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Geek Culture / Uhhh oh the google morph Microsoft mad "ARGH"

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UnderLord
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Posted: 5th May 2005 06:47 Edited at: 5th May 2005 06:55
http://www.fortune.com/fortune/technology/articles/0,15114,1050065,00.html?promoid=netscape

Microsoft trying to kill google. But google is trying software.

Microsofts response "ARGH we kill you......."

[edit]
makes me wonder if this will really happen or not? heh.

http://www.halorising.com/epic/ols-master.html

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Ace Of Spades
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Posted: 5th May 2005 07:03
That is awesome! Finally someone to help battle microsoft

Digitalmodr
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Posted: 5th May 2005 07:07
Definately an interesting spot to watch. There was also talk that because of Microsoft's planning/launching of Longhorn as the next generation OS, but they dropped specific and possibly killer APIs that would change the face of conputing forever (yeah right!). This would open up the market for the likes of Linux Distros and even Apple to jump on the warwagon. Gate's Ring will be tossed into the fires of mount doom eventually.

Paul.


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Raven
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Posted: 5th May 2005 07:56
Apple could already take Microsoft if they wanted.
Problem being is Microsoft own the majority of Apple now, you can pretty much think of Apple as thier solution to the Linux problem.


Problem Microsoft face right now, is for once they don't have one clear opponent, and they're not in a position to keep them at bay.

While providing a better more useable cross-platform development solution to Java with .NET, and furthermore heavily relying on it for thier next generation software. The door has been opened to thier competition to bridge the gap that has kept them from seriously competing.

Compatibility

This is a double-edged sword though. In order to use .NET to gain compatibility, it means releasing control of the direction of the market to Microsoft.

Recently the Graphics and Processor industries have seen this very battle take place. The results have been very eye-opening.
However in both cases, it has shown that superior innovation has pushed the market forward and gain the capital.

You can only coast on old technology for so long no matter it's speed. 3dFX just as ATI are begining to learn, have clearly been shown ... you can't win by sticking to what works.

Amiga made this fatal mistake in the early 90s

This said, is does all seem more like a set back. Google is powerful, and it's true right now the *only* thing providing it with the edge is innovation. Once that edge wears off though, Microsoft will strike, and if history repeats itself.. it will be fast and hard.

The main problem with Google is it's effectively one of the largest Anti-Microsoft companies in the world. Quite literally everyone there either dislikes the company due to years of trying to beat them, so becomming like an Ahab quest.. or they're guys who know how Microsoft works inside-out.

There will in the end be only so much stale-mating that can be done though. While Microsoft is happy trying to fight this like an old war, Google will retain the edge.. as soon as they step in to Google battleground though, that's when things are going to climax fast. Simply be a case of which company burns out first.

Ace Of Spades
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Posted: 5th May 2005 08:05
Google people are geniouses. Microsoft people are no longer considered geniouses or "top of their trade", true Microsoft came in with bang, but I don't think they will have the power to keep up with such rapidly growing companies like Google. Yea, Microsoft is always coming out with new stuff, but I think Google will make a strike, a single strike, but a Huge strike on the software market. Then either Microsoft will fall rapidly until it accepts its defeat, OR, Google will be offered more money than they can decline, and merge with Microsoft. Personally, i hope its the first.

Digitalmodr
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Jeku
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Posted: 5th May 2005 08:35 Edited at: 5th May 2005 08:35
Quote: "Apple could already take Microsoft if they wanted."


Oh please. Apple's market cap is roughly $3 billion, while Microsofts is over $270 billion. There is NO way Apple could "take" Microsoft.

And Google was already made an offer by Microsoft--- quite a generous one if I remember correct, and they declined. I don't see it happening again, and if it does, I don't see Google accepting.


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Ace Of Spades
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Posted: 5th May 2005 08:45
Quote: " and if it does, I don't see Google accepting."


When dealing with business, there is always a point where someone will sell. If Microsoft wants them really bad, I think they could pull off an offer that Google couldn't decline. I just don't think Microsoft is to the point of wanting to spend that much money on it already.

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Posted: 5th May 2005 09:45 Edited at: 5th May 2005 09:46
Right now MS could potentially get them via a hostile takeover, but back when MS offered them money, before they went public, they wouldn't sell no matter what. Since the Google founders were already destined to become billionaires, I doubt that BillG could have offered them anything that they would take.


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Ian T
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Posted: 5th May 2005 11:13 Edited at: 5th May 2005 11:14
I mentioned this on the IRC about a week ago...

