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Geek Culture / Multi-Core Processors. . . but what exactly does it mean?

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Raven
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Posted: 13th May 2005 22:44
In the past few years, the face of Processors has changed dramatically from the old x86 32bit design with In-Line Thread Processing...

To Intel's Hyper-Threading (Thread Syncronous Processing), and AMD's 64-bit Processing. While each of these technologies has enhanced processing speed over the older designs, they have been in no way 'Revolutionising' the speed at which we process.

As far as the overall result has been conserned, these processors have mearly given us the edge in terms of processing capabilities.
Enhacing the speed of our games and software by around 30-50% in the best case senarios.

Now with Multi-Core technology becomming a new Buzz feature, like MMX was back in 1996. Is this new feature going to help radically change the speed of our computers?

Or is it simply going to be like MMX, good for the handful of applications that use it on release.. but for the most part going unused until the next buzz feature appears?

Both Processor manufaturers on the Windows Market (x86) are just about to launch thier Dual-Core Solutions to the world. Intel has been able to marginally beat AMD to the market, which means they're hardware has already been being put through some basic tests across the internet reviewer sites.

Preliminary results, do show that it does indeed almost double the processing capabilities compared to the current equivilent Intel Pentium 4 Processors.

This is good news for Intel as thier 3.7GHz Edition was capable of out-performing AMD's Athlon64 FX-55 by just over 15second in Encoding time for Windows Media Encoder, in a number of instances.

So it does show that compared to AMD's current top-end processors, their choice to not produce a 64bit Edition of thier Pentium 4 range has paid off. In the short run.

Next month AMD release thier Athlon64 X2, which is thier variation of the technology. From the ratings given to their range, it looks likely that they are going to perform far beyond what Intel is capable of offering with thier top-end chip being a 4800+.

I do look forward to seeing how this all plays out over the next few months, and also be looking forward to the budget ranges of these processors around Christmas. Though it would be good to get other peoples opinions on the direction technology is taking.

It is interesting to see that Games Consoles for once are actually at the fore-front of dictacting the technology direction.
Jimmy
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Posted: 14th May 2005 07:14
Hey, I now have enough hot air to complete my trans-atlantic balloon flight!

TKF15H
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Posted: 14th May 2005 13:45
Jimmy, think you can give me a lift to the convention? I don't think I can swim that far.

Ian T
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Posted: 14th May 2005 13:59
Forget cold fusion, the world finally knows a source of infinite heating

"Grif, if there's one thing I've learned working with you, it's there there's always a margin for error."
"It's pronounced margarine, dumbass!"
Raven
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Posted: 14th May 2005 18:45
If you have nothing to add to the actual topic.. **** off and bother someone else.
BatVink
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Posted: 14th May 2005 19:48
Useful info for someone like me, who doesn't want the nitty gritty of the technology, but wants to know what the imapct is for the end-user.

Tesio, Jimmy's comment wasn't a harsh one, when you've been around here a while you'll realise he's one junction short of a major road network, but not in a bad way. Being from the North of England, I understand his sarcasm, he's actually quite funny for an American

BatVink
Raven
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Posted: 14th May 2005 19:51
True, but still.. from Jimmy I expect it (and usually just ignore his comments lol). From others it's annoying.
Ian T
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Posted: 15th May 2005 00:14 Edited at: 15th May 2005 00:15
I was just jumping on the bandwagon

Of course, it doesn't look like anyone really has an interest in the main topic, but I can't blame you for trying...

"Grif, if there's one thing I've learned working with you, it's there there's always a margin for error."
"It's pronounced margarine, dumbass!"
Jeku
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Posted: 15th May 2005 04:20 Edited at: 15th May 2005 04:21
I found it interesting

Anyone who plans to work in the games industry as a programmer should know this stuff.


--[R.O.B.O.I. and FireTris Coming Soon]--
Raven
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Posted: 15th May 2005 05:22
Jeku, you read up on how this affects games on Intel.com?
I found it very interesting. Going to certainly adversely affect some projects.
Jeku
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Posted: 15th May 2005 07:43
No, haven't read that yet. I'll check it out.


--[R.O.B.O.I. and FireTris Coming Soon]--
Baggers
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Posted: 15th May 2005 10:33
I found it interesting, and yeah jimmy can get away with anything as we are so used to him..he's endearing!

Kevin Picone
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Posted: 15th May 2005 13:55
..Cause and Effect..

Company announces a new whizz bang technology, the marketing instills this new idea, new approach into populous, which is then spread forward via viral marketing (like were doing right now). It's a lot like the wisher games we've probably all played in primary school. With technology they almost rely upon the hype factor.

Multicore certainly appears a direction forward, at present the clock speed rates are hindered by many factors. One factor is power leakage, where scaling the clock up you get more leakage, resulting in interference.. Which is a circuit killer. The more complex these single core cpu's become in order to push forward, the more transistors they use, thus the more power is required, and the more leakage.

So Multicore seems a simpler way forward for manufactories to increase (theoretical) performance without butting heads on the present set of problems (as much, but their still there though). Apparently this is because the cores are simpler (they've trimmed the fat). The idea being that they can use less transistors, less power, less leakage in each core.. so higher clocks are obtainable.

One thing that is worrying though is that the marketing is trying to tell us that having a multi core cpu is going to double your horse power instantly. This is simply a Myth. (i.e Two heads are better than one!, anybody remember the Sega Saturn ?. ) Why, because programs are written in a linear form. Process A, is done before Process B, then Process C etc. So programs have to be explicitly optimized for Multicore cpu's, to obtain a big advantage from it. Some programs will, some won't.

