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Geek Culture / how to make games using C++

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bugsquish
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Posted: 2nd Feb 2003 23:49
Ho do I create an environment on my computer where i can develop games using C++ instead of darkbasic?

What kind of compilers etc do i need? where can i get them and how much? is there any way to do it for free? Any resources for amateur C++ game coders? Anything else I might not have thought of?

Also, is it really recommended for someone of my level? i have written basic/moderate scripts in a few different languages (perl, pascal(delphi), darkbasic, javascript) but at the end of the day i want to be a commercial C++ game programmer. Is it better to learn darkbasic properly first? I have pretty much no idea what to expect from C++

hope someone out there has some tasty advice for me
bugsquish
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Posted: 2nd Feb 2003 23:50
lol ^How do I....
Megaman X
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Posted: 3rd Feb 2003 00:07
Well, u have a bunch of questions there . I will try to give all that I know for u, but I warn u that make games in C is no easy task. I could make myself a bad engine using DirectX, but I don't think I can ever make a game with that ^_^.
First, u will need a compiler. The most used is Microsoft's Visual C++. I use it myself and it's worthy the price if u willing to also make Win Apps. If pay for a compiler is not ur choice, then u might want a free one. Borland C is very good and DevC++ as well.
U can get Dev C++ here:

http://www.bloodshed.net/devcpp.html.

For borland, here:

[href]
http://www.borland.com/products/downloads/download_cbuilder.html[/href]

I prefer DevC, but maybe it's just me ^_^.
The next step, I believe, is to take some C/C++ tutorials. There're plenty of them all over the internet, freely. I would recomend those:

C Programming:
http://www.cprogramming.com/

And C plus plus:
http://www.cplusplus.com/

Well, after some time playing around with C++, u might feel strong enough to understand the confusing, bad designed MS DirectX. U can download the Dev Kit from microsoft's homepage:

[href]www.microsoft.com[/href]

Make a search after DirectX.

Then, u probaly will want some newbie tutorials about DirectX, won't u? Here is a good start:

http://www.andypike.com/

Many books as "Teach your self C/C++/GameProgramming/OpenGL/DirectX" are all good and expensive... Somes confusing and boring, but worthy the final effort.
Most peoples believe u can learn DirectX and C++ with hands over good tutorials and books... I disagree. In my opinion, the best way is to take a class. 6 months studying C/C++ in a class with a teacher helping you out, peoples/friends helping you there just give the extra thing which tutorials and forums won't. I believe that it can take many many years to be that good with C++/DirectX. DB team for exemple, haven't done DB from day to night. I bet Rich is programming for MANY years to do such good thing ^_^.

It all depends on you... Will u want to join a game company in the future, so take C++ seriously... Studying a day in a week for six months at evenings won't kill you. But in another hand, if you wanna just make a game, not dream about joinning a big company and, if you a lone wolf coder, DarkBasic is the best option. It's fast to learn and nice results... Depends a lot what u wanna do ^_^.
Hope it's of any help. I've been coding DirectX for like 2 years now... really hard to make a game with it Think about it ^_^. I do, wanna join a company in the future, so I'm going to take a class at Uni here in Sweden, where they offer Computer Games at the Uni, so... for me, it's very hard to sit in my computer and concentrate myself studying... I need a class and a teacher ^_^.
Good luck!!!

"A true warrior fights with skill, not anger..."

Gif edited by Kangaroo2
Megaman X
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Posted: 3rd Feb 2003 00:11
href, html, html, url... weird tags in this forum indeedly ^_^.

"A true warrior fights with skill, not anger..."

Gif edited by Kangaroo2
bugsquish
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Posted: 3rd Feb 2003 00:43
Wow very informative post megaman thanks a lot for your help! Well you saw through me yes my plan is to become a professional C++ coder with a respectable game studio!

Here in scotland there are a few uni's that do degree courses in games design (the whole range i think - 3D, coding, media, etc.). Until very recently my plan was to go to this course, using my lovingly created darkbasic game as my ticket. However, i read a very interesting post somewhere on these forums (written by Raven Vegeta i believe) about being "top dog" in your area which made a lot of sense. Now I'm thinking maybe a C++ course? Boring as hell I'm sure, but very rewarding once I land the right job

For now, I'm wondering if being a DB expert will make the C++ learning curve any easier, or if i should upgrade to pro, or just ditch DB altogether and start taking C++ seriously right now.