Microsoft's concept of intelligent searching is an excellent concept, but I'd be very surprised if Google wasn't already doing that. They keep expanding-- mail, desktop search, movies, maps, TV... it took MS two plus years just to fix MSN search, and it still isn't as good as Google was two years ago.

So I think the real question is if the geniuses making the killer decisions at Google HQ can keep up long enough to stand Microsoft's siege. It seems unlikely, but who knows? As APEX observed, Microsoft's got to go down some day, and with Longhorn looking as crappy as it is, I can't think of a more likely time than now.

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UnderLord
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Posted: 5th May 2005 11:20
Every company reaches a high point a point to which it can no longer amaze people a point to which it will start its decent into nothing Microsoft has had its turn now its googles just like Microsoft will eventually die out so will google even if it takes 60 years from now.

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Jeku
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Posted: 5th May 2005 11:57
Perhaps I'm naive, but I feel that just because Longhorn looks crappy to select people, does not matter one bit. The release date is the end of NEXT year, so they have tons of time to fix it up. Even then, Windows has what, 96% of the OS market? It's not going down soon--- *definitely* not because Longhorn looks crappy.

I happen to like the way Longhorn looks, as will many others. Sure you'll have your late adopters--- those who continue to use Win2K and XP, but a large percentage of people will upgrade immediately.

Quote: "As APEX observed, Microsoft's got to go down some day"


Why? Microsoft makes money from their other non-OS software, too. And all this speculation about Google's OS (GOS?) is just that--- speculation. Even if they released a free OS, who will use it? Probably less than the amount of people who use Linux. Linux is free, too, and you don't see that toppling Windows anytime soon.


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Ace Of Spades
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Posted: 5th May 2005 12:07
Who will use it? I will use GOS, and the 5billion of my friends on this earth.(not friends with chineese, so only 5billion). So 5 billion on "GOS" and 10 people on Windows(the rest are too poor). That will kill Microsoft, just you wait. Or at least i will find some way to kill Bill

Digitalmodr
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Posted: 5th May 2005 12:38
Yeah, they're certainly not going down anytime soon. They have too much money for that. I wouldn't praise Microsoft or Bill for the ability to produce brilliant technology, but I would praise them for their business skills. They will find a way to come out on top, or at least close enough for their liking and financial security.

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Ace Of Spades
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Posted: 5th May 2005 12:44
Until "Bill" mysteriously disappears

Raven
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Posted: 5th May 2005 12:47
Quote: "Oh please. Apple's market cap is roughly $3 billion, while Microsofts is over $270 billion. There is NO way Apple could "take" Microsoft."


Market share means nothing. Microsoft isn't yet making much of a turn over on the X-Box, but thier market share has risen by almost 100% in the past 12months.. With them passing a pre-emptive on the market with thier hardware, there is a strong tipping that it will topple Sony.

Nintendo before that had over 85% of the Console market, and they believed that Sega were thier biggest threat. Now look at it. Sega who were out-selling Nintendo in the early 90s is now desolved and divied up in to sections controled by Nintendo and Sony.

Sony have been the top console dogs for over 10years afte entering the market with what technically was a souped up 32bit SNES with CD-Rom...

Microsoft themselves have said it quite often. The trick to beating an opponent isn't to make something technically better, just to make something people want to use.

This is why Explorer is *still* used more than the other browsers, not because it's packaged with Windows. I remember a time when Netscape with AOL was installed and set as default. The reason it took over so quickly was because it was easier to use.

It didn't look like a science lab experiment it was simple to figure out what did what.

If Apple chose to, they could slash thier prices in half and they would make a killing. Remember when the iMac's first came out, they were popular as hell despite the expensive price tag.

Apple made a deal with Microsoft quite a long time ago, that they would produce for a nitché market, and Microsoft would leave them alone. At the time, it was a good deal for Apple.. right now with the ever growing Graphics Industry and Apple being the 'go to' guys when you want a powerhouse workstation that isn't going to break the bank. They have the potencial of becomming much more though.

Especially being able to boast thier computers have the same CPU/GPU as the latest consoles. Seriously that would be a huge selling point for gamers... and there are ALOT more console gamers than there are home computer users.

Consoles currently outnumber Home Computers 2:1. (No doubt one of the reasons Microsoft pushed for getting in to the whole console war)

This is something to clearly remember about Microsoft too.
Google might seem impressive right now, but they can't keep up the creative juices and technology edge forever. The company as a whole are also limited by thier market.

Microsoft are spreading themselves out. Sure the OS is still thier primary trump card, but they currently supply TV, PalmTop, Game Consoles, Music Centres, Servers, OS, Office, Games, Input Hardware, as well as partner in many many other areas.