Currently cpu's are exploiting various parallelisms to push forward (they have too), these occur at an op code level. Allowing for multiple math/logic operations to be preformed in unison. So programmers and compilers can produce more effective code with minimal effort. But now, you have to think move about the design of your program and not just the micro level optimizations.

Moving from a single to multi core there are lots of issues, memory access and cpu stalls are just two. As it's not clear how cooperatives the core(s) can be. I.e. is it possible for the two cores to access the same address space in data/instruction caches, in memory ?, how are cache hits protected (which occurs when memory is spooled into or dumped out of the L1 or L2 caches) as having the two cores working on two different areas in memory would be hugely detrimental!.

But the biggest hurdle is going to be being able to design programs that minimize cpu stalling. Programmers have enough problems currently designing app's that do this when feeding data to a GPU for example, let alone threading a entire secondary part of the program. A stall is when a cpu is left sitting there waiting for second device to finish. A common cause is buffer locking. This is dead time.

Parallel is certainly a way forward, the theoretical impact upon OS performance alone, probably makes it worth getting pretty excited about, but we have to keep our feet on the ground.

Kevin Picone
[url]www.underwaredesign.com[/url]
Play Nice! Play Basic (Release V1.066 Out Now)
billy the kid
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Posted: 15th May 2005 14:22 Edited at: 15th May 2005 14:24
Quote: "But the biggest hurdle is going to be being able to design programs that minimize cpu stalling. Programmers have enough problems currently designing app's that do this when feeding data to a GPU for example, let alone threading a entire secondary part of the program. A stall is when a cpu is left sitting there waiting for second device to finish. A common cause is buffer locking. This is dead time."


Actually it is possible to test for a stall, and there are various ways to deal with a stall. But these algorithms currently arent implemented in todays OSs, or the major ones I should say. So really this isnt a hurdle anymore (sorta). But its still a problem because they arent implemented in current OSs. So short-term you will have to worry about stalling like you do now. But hopefully OSs will start implementing these algorithms. These algorithms are on the cutting edge of OS research among plenty of other things.

EDIT:
I personally am not so excited about multiple core processors because the processors arent used to their max ability. Some day it will be but not currently.
Raven
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Posted: 15th May 2005 19:50
Good point Kevin.
Right now developers are just about getting used to using x64, for the market to be transforming again so quickly. Certainly will make things very confusing for a while.

This said, to be honest from a developer point of view.. I don't think the actual under-belly of these processors will affect development much.
As Microsoft work to provide the tools and support for additional processor features via .NET, there is little to worry about from the Application/Game development level as the software and platform kits being used provide all the support needed without having to worry.

For example switching to PPC -> TX79 -> x86, is a breeze with Codewarrior and Visual Studio using the SDKs for each platform. Generally the only recoding you have to do is simply to change between DirectX and OpenGL. Even then for OpenGL it's only a limited number of extensions not available.

So more emphasis is placed on the additional hardware rather than the core of the system. The changes really more affect the low-level developers. Those working on Linux for example will probably be affected the more.
Jess T
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Posted: 15th May 2005 21:40
Some good info there...

BatVink, Tesio is Raven, just so you know ( he's an old user, so I'd say he know's Jimmeh )

Now, I'm a Software guy, myself, and not a hardware guy, so what I hear comes from sources like this, or from big news headlines I may see in general browsing, so my next question may be totally idiotic

With the dual core, instead of having to go all out with recoding for both processors, would it not be wiser ( and probably better ) if the OS was to use one core, and everything else non-OS to use the other?
That way, we as programmers don't have to worry, those that aren't get a bigger boost from their OS as it's got it's own Core to run from, and everything else just slips through the other without any interference from the OS

Just a thought

Jess.


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BatVink
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Posted: 15th May 2005 22:20
Quote: "BatVink, Tesio is Raven, just so you know "

Now I feel abused I've spotted Raven's alter-egos until now, can't believe I missed this one.

That explains the long first post, and everyone else's responses.

When you going to stick with with one identity Tesio, er..Raven?

BatVink
David T
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Posted: 15th May 2005 22:28
What a difference a name seems to make...

Facts are meaningless.
You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true.
Raven
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Posted: 15th May 2005 23:42
alter-ego?
I only have 2 accounts, and this second one is just because Rich won't unlock the other one.

For some reason I can't use Raven, and it's not because my old account had it.. as I made sure to change it before I had it locked.

If you want me to stick to a name find the person who is currently using Raven and tell them to change thier sodding name.. until then I'm going to keep bouncing between handles until I find a new one I like.
Jeku
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Posted: 16th May 2005 05:41
Or you can use 'Raven' with a space in it. I believe I had to do that one time (Jeku with a space) when I forgot this account's password back in the day, and it worked.

But yes, the next piece of technology I'm excited about is Nintendo's secret Revolution console. I'd like to see Nintendo's specs, but I guess we'll have to wait for E3, and we're not certain whether Nintendo will do the unveiling even then.


--[R.O.B.O.I. and FireTris Coming Soon]--
GothOtaku
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Posted: 26th May 2005 10:13
I find this interesting that no one mentioned the G5 (used in modern Apple computers) processor which had dual core processing before Intel and AMD even considered it...
indi
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Posted: 26th May 2005 11:59
dual core or dual CPU, dont get them mixed up, btw iirc older 486 and some 586 models had some dual cpu setups. most SGI machines are setup this way as well

If no-one gives your an answer to a question you have asked, consider:- Is your question clear.- Did you ask nicely.- Are you showing any effort to solve the problem yourself
GothOtaku
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Posted: 26th May 2005 13:58
Ahh yep, read that wrong. Yeah, they're dual processor not dual core. Nevermind....

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