Sorry your browser is not supported!

You are using an outdated browser that does not support modern web technologies, in order to use this site please update to a new browser.

Browsers supported include Chrome, FireFox, Safari, Opera, Internet Explorer 10+ or Microsoft Edge.

Geek Culture / Make ogg dll - Get free games !!!

Author
Message
Digital Awakening
AGK Developer
22
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 27th Aug 2002
Location: Sweden
Posted: 3rd Feb 2003 23:04
http://www.realgametools.net/forums/index.php?board=14;action=display;threadid=12605
[b]Digital Awakening
Game in developement: 3D RPG - The Magic Land
Visit DigAw.com for more info and shots
Megaman X
22
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 21st Oct 2002
Location: Sweden
Posted: 3rd Feb 2003 23:24
I didn't get it . Does it mean that mp3 is copyrighted and we cannot use it in our games? Please DG... tell me it's not that

"A true warrior fights with skill, not anger..."

Gif edited by Kangaroo2
Digital Awakening
AGK Developer
22
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 27th Aug 2002
Location: Sweden
Posted: 3rd Feb 2003 23:40
There's a license fee for using mp3s in games if you sell more then 5000 copies of the game. The fee is $2500. That's why I want this dll made cause ogg has no licenses. I think there are even mp3 to ogg decoders.

[b]Digital Awakening
Game in developement: 3D RPG - The Magic Land
Visit DigAw.com for more info and shots
Megaman X
22
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 21st Oct 2002
Location: Sweden
Posted: 4th Feb 2003 00:07
I am with you in this one... I will help this dll to get out too. I really feel as being stolen all the time when I sit at my computer and think about some game... soft prices that high, games price that high, everything is copyrighted and so on . I'm with you DG, great point u got up there
Just curious... who actully ownz mp3 file copyright? Is this also applied to wav/mid files?

Thanks for any tips ^_^

"A true warrior fights with skill, not anger..."

Gif edited by Kangaroo2
Shadow Robert
22
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 22nd Sep 2002
Location: Hertfordshire, England
Posted: 4th Feb 2003 00:31
FMTau Labs owns MP3, WMA, MOV, Real, MPEG-4 DivX & Bink Movie Formats...
which is actually a saving if anyone ever uses us for publishing - i mean if you look at it, if you go out on your own then you have to charge an Nth amount just to make sure you turn a profit. Then you get hit with finding out that you have to pay for certain medai formats when you get so sucessful.

There are some image media formats also bound by similar agreements, suchas Jpg

Whereas we have the licences for all the major formats with infinate useage because that covers us on more than one titles - means that the more games that use these formats the less we have to pay ... however for my personal projects i'm still using Midi for music, i dunno i just prefer it more - especially knowing that you can adapt the string of the music within the program seemlessly. Even alter the same music with reverbs and such to make it more spooky or something or up the tempo as if times running out.

When you have someone who can actually create midi's quite well you see what the format is capable of ... and if you still don't believe what its capable of then just play mode N64 games. But then again it doesn't have the same mass appeal.
You should remember that MP3 is just a compression encoding upon the WAV format which is free, you could quite easily make a compressor for WAV files which decompress's for use, shouldn't be too hard i mean many compression formats are out there.

Anata aru kowagaru no watashi!
Kangaroo2
22
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 26th Sep 2002
Location: United Kingdom
Posted: 4th Feb 2003 19:29
Ok so this has got me slightly worried - If I use a file which I made myself, in MP3 format I have to pay a royalty fee to use it in my games if I sell over 5000 copies?

What other file types have limited usage? Here are the ones I use:
BMP, JPG, GIF, MPG, AVI, MP3, MID, ZIP, RAR, EXE, BAT, COM

Please if I need to contact any people and pay royalties for any of these formats can some1 give me some websites or ways to contact them?

I don't mind paying royalties, I just don't wanna do anything illegal without realising

Shadow Robert
22
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 22nd Sep 2002
Location: Hertfordshire, England
Posted: 4th Feb 2003 21:09
You won't be doing anything illegal as such, they'll just send you a bill for the Royalties and you'll be like WTF!?

