill gardener of an MP that commissioned that report then!

BatVink
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OSX Using Happy Dude
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Posted: 5th May 2005 22:34 Edited at: 5th May 2005 22:35
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Quote: "As someone who was a student under a Tory government it made no difference at all, we still all came out with massive student loan shaped debts that took years and years to clear."

Fortunately, in my case, my parents borrowed most of it (I used enough to get an Acorn A3010). A year after completing University it was all paid back by them.

Visit http://homepages.nildram.co.uk/~nickk
Calm down dear! Its only an election...
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Philip
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Posted: 5th May 2005 23:00 Edited at: 5th May 2005 23:04
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I didn't come out of University with much debt but that was thanks to my Dad giving me about £2000 a year and me working every holiday and earning about another £3000 a year. Also, I budgeted quite well and didn't go absolutely mental on expenditure like some of my mates.

My own personal philosophy is that the state shouldn't over subsidise higher education. Its enough for the state to pay for the tuition fees and extend secured loans to students for the residential and social costs, which the student can repay relatively quickly in later life. Not only is this a good lesson to the student, but it should deter people from going to Uni who have no real interest or business in going (I'm referring to all the lazy wasters and all those who study joke subjects like basket weaving studies which all of us would have encountered).

Labour's current policy, which is actually just an adoption of prior Tory policy, is therefore about right imho.

Although I'm a Tory at heart, in my life I've actually previously voted Lib Dem, Referendum Party and, in a moment of madness, Green Party. My philosophy is that individual self responsibility and enterprise is better than corporatism, state intrusion and over-regulation. Hence I am a natural Tory. I would not in fact be here writing this now were it not for the Conservative government of the 1980s. Their privatisation programme enriched our family and allowed my Dad to effectively fund my way through law school.

Philip

Cheer if you like bears! Vote Conservative and save the Country!
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MushroomHead
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Posted: 5th May 2005 23:07
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Quote: "
I just can`t decide , oh well!, more of the same for this vote, at least I will know what to expect and won`t get messed around while the new lot needlesly alter things that work just fine just to prove they are doing something (that something being pretty much what the other guys where doing but presented differently).
"


You aren't the only one, I won't be voting anyone ... frankly I'm fed up of these chimps and totally disillusioned with their policies.
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Dave J
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Posted: 5th May 2005 23:10
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Whatever you do, don't vote for the Conservatives, our PM is already named Howard and you'd just be making things too confusing for us!


"Computers are useless, they can only give you answers."
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adr
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Posted: 6th May 2005 01:16 Edited at: 6th May 2005 01:21
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Philip > I've really had to rephrase this a couple of times in my head so as not to ruffle your feathers... I mean fur... whatever.

If your dad gave you £2,000 a year (and fortunate to get a job which pays £3000 per summer) then perhaps you're not the best candidate to talk about university finances?

I had a summer job every summer and I managed to earn about £1,500 at best. But other than that, I was dependant on loans. My dad (after 30 something years) went self employed and as such, was himself living on loans for a while. Frustrating really considering his business appears to be doing quite well now


I'm not going to say I was poverty stricken - I had a fairly comfortable life while at university, but as I'm sure you understand, I'd like to have borrowed less. I'll be paying off my loan for the next 7 years at £100 a month

However
I do agree that over subsidisation and this drive to get 50% of the population through university is silly. You just end up diluting the credibility of a practical education (practical, as opposed to academic where you just stay in uni reserarch for the next 20 years).

I just think that your post trivialised the cost of going to university is all.

Me? With my reputation?
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BatVink
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Posted: 6th May 2005 01:21
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Quote: "I would not in fact be here writing this now were it not for the Conservative government of the 1980s"


I would probably be somewhere else if it was not for labour. They introduced a half-cocked bill named IR35 which killed the IT contracting market. It was aimed at certain individuals who were "playing the system", but killed the market for genuine grafters like myself. As a result, I never raised the capital I needed for my business venture.

Hard-working Contractors thank Labour for a screw-up of gargantuan proportions. The net effect of IR35? More work for our European friends, and more GBP leaving the country in the form of EUR...and less revenue for our own government and country.