Either way, i got a starting point now from ur post thanks again
QuothTheRaven
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Posted: 3rd Feb 2003 01:01
C++ is really just screwed up basic, with crappy syntax and many many more commands and types. Forgetting a semicolon can melt your hard drive. The debugger does not warn you of an error, but you will find it when your computer stops working.

It is near impossible to learn, the learning curve is dangerous, and your experience with db will help you only mildly to none. Professional courses are really the only way to learn any variant of C. Basically, take dark basic with no commands, and program the commands. You have to program how to display 3d space. How to make a cube. EVERYTHING is done by you, there is no sissy "make object cube" or "move object." It is VERY math oriented, and entirely done by the user. Have fun dying in a world of pain!
Kangaroo2
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Posted: 3rd Feb 2003 01:04
If you want a job as a programmer for a major company Dark Basic Pro won't get you anywhere, you need to know C and C++ inside out. However if you want to work as a designer, graphic artist, level designer, character model artist etc then Dark Basic Pro will be very useful to quickly build professional quality demos to showcase your design or art within a game.

If ya wanna b a non freelance programmer, C++ is essential - If u want to be a level designer then find something for editing BSPs for Quake 3 or Halflife. If u want to be a 3 dimensional character artist, use any one of 3dsmax/lightwave/Maya and also learn Milkshape

But like I said, DBP is great for making a demo program to join all your design work and game ideas together (Plus its a fun hobby!)

bugsquish
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Posted: 3rd Feb 2003 02:06
well quoththeraven thats just the kind of encouragement i need can i assume you were being slightly overdramatic, or is there real danger of permenant damage to my machine?

kangaroo, i was kind of hoping that i could use darkbasic to showcase my understanding of the process in general - and use it as a footstep in whatever direction i choose. perhaps to secure entry into a C++ degree?

here's the deal, i am pretty average/competent at creating everything i need for darkbasic (3D modelling, graphics, sound and code - i have HND in multimedia) and could make an OK game to showcase my skills (already working on it).

but at the end of the day i want to be pro (and make some cash!). these words are etched in my skull: i need to be top dog in one area. code seems to be something i can get engrossed in for hours on end and time flies past so i thought maybe C++ would be the career choice for me

but i often tear my hair out using darkbasic so if C++ is likely to cause premature baldness then maybe i should stick to the artistic side i just cant decide!

i suppose the real question is: where is the big money? coding? modelling? graphics?
hexGEAR
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Posted: 3rd Feb 2003 02:10
if i download the DirectX 9.0 SDK for C/C++ and use that it should still work on computers that use directx 8 and below right? or do you think it would be better to get the 8.0 SDK kit?

your birth was a blessing, sent to live and die on earth as a lesson, we each have a star all you have to do is find it, once you do, everyone who sees it will be blinded - DMX
Megaman X
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Posted: 3rd Feb 2003 03:03
U welcome my friend bugsquish . About the big money question, it's very relative, just u r speciallist @ something I suposse. Like, if u create a famous game caracter as Lara Croft, u'll own... however, if u make a engine which competes with Unreal 2, you gonna rock the market too The big cash cames from where u good at and can make better then others... specialist .

hexgear:

Hmmmm. More or less. A machine with DirectX 9.0 can, in theory, run any game/app made with any anterior version of DirectX. However, a game/app made with DirectX 9.0 will run only under machines with DirectX9.0 or higher. Obviously, as long as you use exclusive functions DX 9 related. Older machines ( let's say, a computer with win95 ) won't run you application. (win 95 goes up to DirectX 8.0 ) I've not tried DirectX 9.0 SDK myself yet, but if you r a newbie, the easist DirectX to start would be DirectX 7.0. DX7 is easiest to learn simply because you can start, for exemple, using 2D to learn ( DirectDraw7 function ). When u get better, then u can mess around with 3D ( Direct3D7 function ). It's always easier to start learning with 2D I believe. However, it is possible to generate 2D using Direct3D7, not easy though, but possible. To use 2D with DirectX8, the only way is using Direct3D ( they have joinned DirectDraw and Direct3D in one function, same with DirectMedia and other stuff ).