Winzip, Rar archive formats are under licence but i'm not sure what as of yet ... however i use the Free GZip, great Compression format - can get almost as much as Rar which is cool

Jpg recently has one on thier Jpg 2000 format, (or BIGJGP) i never got far enough into the site to checkout exactly what the rules for it are...

Bitmap is free
Gif is free
Tga is free
DDS is free

Mpg ... now this totally depends on the encoder and decoder used. For example its free to use the DivX decoder for use - however you're charged for using the encoder.
So really checking into each format you're using is the only way to know.

Avi ... same as above

MP3 ... as Dead Glories states its on the units you shift, only once you become sucessful enough to really afford it they send in the vultures
But then again there are several encoding <-> decoding methods and it is very valuable knowing which are protected and which arn't.

Midi ... complete free, its the extended Midi's within the new cards which isn't but you must have a pretty upto date Midi Keyboard to create them which has the legalties within it because they're used alot in the music industry.

Exe, Bat, Com are all native Microsoft DOS program file types - and infact more to the point they're generlised descriptions.

Exe - Execution Files (Programs)
Bat - Batch File (Old version of AutoRun)
Com - Communication File (Program version of DLLs)
perfectly useable and free

most websites are www.[product].org/.com/.net
try combinations of them and you'll get the official site for them. I'd suggest emailing rather than trying to find over the site - its far quicker

Anata aru kowagaru no watashi!
Kangaroo2
22
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 26th Sep 2002
Location: United Kingdom
Posted: 4th Feb 2003 21:50
Ok thanks a lot Raven, I'll check it out

Coming Soon! Kangaroo2 Studio... wait and quiver with anticipation! lol
samjones@kangaroo2.com - http://www.kangaroo2.com - If the apocalypse comes, email me
Steverino
22
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 27th Aug 2002
Location: United States
Posted: 5th Feb 2003 06:14
GIFs are not free according to Unisys. Full story here: http://www.webmasterbase.com/article/629

(insert mental image of Raven's dancing Gir being led away in handcuffs)

Surrealist writing toy -- http://www.iconpoet.com
Shadow Robert
22
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 22nd Sep 2002
Location: Hertfordshire, England
Posted: 5th Feb 2003 08:01
lmao... now i have a mental image of GIR trying to hid his face with those dinky paws cuffed
Gif version 87 and 89a are apparently free, atleast according to the GIF homepage ... because there was no one origin for the formats, they're net breeds of the original format

i'll try to find the exact stuff a lil later with it, its also in the file format on Wotsit.org i think

Anata aru kowagaru no watashi!
empty
22
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 26th Aug 2002
Location: 3 boats down from the candy
Posted: 8th Feb 2003 01:38
It's not the file format that is the problem but the used compression method: LZW (or LZ78 to be more precise). This technology is owned by Unisys it's not free.

Ogres have layers.
empty
22
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 26th Aug 2002
Location: 3 boats down from the candy
Posted: 8th Feb 2003 01:38
This technology is owned by Unisys and it's not free.

Ogres have layers.
empty
22
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 26th Aug 2002
Location: 3 boats down from the candy
Posted: 8th Feb 2003 01:50
Quote: "
Midi ... complete free, its the extended Midi's within the new cards which isn't but you must have a pretty upto date Midi Keyboard to create them which has the legalties within it because they're used alot in the music industry.
"

LOL, what is this? You should do more investigations before you post things like this.
The Midi file format (in any shape and colour) is free. You don't need a pretty up-to-date keyboard to sequence midi files. Any keyboard that supports velocity and aftertouch will do.

Ogres have layers.
Shadow Robert
22
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 22nd Sep 2002
Location: Hertfordshire, England
Posted: 8th Feb 2003 04:12
Not not all the Midi formats are... if you use say a Yamaha 8388 then anything you produce is under licence to yamaha unless you pay them around $50,000 for commercial use.

Have a friend who has one which found this out the hard way, and there quite a few other General Midi formats.
and maybe the compression to Gif is own'd by Unisys - however as v87 and v89a are internet versions of v86 and are free.