BatVink
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Sephnroth
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Posted: 6th May 2005 01:43
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I have not decided if I will vote yet. Personally I dont like any of the parties. I also roll my eyes at anyone suddenly pro conservitive because chances are if conservitive had been in power for this last run and not labour then I bet they would be pro labour. Everyone knows what the different parties are like, they have all been in power at some point, they are all good at sweet talking policies and all have their misgivings when in power.

Also, I find that most people, naturally, tend to vote for what they want rather than what the country needs. This is a base line flaw in the inherent in the system and well, it will always be there.

But what ticks me off the most is the people trying to bully you into using your vote when you dont want to. To those people: you are the worst.

People say that people died to earn us the right to vote. For the freedom of the whole thing. That is somewhat right, but I see it as people died to give us the CHOICE. Choice is afterall the core of all freedom and that is what people were willing to die for. By putting pressure on people to vote you are essentially infringing on that persons freedom and undermime everything that was fought and died for.

Also the idea of voting for someone for the sheer hell of it just to use your vote makes me sick. Its the stupidest way of doing something ever. People say if you dont vote you loose the right to complain about who ends up in power? Thats complete bs also. Infact, I would say we had more right than anyone else to complain. If you vote for someone and they get into power and then do something messed up then you have really lost the right to complain about them because you helped to put them there. By not voting I have done my part to make sure that I didnt help anyone i didnt agree with into power so when it all comes crashing down i'll be one of the few people entitled to say "i told you so." But why should I use my right of voting to help someone into power if i have doubts about any of them? We are talking about running a COUNTRY here. Not just your personal views on fox hunting or how much you think a year of university should cost you. These things do count for sure, but peoples votes effect things much further than your doorstep. Voting for someone "just because you can" is irrisponsiable, stupid and liable to end up biting you in the ass at the end of it.

I may go just to spoil my vote and make a deliberate point about what I think of everything. If I have time. I wont go out of my way to show them something that they already know by my abesence there.

[07:16:59-pm] « Sephnroth » you were dreaming about lee...
[07:17:13-pm] « Mouse » stfu
[07:17:22-pm] « Mouse » he was hanging himself lol
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Dodo
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Posted: 6th May 2005 02:06
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I'm too young to vote, but next time round I'll have just turned 18.

Part of solving the problem is actually noticing that the problem is there in the first place

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Van B
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Posted: 6th May 2005 02:25
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Well said Sephnroth.


Van-B

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Rob K
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Posted: 6th May 2005 02:36
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Quote: "I may go just to spoil my vote and make a deliberate point about what I think of everything. If I have time. I wont go out of my way to show them something that they already know by my abesence there."


Your absense will suggest apathy not protest. If you want to show them that you do care, but you disapprove of all of the candidates, then spoil your ballot, or vote Looney.


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Neofish
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Posted: 6th May 2005 02:39 Edited at: 6th May 2005 02:47
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Quote: "Neofish, how about that for a coincidence. There is a government report out today suggesting that old people should have restricted access to the NHS! Obviously, they shouldn't have looked after themselves so well and lived too long.

The same report suggests that smokers and self-inflicted obesity are not reasons for restricting access, and neither is sexual orientation. Obviously a young, fat cancer-stick puffing uphill gardener of an MP that commissioned that report then!"

I assume that is an attack on me...I can't understand it however it does appear that you can't differenciate between a scratched knee (VERY short term minor) and a any of the things you've posts...which are LONG term. I don't explain myself very well but I think far too much is being spent on the NHS without much expence...

Due to being reasonably well off there's only ever been once where my family couldn't pay for treatment, but we didn't...What I'm trying to say is that poor families IF they can afford it, should pay for short term AND MINOR injuries (my example was a scratched knee..you can just slap some antiseptic on and leave it) while people with long term problems OR major injuries can take money from the NHS even if they can afford it..I'm not saying the NHS should be restricted for anyone who hasn't lost a limb!

I hope that clears some stuff up, I can understand what I've written

EDIT: I voted Looney in the school election, but only because I'm friends with the candidate Otherwise I would have voted Labour based on their presentation alone: it was a 5 minute video, backed with some slapstick type music, showing the guy running through town making a twat of himself over laid were the Labour policies... It seemed popular with everyone (it helped that the Green parties presentation was unreadable and badly made, and the Tory's one didn't even work! )

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Philip
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Posted: 6th May 2005 03:07
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@Adr

Not that fortunate to get a job for £3,000. I worked like a slave - absolutely worked my socks off.