Hmmmmm, hope I'm not making this too confuse

"A true warrior fights with skill, not anger..."

Gif edited by Kangaroo2
Megaman X
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Posted: 3rd Feb 2003 03:06
This is a very entresting site. I've look at it years ago and it's still online ^_^.

http://www.makegames.com/

"A true warrior fights with skill, not anger..."

Gif edited by Kangaroo2
hexGEAR
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Posted: 3rd Feb 2003 03:20
thanks, that answered a lot of questions! what i don't understand is if you want to make a game using C++ on windows, is it a must to get the developers kit (or SDK)? or you can do withought? and what's up with OPENGL what the hell is that and do you need it also?

your birth was a blessing, sent to live and die on earth as a lesson, we each have a star all you have to do is find it, once you do, everyone who sees it will be blinded - DMX
bugsquish
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Posted: 3rd Feb 2003 03:51
well i been writing code since i was in nappies, but i never concentrated on one specific code (i never found one satisfying enough). i do find myself these days playing a game, and imagining how i would code it in DB rather than how i would create models etc. i think what i will do is finish my DB game and then use it to try and get funding for a games oriented C++ course. coincidentally and extremely handily my mum has experience with C++ so she can help
Thanks all for advice
bugsquish
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Posted: 3rd Feb 2003 03:55
And was am slightly confused over the DirectX/OpenGL drivers but i been reading up. OpenGL commands improve the performance of an opengl device. The DX dev kit will let you use all the latest DX commands so you can communicate with MOST modern hardware without knowing what that hardware actually is.
Thank you master Megaman, ,you have taught me well
hexGEAR
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Posted: 3rd Feb 2003 04:58
wait, so let me get this straight, DX dev kit ( for c++ programming language) is just a set of c++ sample code, header and source files that allow you to interface with your computer hardware?

your birth was a blessing, sent to live and die on earth as a lesson, we each have a star all you have to do is find it, once you do, everyone who sees it will be blinded - DMX
bugsquish
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Posted: 3rd Feb 2003 05:34
directx is an API (application program interface) heres the quote from webopedia

Quote: "DirectX enables programmers to write programs that access hardware features of a computer without knowing exactly what hardware will be installed on the machine where the program eventually runs. It achieves this by creating an intermediate layer that translates generic hardware commands into specific commands for particular pieces of hardware."


so im assuming the dev kit will help you to use the api with your code of choice (obviously c++ for most)

highly useful and recommended: [url]http://webopedia.internet.com[/url
bugsquish
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Posted: 3rd Feb 2003 05:35
koolaid
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Posted: 3rd Feb 2003 06:56
hey i am new to dark basic and the whole programming world just recently took a step in this direction to see what it brings me hopefully the best reading your questions made me think for a while at the same things but you should try different things see what works for you.

indi
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Posted: 3rd Feb 2003 07:05
the "nehe" site is great for games and C/C++ information

Megaman X
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Posted: 3rd Feb 2003 09:43
bugsquish understood pretty well and now is even giving tips to other users ^_^. U've become a greater Jedi than I am my young padawan Lol, I always wanted to say that ^_^, sorry I'm glad I could help .

Well, I don't know much about OpenGL myself and how much it's used nowdays by big companies. I know though, that DirectX is currently very superior then OpenGL for GameDev.
However, it's a cross plataform software, which, diferently from DirectX ( which is entirly Microsoft's thing ) is easy to port to other OS, as Unix systems or MacOS. U can use it also within Microsoft Visual C++4.0 which is today free ^_^.

About OpenGL u can learn about it here:

http://www.opengl.org/

To get the Microsoft Free Visual C++ 4.0 u can get it here:

http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?FamilyID=1dacdb3d-50d1-41b2-a107-fa75ae960856&DisplayLang=en

U can also use DevC++ together with both DirectX and OpenGL libraries, I've tried once but never get DirectX to work though ^_^.