Tsu'va Oni Ni Jyuuko Fiori Sei Tau!
One block follows the suit ... the whole suit of blocks is the path ... what have you found?
empty
22
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 26th Aug 2002
Location: 3 boats down from the candy
Posted: 8th Feb 2003 04:49
Quote: "
and maybe the compression to Gif is own'd by Unisys - however as v87 and v89a are internet versions of v86 and are free.
"

Free in the sense you can use them on your websites. But if you use it in an application that uses libraries to encode/decode that are NOT licensed to Unisys you can get into trouble. http://cloanto.com/users/mcb/19950127giflzw.html.
But AFAIK the patent runs until June 2003.


Quote: "
ot not all the Midi formats are... if you use say a Yamaha 8388 then anything you produce is under licence to yamaha unless you pay them around $50,000 for commercial use
"

What the hell is a Yamaha 8388? And you want to tell me that Yamaha produces devices and include such a license? How many would they sell? -1? Or less?

Quote: "
and there quite a few other General Midi formats.
"

GM is not a format (and if it was it wouldn't be plural 'cause it's called General). Now would you explain me what General Midi is? That would certainly quite interesting.

Ogres have layers.
Shadow Robert
22
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 22nd Sep 2002
Location: Hertfordshire, England
Posted: 8th Feb 2003 05:09
You don't need the libraries for the Gif 87 and 89a formats, they're freely available source.

The Yamaha 8388 and other keyboards for professional Midi and music development come with Licences for commercial use, pretty general practise.

As for the General Midi format is the Midi sets which are included as part of the extension to the standard Midi Instraments ... the format itself is no different persay, its extended and supported by most good soundcards now.

Roland still has thier own seperate Midi setup which can only be used under licence, and Dx can read and play the format wit most midi capable cards.

you really have to read the fine print within alot of licences to know what is and isn't actually legal

Tsu'va Oni Ni Jyuuko Fiori Sei Tau!
One block follows the suit ... the whole suit of blocks is the path ... what have you found?
Raven Vegeta
21
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 14th Dec 2002
Location: United Kingdom
Posted: 8th Feb 2003 11:45
Smells like Raven is wrong again . I mixing everything and looking like a jerky again . Here, listen. What u saying sounds like this:

" ot not all the BMP's formats are... if you use say a PHOTOSHOP then anything you produce is under licence to ADOBE unless you pay them around $$$$$$ for commercial use"

See, how stupid it sounds? Midi format is free... u can buy a cheap keyboard in a computer store for 100 bucks and compose whateever u want and don't pay a damn to anyone... if the format is free, it's free....

empty:

I appreciated ur comments, but unfortunally, we cannot argue with Vegeta. HE THINKS HE'S ALWAYS WRITE. And even having a streesful job at E.A, he will reply this forever all the day trying to prove u wrong with his huge spare time . He love's flamebaits. Classic, isn't it?

Watashi wa Eletronic Arts de shigoto o shimasu!
Raven Vegeta
21
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 14th Dec 2002
Location: United Kingdom
Posted: 8th Feb 2003 11:47
Note:

I mixing everything and looking like a jerky again

I meant YOU, instead of I But everyone knows u r the jerky and bad informed

Watashi wa Eletronic Arts de shigoto o shimasu!
empty
22
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 26th Aug 2002
Location: 3 boats down from the candy
Posted: 8th Feb 2003 14:05
Quote: "
You don't need the libraries for the Gif 87 and 89a formats, they're freely available source.
"

You need libraries for the LZW compression.

Quote: "
The Yamaha 8388 and other keyboards for professional Midi and music development come with Licences for commercial use, pretty general practise.
"

There's no such thing as a Yamaha 8388 keyboard and there's no such thing as a licence for commercial use. Keyboards are supposed to be used commercially.

Quote: "
As for the General Midi format is the Midi sets which are included as part of the extension to the standard Midi Instraments ... the format itself is no different persay, its extended and supported by most good soundcards now.
"

There's no such thing as a GM format. General Midi is a standard for sound generators that defines certain abilities an instrument must have to be GM conform.

Quote: "
Roland still has thier own seperate Midi setup which can only be used under licence, and Dx can read and play the format wit most midi capable cards.
"

Roland has not their own seperate Midi setup. Roland has developed an extension of GM which is called GS, like Yamaha has XG, and for none of them you have to pay fees.
As for DirectX (or DirectMusic), in commercial games they mainly use SGT files (segmented Midi files)) with DLS files (Downloadable sounds). SGT files were defined by Microsoft as an extension of SMF and are free, DLS files were defined by the Midi Assocation and are, you can guess it: free.