I think we are in agreement though. We both agree that in principle it'd be nice if students didn't leave university with large loans. However, I think we also agree that there is a price to be paid for higher education and its important for the state to strike a balance between the extent of state funding (which remember also comes out of the pockets of people who haven't been to Uni and never will do) and the need to ensure we have a good tertiary system and we produce talented educated people.

I shouldn't be understood to say that Uni is cheap. Its not. My point is that the system is not entirely unreasonable or unjustified.

@Sephnroth

If you genuinely do not believe in the policies of any of the parties on the ballot in your area, then I agree. Don't vote.

My post is aimed at the overwhelming majority of people who do support a particular party's policy or are inclined to a particular party but simply can't be bothered to vote.

Theres a distinction here between being disenfranchised (as you say you are) and pure apathy.

I'm afraid your argument about personal self-interest versus the country's interest is, at least theoretically, flawed. In theory, in a democracy, the combined interests of the people are the interests of the country, because the state and the people are one. Obviously in practice thats not correct because there are many schools of thought, which parties seek to represent. So the electoral system exists to determine which school of thought is dominant at the time of the election.

Any constitutional theorist will tell you that people SHOULD vote for their self interest. Its how democracy determines what is in the countries' interest.

Philip

Cheer if you like bears! Vote Conservative and save the Country!
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BatVink
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Posted: 6th May 2005 04:06
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Quote: "I assume that is an attack on me"


Neofish, not at all, apologies if that's how it came across.

Just pointing out that we discussed the issue, then the government came out with a bizarre report on the same subject. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, and your point didn't differentiate between different groups, it was all-encompassing. The government report, however, suggests punishing those who looked after their health, whilst caring for those who self-inflict their conditions.

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Ian T
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Posted: 6th May 2005 04:08
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Quote: "The government report, however, suggests punishing those who looked after their health, whilst caring for those who self-inflict their conditions."


Well that's how it works with everything, isn't it? Someone who works harder to get a better job pays more taxes...

"Grif, if there's one thing I've learned working with you, it's there there's always a margin for error."
"It's pronounced margarine, dumbass!"
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Sephnroth
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Posted: 6th May 2005 04:12 Edited at: 6th May 2005 04:14
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That looks great on paper phillip - but the problem lays in people voting based on what they want, not on what they NEED.

This is where democracy pales compared to dictatorship. Dont get me wrong, im not saying we are worse off. But a -good- dictator who isnt a mad crazed evil person bent on world domination can be alot better for a country than a democracy. Its all about just because something is comfortable doesnt mean its good for you.

Take for example something like smoking (im a smoker) - it would be in the best interests of the general population for it to be banned. We would become healthier and fitter as a people in general. This is ignoring the loss of country funds for the sake of this example.
A choice to ban smoking would actually be the best thing for the PEOPLE of this country - but if some party put that in their policey would people vote for him? Hell no, they WANT to smoke, they LIKE smoking.

Take that example and apply it to all sorts of things. What the combination of people voting for adds up to is not what is best for the country, just the selfish wants of each person. Selfish needs I can live with, selfish wants? no.

Then add into the equation say 50% chavs (no offence people, i mean the really narrow minded, clubbing and sex and pot is all i care about chavs). What do they know about whats best for the country? They cant even tell whats best for themselfs half the time.

No, I wish what you said would actually work on anything but paper, but it doesnt.

Anyway i started this post ages ago and have only just finished because I have indeed been down to the polling station. What did I do there? Anyones guess

edit - just in closing, eventually if countries are going to strive to be a little bit more perfect and make the world a better place some things will have to happen here and there that people just wont like. Its comparable to working for your money.

[07:16:59-pm] « Sephnroth » you were dreaming about lee...
[07:17:13-pm] « Mouse » stfu
[07:17:22-pm] « Mouse » he was hanging himself lol
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Benjamin
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Posted: 6th May 2005 04:16
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Quote: "What did I do there?"

You bought some fish and chips.


"Lets migrate like bricks" - Me
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Neofish
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Posted: 6th May 2005 04:26
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Quote: "Neofish, not at all, apologies if that's how it came across.