Indeed, u can download some pdf books about OpenGL, but, if u r like me, you'll want to have a book for many reasons; - You can read when u are in a bus, train, car and everyone will stare at u thinking u r some kind of Bill Gates ( girls will ignore u though ), - Looks so great in the bookcase and make ur friends jealous... lol, seriously, I like to read from books, I think to look all the time at the screen makes me tired, besides, you can not "cheat" reading a book. If u use some online tutorial you will use the famous "Copy and Paste" to ur editor and do not type the code . Books makes u type every single brace ( and in C they are so many ^_^).

Here's a good book for a relativly good price:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0761533303/qid=1044257782/sr=2-2/ref=sr_2_3_2/026-7752839-3838855

Off Topic: I have had problems with Amazon.com orderings... they've got my money and I never got my books. I have not had any problems with amazon.co.uk though. I'm still fighting with my country and USA's post office to get my books( fight goes over 6 months now )or my money back... so beware ^_^.

"A true warrior fights with skill, not anger..."

Gif edited by Kangaroo2
Megaman X
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Posted: 3rd Feb 2003 10:25
hexgear:

Yes, u can do a game in C++ without the need of any SDK. It was made like that b4 MS invented DirectX. There're much more obstacles if u choose to do so. U will need to code all the libraries yourself, which is painful. (like, readers files like d3d.h which makes like so much easier ).
Also, you will need a really good hardware understanding. Who here does not remember old DOS games, where u needed to set up, for exemple, ur sound card :S. Yeah, go into "Run", type "command", type "set" into DOS prompt and see which IRQ and other stuff ur sound card was Then, use those values during the instalation of a game, including wav and mid files ports. Most of the times, you played without any sort of sound or worse... PC Beeps...ghehehe.
DirectX controls all those painfuls understanding of hardware config for you, including network, graphics and sounds. A easy thing to do with DirectX is to create a mp3 player ^_^. DirectSound is easy to understand ^_^, as is DirectShow.

Some peoples ( ain't many doing it ) uses Visual Basic and DirectX to also create games. That's good and bad for some reasons.

Cons:

It's said that it's MUCH slower then code in primitive C/C++ DirectX. However, running the demos which comes bundled with MS DirectX SDK ( like the Dolphin demo, for exemple ) were not slower then the demos made with Visual C++ ( if u downloaded the SDK, u may test it and see the fps results ).
It's easier to hack ur game, Visual Basic is pretty easy to decompile with the right toolz .
Collisions detection is not possible... U will need to code it externaly using Visual C++, for exemple.

Pros:
It's much more simplified then Visual C++. Visual Basic's editor works greatly, antecipating every probable syntax for you ( if anyone tried, they know what I mean by that ).
U have a better flux control of what you are doing with your code... the syntax is pretty simple, compared to C++ pure.

As always, I will recomend one site about Visual Basic/DirectX programming. I love that site ^_^:

http://www.vbexplorer.com/directx4vb/index.asp

Those guys have been playing around with Visual Basic and DirectX since DirectX 7.0 ( which was the first DirectX with support to Visual Basic, if I'm not mistaken ). I think they already started somes DirectX9 tutorials there...

This is also a good site about tutorials and general links, they are recommending DarkBASIC in there too ^_^:

[url]www.gamecoding.co.uk[/url]

Well, I think those are about all sites I know ^_^

"A true warrior fights with skill, not anger..."

Gif edited by Kangaroo2
bugsquish
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Posted: 3rd Feb 2003 11:28
from what you say megaman it seems learning about directx is almost as important as the C++ if ur using it for games.

i'm not planning to make my own games straight away but it would be handy to know the basics of it all before i take a course. at least now im forming a plan of action.

with regard to my earlier question about cash, I saw a link in another thread that shows the highest earners in a project are the coders/modellers/animators. so im on the right track

one thing is still worrying me though

Quote: "C++ is really just screwed up basic, with crappy syntax and many many more commands and types. Forgetting a semicolon can melt your hard drive. The debugger does not warn you of an error, but you will find it when your computer stops working."


seriously, how likely is it to damage my computer? are there any kind of debugging tools to find errors before you compile the code? i just got a new comp and i'd be screwed if it joined my computer graveyard
Megaman X
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Posted: 3rd Feb 2003 12:12
I'm soon going to school, so this is my last reply till tonight ^_^. I love this forum . This is a great topic actually bugsquish

Well, I think to understand DirectX for applications is as important as C++. I have a friend who works at Ericsson as a programmer here in Sweden for years. He cames from Russia. He had no idea what DirectX ( just heard about it a bit ) was b4 we've spoken and he also wins a good cash ^_^. When u learn DirectX, so then u start to be specialist at some area, like Game Programming. Saying u r a programmer is far too empty to say . Like I could be a Unix programmer, a Database programmer and so on. So, it's like... you will be a DirectX specialist, as my friend is a DataBase specialist... however u both know C++, but use with diferent tasks It's so hard to explain myself sometimes... I don't understand how I could get married like this but... whatever.. lol.