Ogres have layers.
empty
22
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 26th Aug 2002
Location: 3 boats down from the candy
Posted: 8th Feb 2003 14:11
Quote: "
And even having a streesful job at E.A, he will reply this forever all the day trying to prove u wrong with his huge spare time
"

Well actually I'm really interested in how he will try to prove me wrong. I'm even more interested in what a Yamaha 8388 is. I've been working in recording studios for nearly ten years and thought I know all of the Yamaha instruments...

Ogres have layers.
Shadow Robert
22
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 22nd Sep 2002
Location: Hertfordshire, England
Posted: 8th Feb 2003 17:08
well i guess you don't, or maybe you only know the hardware you purchase within whatever country you live in. Because the 8388 is a popular Midi keyboard within Japanese development companies ...

the patent which although held for the LZW is supposidly held but Unisys themselves. This is the whole Jpg fiasco again you know.

The patent held is not a viable one on the actual format itself, but the ideal of the format and a different one to which is in use today... but on this note the 87 & 89a formats are the rewrites from the online community, because they use something called Hoeffman encoding or something, which is a form of compression which is also used for Jpg2000.

The fact of the matter is that alot of companies will pay up rather than fight Unisys... because they are huge.
And if you check the time lines Unisys (thier current branding) hasn't been around as long as the encoding - which begs the question how can a company hold a patent to something, actually awarded to another company which although maybe a rename, the names on the patents don't change. But i guess that's been overlooked here too.

Plus read what you wrote back, Roland's version of GM is GS and Yamaha's is XG ... what exactly do you count GM as then? it is a midi format which uses the extensions of the Midi table. The formats base setup is similar to Standard Midi to be fully compatible however if you use the extended abilities then immediatly Standard Midi wavetables can't read them - there in is the extended data of the General Midi.
which it still confuses me why they called it General Midi rather than keeping Extended Midi.

They're not commercially free for use, if you read the licence agreements you have a limited number of things you can retail or something... then you own these companies money.

Same goes for Microsofts stuff - source is open for use, however it has a standard Microsoft agreement.
These agreements go into about 5-6pages of A4 though with you having to remember referendums throughout, which is a hard read.

They have a really weird agreement actually conserning thier DirectMusic Producer ... where you're only allowed to use it on the machine you download/install it on primarily if you want to use it on more machines then you must pay for the product. Yet later on it notes that you can download on one machine and install it from that but it must be over a network to use it on multiple machines.

you read some really weird shit when going through some of these lisences ... like the Windows Operating system aren't actually owned by the purchaser but by Microsoft and they have the right to tell you to uninstall it and disable your copy without reason.
quite absurd - but legally binding if you install the software, and the installation only has to be 50% ... and you've agreed to the terms and conditions.

Tsu'va Oni Ni Jyuuko Fiori Sei Tau!
One block follows the suit ... the whole suit of blocks is the path ... what have you found?
empty
22
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 26th Aug 2002
Location: 3 boats down from the candy
Posted: 8th Feb 2003 18:08
As for Gifs:
First: Gif87 is not a rewrite but was released by Compuserve.
Second: ALL Gif files use LZW compression AND NOT Huffman.
Third: LZW and Huffman are non-lossy compressions while Jpeg and Jpeg2000 use lossy compression methods.

As for Midi:
Quote: "
Because the 8388 is a popular Midi keyboard within Japanese development companies ...
"

Wrong. There is no Yamaha 8388. Neither in Japan nor in Europe nor in America nor anywhere else.

Quote: "
Plus read what you wrote back, Roland's version of GM is GS and Yamaha's is XG
"

Wrong again. Better you read what I wrote: GS and XG are extensions of the GM specs.

Quote: "
... what exactly do you count GM as then? it is a midi format which uses the extensions of the Midi table.
"

Wrong again. You know less than I've expected.
Midi Protocol is a music description language in binary form.
Standard Midi File (SMF) is a format to store Midi information on Disks
General Midi as well as GS, XG and GM2 are specifications that utilise the Midi protocol to provide more compatibilty.
It's NOT A FORMAT. Any midi sequencer can play Midi files that contain GM information even if it was produced or written before GM was released.