Just pointing out that we discussed the issue, then the government came out with a bizarre report on the same subject. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, and your point didn't differentiate between different groups, it was all-encompassing. The government report, however, suggests punishing those who looked after their health, whilst caring for those who self-inflict their conditions."

Accepted. I don't speak very good English (despite being as English as one can be), so I didn't itterate myself very well (also I can't read )

Quote: "Then add into the equation say 50% chavs (no offence people, i mean the really narrow minded, clubbing and sex and pot is all i care about chavs). What do they know about whats best for the country? They cant even tell whats best for themselfs half the time."

From experience, I would say not at all

I'm all for an Elitist society, as long as it isn't based on height *short*

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Philip
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Posted: 6th May 2005 05:10 Edited at: 6th May 2005 05:11
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@Sephnroth

Ah yes. The want/need dichotomy. I see your argument but I don't agree with it for one simple reason: who decides what people actually need over what they want? There is no objective basis on which to answer my question because one man's need is another man's want.

Hence why laissez faire economists correctly challenge the whole dichotomy by pointing out that human needs are actually de minimis. They amount merely to a reasonable amount of food and water, shelter and some warm clothing. Absolutely everything else could be said to be a want.

It follows that if there is no genuine distinction between wants and needs, then there is no genuine distinction between voting on your wants or voting on your needs.

Finally, its not the job of countries to make the world a better place. Its the job of people - each and every one of us - to make the world a better place.

Philip

Cheer if you like bears! Vote Conservative and save the Country!
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Rob K
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Posted: 6th May 2005 05:28
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Quote: "This is where democracy pales compared to dictatorship. Dont get me wrong, im not saying we are worse off. But a -good- dictator who isnt a mad crazed evil person bent on world domination can be alot better for a country than a democracy. Its all about just because something is comfortable doesnt mean its good for you."


'Good' and 'Evil' are subjective, so how can one person possibly decide what is 'good' and what is not?

This is why we have an electoral system. The resulting governments will ideally pass laws that fit in with a weighted average of society's views at the time.

As Philip pointed out, our basic needs are very limited, our wants are infinite. Prisons provide inmates' basic needs, but I'm sure you agree that the world would not be a better place if everyone spent their entire lives behind bars.


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BatVink
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Posted: 6th May 2005 05:41 Edited at: 6th May 2005 05:42
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Well...I have voted. Despite Nick griffin, the leader of the BNP being in my constituency, I can proudly say he didn't even come 4th in my deliberations (there are 4 candidates). Yes, that's right, I threw away the chance to have guns in my neighbourhood, and civil war in my street. And having Dutch blood running through my veins, I obviously wouldn't be welcome. I kiss goodbye to the opportunity of being paid to leave this fair isle, and to have my choices removed by refusing foreign goods to be imported into the country (mmm, no more Playstations, X-boxes, Gamecubes, gameboys and DS's, no American films, video cameras, business-strength servers. No rice, pasta, bananas, spices, sugar, tea or coffee. No coca-cola, pepsi, sprite or 7-up. This is a cunning policy!)

OK, my point is this. I realise people have many reasons that they don't want to vote. And although tactical voting is not ideal, surely it's better than all of the above? Could you stand up and say you didn't vote, and that's why your neighbour now has a gun? It sounds extreme, but if the "ordinary" people stay away, and the extremists vote, it could happen one day.

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Chris K
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Posted: 6th May 2005 06:10
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Quote: "Whatever you do, don't vote for the Conservatives, our PM is already named Howard and you'd just be making things too confusing for us!"


What's more, our Howard hired the same Aussie spin-doctor that won the election for your Howard.

The two things that annoy me about this election:
- Labour saying don't vote Lib Dem
- Tories refusing to acknowledge Lib Dems

On Sky News there was a really obnoxious Tory guy being a complete tit to a Lib Dem woman, saying this is a two horse race.

Wrong.
This is a one horse race.

What's more it is more likely that Lib Dem become the main opposition than Tories become the government.

I mean, why would anyone (or any real number of people) swing Labour --> Conservative?? Why would anyone swing Labour --> Lib Dem? Iraq.

If I could vote nationally it would be Labour.
In my constituancy it would be Lib Dem tactically.

I recon Labour will just keep a 3 figure majority, maybe as low as 75/80.

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