Not to mention their divisions dedicated to development tools and help (which don't only support Windows, but MacOSX, Linux and any third party solution). Not forgetting they're also the innovators behind .NET and C#... two products that even Linux developers are having a bad time badmouthing.

You look around you and Microsoft's influence is everywhere. While thier OS remaning on top was what kept them in power ... the problem is for others that they've had the time to themselves not to just become complacent and not worry about competition, but to expand in to new territories.

Monopolies on Computers is one thing. Microsoft currently practical vie everyday with Sony for owning the digital age.

Google despite all the products, are still the same one trick pony. Relying on thier search engine algorithm.

Desktop Search, Web Search, Ad-sense by topic search, Web-Blogs, and Email.. Sorry but 90% of all ISPs provide you with an email account. Not 2GB of space, but honestly... who the hell gets 2GB of email?

Generally speaking I get around 2-3MB worth a day, most of which ends up in the junk filter. Most people I know also effectively only have a few real emails that don't end up in the junk filter.

Space is pretty irrelevant as unless you passing some new team built of your program or whatnot most ISP emails give you 30MB space, which is more than enough to get the email you want.

Microsoft themselve actually give you unlimited space. They just send you nasty warning emails saying you've gone over the limit, and to download the file within X (i think it's 7) days before they delete it.

I certainly as hell can't see of any real legal reason someone would need 2GB... not any that wouldn't have that person having thier own unlimited company email.

So what's left? Froogle? When you look at the grand scale of things, while the google moogles are getting rich... really that appears to be all they care about.

Microsoft this is a matter of Ego really, but for Google it's like.. They're making the cash, so meh!

Ian T
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Posted: 5th May 2005 13:00
Congrats for explaining why, in Bizarro World, Google would not be popular.

Fact is, they are.

I rest my case

"Grif, if there's one thing I've learned working with you, it's there there's always a margin for error."
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Dave J
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Posted: 5th May 2005 13:28
I think the only important thing about this is that competition means the consumer wins, we're already reaping the benefits over the 2 companies fighting and as long as both continue to exist, things will just keep getting better for us.


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Damokles
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Posted: 5th May 2005 13:29
Well, I think Google can also create some kind of messenger soon : combining the advantages of msn messenger, skype and yahoo messenger. Could be funny

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Ace Of Spades
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Posted: 5th May 2005 13:32
GoogleEssenger
OR
GIM: Google Instant Messange

Then trillian would have to add it up

Jimmy
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Posted: 5th May 2005 17:31
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Posted: 5th May 2005 18:34
Since google has been floated on the stock market, why don't Microsoft just buy 49% of it - then they'd be the largest share holder. (Yes I realise 51% is the majority of the shares - but the remaining 51% will be divided up with the company and the public).

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Jeku
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Posted: 5th May 2005 19:30
Quote: "Market share means nothing. "


Yes, but your quote said that Apple could take Microsoft, which is laughable at best. If you think market share means nothing, then lets go with enterprise value.

Apple: $23.55 billion
Microsoft: $234.78 billion

Quote: "Yes I realise 51% is the majority of the shares"


Actually 50% plus one share is majority.

Quote: " I think the only important thing about this is that competition means the consumer wins"


But can you honestly say you're a consumer of Google? Since you're using Windows, you're a consumer of Microsoft. 99% of Google's stuff is free. To me they're a good example of a multi-billion dollar company that makes next to no profit. Their bubble will burst.

Don't get me wrong, I use Google search everyday. I hope they're making enough money through ad-sense and whatnot, but the fraudulent click-thrus are shooting through the roof and they don't have long-lasting sellable products.


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The Nerd
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Posted: 5th May 2005 21:00
google rocks!

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Ace Of Spades
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Posted: 5th May 2005 21:06
Quote: " google rocks!"


I second that.

So what happens now...does Google become President or King or something? or do we need a third?

Megaton Cat
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Posted: 6th May 2005 01:26 Edited at: 6th May 2005 01:28
Someone one already started this thread and we had a nice long conversation. Let's just skip to the part where Jimmy pollutes the thread with nonsense.

EDIT: Just read the GatesVSGoogle thing. Pretty silly of Microsoft to start acting like a gang...

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Megaton Cat
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Quote: "inux, the free operating system that Gates once scoffed at, is fighting Microsoft for share in both the server and desktop markets, forcing the company to do the unthinkable: offer customer discounts."


LOL

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Jimmy
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Posted: 6th May 2005 03:37
I'm rooting for Gates. Stupid google, stupid commies.