About the Quote:

"C++ is really just screwed up basic, with crappy syntax and many many more commands and types. Forgetting a semicolon can melt your hard drive. The debugger does not warn you of an error, but you will find it when your computer stops working."

Many peoples used with basic has problems to learn C/C++... like, in basic, you simple type this for a hello world:

print "Hello World"

in C is a bit longer:

#include <stdio.h>

int main()
{
printf("Hello World!");
return 0;
}

And in C++ a bit diferent:

#include <iostream.h>

int main()
{
cout <<"Hello World!";
return 0;
}

The use of brackets in C/C++ ( {} ) has actually a meaning. They derives from the old Pascal which, instead of brackets, used the syntaxes "BEGIN" and "END". It's just a modification, nothing more. All statments ends with a semi-colon (, with exception of the "if" statments. It's just a matter to get used to it.

Personally I think that, if u know a language very well, u can use somes of knowledges to learn a new language. A variable is a variable... how to declare, where to put is differs from language to language, but a varibale is a variable... lol... Like, u speak english very well, when u wanna learn japanese you will think it's so weird all phrases ends with a verb or a preposition... A verb is a verb, a preposition is a preposition... how to use them is language related. DarkBASIC is a great start if u look at it like that .

About the make ur computer stop working, it's half true. If u install DirectX SDK with in "Debug" mode, it will install some "evil" dll's which will ruin many exe in ur computer, as Media Player for exemple . however, if u do not install in debug mode, nothing will change into ur system. Thanks to Mr.Bitmap from this forum who helped me out with that once ^_^.
So, no problems without the evil debug dlls ^_^.

Catch ya later guys

"A true warrior fights with skill, not anger..."

Gif edited by Kangaroo2
bugsquish
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Posted: 3rd Feb 2003 12:35
i hear u there, "directx specialist with c++" has a very tasty ring to it careerwise.

thanks for the example. how about showing me something a little more complex (a cube?). i was writing a lot of Perl for CGI so that actually looks kinda similar. i also did a bit of pascal (delphi) back in college. i usually dont have much trouble learning syntax and have pretty sound understanding of programming fundamentals (loops, variables, operators etc), but i am pretty bad for syntax errors through sloppiness

ok i will avoid the EVIL dlls but what about some little utility that checks for errors without actually running the code? or is this included in any of the compilers? it would make me feel a bit safer!

one more thing, is it necessary to learn C also? i read somewhere on the forum that most C++ programmers still need C from time to time. id hate to have to learn 2 versions of an already complex language!
n3t3r453r
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Posted: 3rd Feb 2003 15:43
www.gamedev.net
IanM
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Posted: 3rd Feb 2003 18:54
The compiler will automatically catch all of your coding errors and syntax errors (with far more detail than you would probably like to see ).

C++ will not melt your hard-drive or memory.
You don't have to learn two languages - almost everything in C is part of C++.
It will take a long time for you to learn to use C++ effectively.
It will take a long time to use DX effectively.

Having said that, I'm glad I learnt it - just get yourself a couple of good reference books ... or borrow your mums.

If you want basic DX tutorials (that also include a rotating cube ), then try the one at this site : http://www.andypike.com/Home.asp
Shadow Robert
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Posted: 3rd Feb 2003 20:59
Ian ... not all compilers do, e.g. CodeWarrior doesn't - means they you can run potentially dangerous code.

That is another reason on an ever growing list i use Visual C++ over any other IDE for my C|C++ needs, plus the DirectX kit automatically set up the link libraries ... which other programs don't do. (This is why Dx generally doesn't work for newbies in other IDEs)

The SDK comes with everything you need to develop within the DirectX APi's and DirectX 9 SDK you can develop from the DirectX 7.1 - DirectX 8.1 - DirectX 9.0 libraries.