Quote: "
The formats base setup is similar to Standard Midi to be fully compatible however if you use the extended abilities then immediatly Standard Midi wavetables can't read them - there in is the extended data of the General Midi.
"

Wrong again. GM information are stored within SMFs. Midi has always allowed to store Non-registered parameters. GM uses both registered parameters and non registered parameters. If an instrument is not GM compliant it will ignore any parameters that it doesn't understand but still play the notes (althoug most probably with different sound programs than intended).

Quote: "
which it still confuses me why they called it General Midi rather than keeping Extended Midi.
"

Because it doesn't extend the midi protocol nor the SMF.

Quote: "
They're not commercially free for use, if you read the licence agreements you have a limited number of things you can retail or something... then you own these companies money.
"

Wrong again. They are free.


As for DirectMusic producer:
I advice you to re-read the licence agreement.

As for the Windows EULA:
You never own the software only the licence to use it. This applies to ALL software companies not only to MS.

Ogres have layers.
indi
22
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 26th Aug 2002
Location: Earth, Brisbane, Australia
Megaman X
22
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 21st Oct 2002
Location: Sweden
Posted: 8th Feb 2003 19:40
sorry but I have to...
heh

"A true warrior fights with skill, not anger..."

Gif edited by Kangaroo2
Teh Missingz0rs
21
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 6th Dec 2002
Location: United Kingdom
Posted: 8th Feb 2003 20:01
So, In conclusion, the world is full of legal vultures.

There is actually a page somewhere on the internet that lets you register a copywrite on any file extentions you create. That's how mattycarr_uk registered .3DP

If I find it, I'll tell ya.

Howling Mad Murdoch, at your service.
Puffy
22
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 4th Sep 2002
Location: United States
Posted: 8th Feb 2003 21:36
o_O.. ^_^ heh...

AMD Athlon XP 2100+ OC to 3Ghz/1.5gigs ram/128mb ti4200/120gigs hd/19" monitor/Sound Blaster Audigy Platinum EX/3072kbs Sat Con... I joined in!
Shadow Robert
22
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 22nd Sep 2002
Location: Hertfordshire, England
Posted: 8th Feb 2003 22:42
i talked to my friend and your right it isn't the 8388, its the SC-88p ... and very much has limitations on the commercial applications without a developers licence.

General Midi, GS, XG are all wavetable chips - which utilised EXTENDED synthsised instraments, you have the stardard 64 of the Midi format ... then you have the extensions added with General Midi, which was Rolands original extentions to the midi format - and WERE called Extended Midi, but then was renamed.

Listen to yourself on the explaination of how the Midi format is being used, the reserved extras are were placed in midi for the extension of the format ... however GM, GS and XG all use DIFFERENT instraments in these positions - which makes them thier OWN formats because only they know howto play back the sound, a standard midi sequencer can't handle this and will mesh ALL instraments into a single channel.

i mean look at it this way... PCX has around 58bytes of unregistered headerspace which is nessary, now if i change this space to setup some extra perameters like alpha channels or something - althought technically the format on the surface is PCX, the actual changes mean that it is an entirely new format of its own using parameters ONLY those image loaders which understand howto load them CAN.

What DirectMusic are your referring to, the Producer? or are your refering to the SDK notes - because using within the SDK as part of DirectX you can use these formats free, but you can't use them external of it or alter them in any way shape or form.

also i know software is licenced to use, but the fact is that Micrsoft give out an indefinate licence for Nth ammount of computer, yet they reserve the right to discontinue the licence if they do choose. Most other softwares don't do that..