Raven
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Posted: 6th May 2005 03:38
Quote: "I think the only important thing about this is that competition means the consumer wins, we're already reaping the benefits over the 2 companies fighting and as long as both continue to exist, things will just keep getting better for us."


Exactly. It's not like either company is going away anytime soon.

Quote: "But can you honestly say you're a consumer of Google? Since you're using Windows, you're a consumer of Microsoft. 99% of Google's stuff is free. To me they're a good example of a multi-billion dollar company that makes next to no profit. Their bubble will burst."


That's my point above really.. Google is in it more for the money, but while Microsoft see them as a threat, our products and experience will be enhanced as a result.

In other words everyones a winner!

Ian T
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Posted: 6th May 2005 03:45
Quote: " To me they're a good example of a multi-billion dollar company that makes next to no profit. "


But their profits are shooting up through their ad systems, and they've got a multi million dedicated user base who'll try out pretty much anything they throw their way. They've built their own market-- surely they can't die quickly after establishing that kind of power.

"Grif, if there's one thing I've learned working with you, it's there there's always a margin for error."
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David R
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Posted: 6th May 2005 04:16 Edited at: 6th May 2005 04:24
Quote: "It's not going down soon--- *definitely* not because Longhorn looks crappy."


The romans believed that the colesseum would never fall. They were wrong

Oh yeah, and generally on the OS thing, there is some new 'secret' OS project going on in the Unix/Linux community which involves Linus Torvalds's 'Git' (pronounced get, luckily) Although 'Git' is not secret, there is apparently a project to create a 'professionally distributed' version of Unix/Linux with this new 'Git' thing. It could be finished by the start of 2007, so MS better look out.

Here is a pic, using Sun's 'Looking glass' 3d interface (very Mac like, I must say)



Edit: Git is a source management program

Quote: " I'm rooting for Gates. Stupid google, stupid commies."

Im not particularly rooting for either side, but I prefer google to MS - Gates seems to be be a bit of a 'sore loser', and MS itself seems to be faceless (no ID).

Quote: "linux, the free operating system that Gates once scoffed at, is fighting Microsoft for share in both the server and desktop markets, forcing the company to do the unthinkable: offer customer discounts"
Exactly right, and I hope Bill doesnt expect to lure round 'ex-linux' users as a result of the Longhorn server platform - which would you rather choose? £0 or £100?

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Ian T
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Posted: 6th May 2005 04:24
Quote: "They were wrong"


Last I checked it's still there

"Grif, if there's one thing I've learned working with you, it's there there's always a margin for error."
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David R
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Posted: 6th May 2005 04:25


If you havent noticed, half of isn't there

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Jimmy
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Posted: 6th May 2005 04:30
I'd say 4/5 of it is still standing.

David R
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Posted: 6th May 2005 04:39
Fair enough, but what I meant is that it isnt entirely intact. Didnt mean to be the agressor or anything

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Raven
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Quote: "Exactly right, and I hope Bill doesnt expect to lure round 'ex-linux' users as a result of the Longhorn server platform - which would you rather choose? £0 or £100?"


Sorry, but Professional companies don't use Free Solutions, or Free versions of Linux.

Red Hat, SuSE and Websphere will all set you back ~£150 for a Professional Edition, usually included in the cost of purchasing a server from these companies.

(the price is still in there)

There are NO options to Freely try these professional solutions either. If you want to see if they are right for your business then you must use the free versions aimed at the public consumption.

They however DO NOT represent what you get with the professional solutions though. They have less security, thier access is limited to a workstation (single system) style, etc.

Microsoft Windows Server 2003, is effectively idiot-proof (meaning most people with even a basic MSC can make it *AS* secure as Linux), it also cost less to create, and less to upkeep (as it optimises server power useage, manages IO calls better as well as managing the network automatically).. Not forgetting a Linux Administrator will cost you around £25/hr, around London this can be as high as £45/hr. Windows Administrators generally can be hired for around £15/hr.

That difference in cost means you can either double or triple your support staff for the same cost or have a much lower running cost.

The Operating System price is one off. Support and Hardware is what costs the main money.

Microsoft Server Systems can reboot and correct any problems that may occur during normal operations. Your downtime can be as little as 99.9%... Linux when it reaches a problem will keep reoccuring until the Administrator physically fixes the problem.

This can lead to massive downtime, and for every minute company's site is down, is a minute of large losses.