OpenGL is a seperate Graphics APi, which can be used instead of Direct3D which is DirectX's Graphics APi.

OpenGL is a quicker and simpler language, with more raw power. However DirectX does have a larger base to work from and covers a greater number of cards.
Plus DirectX is an All-in-one package, Sound, Network, Music, Video, Input, etc...

There are tutorials which come with DirectX SDK which are relatively simple to get going quickly - and the Wizzards provided also give you alot of quick development boasts so you can learn each section quicker.

Anata aru kowagaru no watashi!
IanM
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Posted: 3rd Feb 2003 21:26
I meant syntax errors and type-based errors, not logical errors. And the worst that can result is a reinstall. If you are running Win2K or XP that usually limits the damage too.

I use Visual Studio for windows coding too - Installing the latest DX SDK automatically installs into the studio environment Shame that the compiler isn't totally standards compliant, but that's not a problem for most people - I just like mucking around with templates .

The problem is that its price is out of reach for the hobbyist, unless you get the learning edition (which is pants).

I don't really have a need to touch any other windows C++ compilers.

Although I agree that OpenGL looks easier (I know it as well as I know DX ), it just does graphics. The strongest point of DX (IMHO) is that it is an almost complete package.
Shadow Robert
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Posted: 4th Feb 2003 00:19
you can get Visual C++ 6.0 Standard (on Educational Licence, for Teachers, Students & Parents) for £90

Includes everything the Standard Version for everyone else does... 2 MSDN CDs, 1 Visual C++ Std CD big thick manual you'll never read blah blah.

But then again you can simply download Borland Builder C++ 5.5 which is licence free, and free of charge.
However you can't compile MFC libraries of anything Microsoft Specific like that. And you'll have to use one of the freebie IDEs ... Setup every environment for specifically what you want to create, go through completely coding things, and not be told when you have logic/syntax/general protection errors

i liked Visual C++ 6 & 7 cause if it will end up buggering up your system it warns you about it, and if it can catastrophically do such then it'll just not compile.
Unless you turn it off, but as you have to know what your doing to turn it off, i think thats cool

Anata aru kowagaru no watashi!
bugsquish
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Posted: 4th Feb 2003 13:17
ok im getting the idea that a freeware compiler isnt the most user friendly option for a beginner! also for safety of my shiny new comp looks like microsoft require my attention yet again do the commercial game studios use Visual C++?

if i get to grips with directx, is opengl surplus to requirements? can directx alone do anything special with opengl cards?
bugsquish
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Posted: 4th Feb 2003 13:22
Hmm what is Visual C++ .NET? Is this the latest version or something else altogether? Is Visual C++ 6/7 now obsolete?
Incandescant
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Posted: 4th Feb 2003 13:38
Visual C++ .Net is Visual C++ 7
Its the new MS naming scheme, everything (except windows) is called product name .Net

System: Athlon TBird 800Mhz, 320MB RAM, GeForce 2MX440, DX8.1
bugsquish
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Posted: 4th Feb 2003 13:43
aaah now i get it. damn rebranding! why cant starburst just be opal fruits?
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Posted: 4th Feb 2003 13:47
Err because .NET is as far from just a "re-branding" exercise as you can get.

MS have changed the entire platform and architecture of their entire OS range, application range and server range. .NET is not just a new name, it's a new environment. Visual Studio .NET includes both C# and C++ (and I use them both daily).

Cheers,

Rich

"Gentlemen, we are about to short-circuit the Universe!"
DB Team / Atari ST / DarkForge / Retro Gaming
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Posted: 4th Feb 2003 13:49
Visual Studio is like everything, FoxPro VB and all the ones I don't know.
i didn't say it was justa re-brand, all I was saying was that VC++.NET is VC++7


er...i'll shut up now

System: Athlon TBird 800Mhz, 320MB RAM, GeForce 2MX440, DX8.1
Shadow Robert
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Posted: 4th Feb 2003 20:49
yes but Visual C++ is still Visual C++ ... however alot of the underlying core has been changed to use the .Net extentions - and C# uses it almost entirely