Tsu'va Oni Ni Jyuuko Fiori Sei Tau!
One block follows the suit ... the whole suit of blocks is the path ... what have you found?
Raven Vegeta
21
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 14th Dec 2002
Location: United Kingdom
Posted: 8th Feb 2003 23:13
Raven could be a politic man... He talks nice ( with a bad english though, with expressions that only he understands like "instraments", "supposidly", "thier", "nessary") and wanna make everybody believes and "vote" at him
The bad english is good actually, so when I read some magazines here in UK with bad english, I know who wrote it ... yes, he not only work to E.A and created Tomb Raider and C&C Generals, he also write MANY articles to magazines...ghahhaha

Watashi wa Eletronic Arts de shigoto o shimasu!
empty
22
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 26th Aug 2002
Location: 3 boats down from the candy
Posted: 8th Feb 2003 23:35
Quote: "
i talked to my friend and your right it isn't the 8388, its the SC-88p ... and very much has limitations on the commercial applications without a developers licence.
"

LOL.
It's called SC-88 pro it was not made by Yamaha but by Roland is in not really professional and most of all, you'll be having a hard time to produce midi data with this device (except for a SysEx dump) cause it lacks the keyboard. Most of all there's no licence for this thing.


Quote: "
General Midi, GS, XG are all wavetable chips
"

Wrong again. GM, GS, XG, GM2 are specifiactions.

Quote: "
which utilised EXTENDED synthsised instraments, you have the stardard 64 of the Midi format ... then you have the extensions added with General Midi,
"

Wrong again. Neither the Midi Protocol itself, nor the SMF itself contains information about the position of sound programs. That is why GM was invented. But that doesn't change the Midi Protocol nor the SMF.

Quote: "
which was Rolands original extentions to the midi format - and WERE called Extended Midi, but then was renamed.
"

Wrong again. Extended Midi (XMIDI) was introduced by I think Digital Design 1995. First, it has nothing to do with Roland, second, GM was released 1991 and third the MMA didn't except it as a standard.

Quote: "
Listen to yourself on the explaination of how the Midi format is being used, the reserved extras are were placed in midi for the extension of the format ... however GM, GS and XG all use DIFFERENT instraments in these positions - which makes them thier OWN formats because only they know howto play back the sound.
"

The reserved extras are also used by all synthesizers for RealTime control or SysEx information. And they all use them differently. So all availabe midi synths have their own Midi format? And what has the position of sound programs within the sound generator do to with the midi format?

Quote: "
a standard midi sequencer can't handle this and will mesh ALL instraments into a single channel.
"

Wrong again. A midi sequencer will play each channel as it is supposed to be played.

Quote: "
i mean look at it this way... PCX has around 58bytes of unregistered headerspace which is nessary, now if i change this space to setup some extra perameters like alpha channels or something - althought technically the format on the surface is PCX, the actual changes mean that it is an entirely new format of its own using parameters ONLY those image loaders which understand howto load them CAN.
"

You see? A midi sequencer can play midi files with GM information even though i doesn't even know what GM is. BTW there's a huge difference between unused header bytes and unregistered parameters in the midi protocol.

Quote: "
What DirectMusic are your referring to, the Producer? or are your refering to the SDK notes - because using within the SDK as part of DirectX you can use these formats free, but you can't use them external of it or alter them in any way shape or form.
"

You were talking about license of the Producer.

Ogres have layers.
Megaman X
22
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 21st Oct 2002
Location: Sweden
Posted: 8th Feb 2003 23:52


"A true warrior fights with skill, not anger..."

Gif edited by Kangaroo2
Raven Vegeta
21
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 14th Dec 2002
Location: United Kingdom
Posted: 9th Feb 2003 13:27
empty

Congratulations empty . This is a bunch of usefull information with research and background, diferently from Raven's posts where he asks his friends and mom and thinks he understand everything, about everything Well done my friend

Watashi wa Eletronic Arts de shigoto o shimasu!
Richard Davey
Retired Moderator
22
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 30th Apr 2002
Location: On the Jupiter Probe
Posted: 9th Feb 2003 15:48
Ok guys - can we please leave it at this? I think I've learnt more about midi in this one thread than I ever really wanted to - it's blatantly obvious empty knows exactly what he's talking about so let's just leave it at that - I'd really rather not have any further "challenges" to what he's posted because it sounds pretty bloody conclusive to me!

Thanks.

Rich

"Gentlemen, we are about to short-circuit the Universe!"
DB Team / Atari ST / DarkForge / Retro Gaming

Login to post a reply

Server time is: 2024-11-24 17:53:19
Your offset time is: 2024-11-24 17:53:19