If you think Linux is the best choice in every solution, then all your looking at is the price tag. If your considering it because you can optimise it's use for your custom servers, then your looking at it for the right reasons.

billy the kid
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Posted: 6th May 2005 05:04
Why cant you guys keep the MS arguments in one thread? This is the 3rd or 4th thread in just a few days where MS debates have broke out. Seriously pick a thread and go with it!
Megaton Cat
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Posted: 6th May 2005 05:20
MC arguments should be kept simple.

e.g

User 1: Microsoft is sucky.

User2: I second that.

It's so much easier to agree.

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Posted: 6th May 2005 05:23
Quote: "
User2: I second that."


User3: I concur.

UnderLord
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Posted: 7th May 2005 15:47
Wow we went from MS and google to colesseum...where did we go wrong? hehe

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Raven
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Posted: 7th May 2005 16:23
Quote: "Why cant you guys keep the MS arguments in one thread?"


Perhaps because this thread IS directly about Microsoft.
It's a big company, they cover one hellova market... as such there is quite a fair bit of new that conserns them.

I've often wondered, why no one picks on IBM in the same mannor?
If you compare IBM to Microsoft and EA, you actually see it is like a combination of two of the most hated corporations in America.. yet I've yet to see someone who has an irrational problem with IBM.



Kevin Picone
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Posted: 7th May 2005 16:32 Edited at: 7th May 2005 16:33
People did, when IBM were in the OS game, remember OS/2. Ahh all those lovely WinBlows vs os/2.. debates etc

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UnderLord
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Posted: 8th May 2005 18:46
Ahhh yes uw those where the days....the days indeed

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Raven
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Posted: 8th May 2005 19:23
Quote: "People did, when IBM were in the OS game, remember OS/2. Ahh all those lovely WinBlows vs os/2.. debates etc"


They've never left the 'OS game', they're just not competing with Microsoft anymore.

I don't remember anyone calling IBM some evil greedy corporation. I mean look at it, your writing WinBlows.. but that's BS isn't it. OS/2 wasn't competing against Windows, as 3.1 was still something of a novelty far behind the likes of MacOS and Amiga Workbench.

Even OS/2 Warp vs Windows 95 was a joke. This whole 'WinBlows' stuff and M$ comes from the Windows 95 period, when for the first time Microsoft had produced an Operating System that was unstable sometimes to the point of unusability.

The Operating System was ridiculously expensive, unstable, and slow.
Even the look was radically different causing many users not to want to upgrade...

Maybe it was more a case of the immature business world that seems to make fun of things though, but from my dad's friends and all of the guys knew at that time. The operating system being used, simply reflected the task you needed done.

Secure, Networked, Customised for Custom Systems you used Unix.
For IBM, Hewlett-Packard or Compaq you used OS/2.
For everyday work you used MS-DOS with Windows 3.11 (or before that X-Tree)

Windows 1/2 never really made an impact on the market, atleast not from a useable (or financially sound) point of view.

God back in those days the x86 was rarely used for business purposes past Word Processing (Word Perfect) and Spreadsheets (Lotus 1-2-3). You wanted any graphics done, this was almost exclusively the domain of Sparc or Amiga.

Networking was the domain of IBM/HP, with Compaq producing powerhouse machines for intensive math tasks. Though really it was always best to fall-back on the Acorns for math, they seemed built for it.

It was far more about the Machine you were using rather than the Operating System.

Mentor
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Location: United Kingdom
Posted: 10th May 2005 06:35
@Tesio...AFAIK (and I have seen people do this) any Linux distro (Slackware, Redhat, Fedora, Suse, Debian etc) can be configured to be a full blown server with every tool and utility you could possibly want, mainly because servers are 9/10th scripts with a secure core running them (IE Linux), the only difference between home and server distros is that a server will not have games and office/hobby applications installed and will have many extra tools by default instead, you can also make any standard Linux install into a Bewolf supercluster, a renderfarm or a science station, you just need to download and configure the software and scripts you need.
all you buy with a commercial Distro is the online help, the manual and the fancy box, the software is in many cases the same as the server edition (minus games etc), you can get exactly the same functionality by installing applications from the "desktop distro" cd/dvd in most cases (this is picked up from when I had to configure my Linux machine to run on my windows network...theres a LOT of reading out there on the net....you get sidetracked )

Mentor.

PC1:XP, P4 3ghz, 1gig mem, 3x160gig hd`s, Radeon 9800pro, 6 way sound.
PC2: Linux, AMD 2ghz, 512mb ram, Nvidia GeForce4mx, 16 bit SB.
PC3: XP, laptop, intel 2.6ghz celeron, ATI 9000igp, 256mb

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