Plus Windows "Longhorn" changed its name from Windows XP 2005 to Windows .Net about 6months ago
Which is how long these new versions of the product are set to last ... with Office .Net hitting late this year

you should checkup on what .Net offers because the extensions are certianly not for everyone however is the base system which WindowsXP is founded on which is being enhanced upon into Windows.Net

But yeah Visual C++ .Net is just Visual C++ 7.0
just as Visual C++ '98 was 6.0

you'll probably find over time the shops will no doubt change to the version number just as they have for the other versions
6.0 is probably the cheapest bet... however 7.0 will be the leading technology for the next 3-5years (albeit with Software Pack updates)

If you can afford it i'd suggest 7.0

Anata aru kowagaru no watashi!
Richard Davey
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Posted: 4th Feb 2003 20:57
.NET is Microsofts strategy and underlying architecture for the future, you don't invest 5 years into developing a platform/strategy like this just for the short-term. The question really is if you need it and for say DLL creation for DBPro they might as well invest in the far cheaper 6.0 - for application development I use C# religiously, it's seriously far removed from C++ but that's fine with me. I must have coded over half a million lines worth of C# last year and have to admire the language - you can't get more OO than C#!

Cheers,

Rich

"Gentlemen, we are about to short-circuit the Universe!"
DB Team / Atari ST / DarkForge / Retro Gaming
Shadow Robert
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Posted: 4th Feb 2003 21:14
I'm not saying they won't update Visual Studio .Net ...
simply saying it's going to be the standard until Windows.Net arrives - then no doubt we'll have VS .Net '05 or something i mean its not going away and really what is to be used for the whole future developments within the Microsoft Platforms.

So far VS 6.0 has lasted around 5years, and with a new version of windows on the way could be even longer before they update again.

not used C# a great deal since i got .Net - however does seems to be an interesting language

Anata aru kowagaru no watashi!
Richard Davey
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Posted: 4th Feb 2003 21:21
I know - the new version of VS.NET is due shortly anyway (beta CDs shipped Dec 02) which is more a service release than anything, but much needed. I'm quite sure it'll remain the standard well into the life of Windows .NET

C# is fascinating - every single thing is an object, like everything. Every string, every integer - all objects. A string coming from the System object. Objects need to be casted or converted before use. Takes some serious getting used to but the abilities are astonishing. We spent 10 months developing a proper tiered system with presentation layer, business logic layer and data access layer properly seperated out and it was flawless. Thank God for polymorphism and inheritence and all the other wonderful attributes of OO coding.

Cheers,

Rich

"Gentlemen, we are about to short-circuit the Universe!"
DB Team / Atari ST / DarkForge / Retro Gaming
Shadow Robert
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Posted: 4th Feb 2003 21:27
sounds it... perhaps when i get back home i should take the time to learn it better

Anata aru kowagaru no watashi!
bugsquish
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Posted: 5th Feb 2003 15:01
ok i was keeping up so far but u just started mentioning C#. What's this? Is it good for games?
Richard Davey
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Posted: 5th Feb 2003 15:05
At the moment probably not, none of the example DX code is written in it, none of the libraries out there to make coding life easier (see also cheating ) are written in it and you need the .NET framework on your machine to use apps written in it. Basically - no, not yet. Is it a superb language and the next natural step on from C++? Hell yeah.

Cheers,

Rich

"Gentlemen, we are about to short-circuit the Universe!"
DB Team / Atari ST / DarkForge / Retro Gaming
bugsquish
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Posted: 5th Feb 2003 20:23
ok ill leave C# for now but from what you say its definetely one to look out for in the future.
thanks everyone for ur comments i now consider myself enlightened
Shadow Robert
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Posted: 5th Feb 2003 21:57
you missed out on DirectX 9 rich?

DirectX covers Visual Basic, C++ and C# (250Mb SDK)
however as mentioned there are no Engines written to utilise it right now, so if you wanted to make a game in it you'll be in new terrain

good part of that is for certain people i know is that you'll be one of the first to release engines good or bad it'll be what everyone else uses making a good name for yourself (^_^)
lol you know Rich has me all excited to get home and use C# again

Tsu'va Oni Ni Jyuuko Fiori Sei Tau!
One block follows the suit ... the whole suit of blocks is the path ... what have you found?

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