Sorry your browser is not supported!

You are using an outdated browser that does not support modern web technologies, in order to use this site please update to a new browser.

Browsers supported include Chrome, FireFox, Safari, Opera, Internet Explorer 10+ or Microsoft Edge.

3 Dimensional Chat / The top 4 creation tools that you are likely to use - evaluated!

Author
Message
Snipa Masta
20
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 20th Mar 2004
Location: Bristol,UK
Posted: 7th Jul 2005 23:29 Edited at: 11th Jul 2005 01:11
Ok, after the whole Maya/Cshop issue over in the Cartography Shop forum, I decided it'd be best to create a one-topic evaluation of the top 4 modellers used in the amateur game making community. Heck, if I'm unbiased enough maybe this will be stickied!

Milkshape 3d - A cheap (if you're not into STEALING SOFTWARE) solution for game making. Can easily (built in) export to pretty much every game format, and has a community full of people making SDK's to extend the possibilities even further. It can handle decent polycounts for games, but is not good for creating higher poly models to use as Normal Map references. However, for low poly it is abolutly perfect and compact, even if it does not have some of the features of Max or Maya.

Cartography Shop 4 - A nice map making tool that aims to provide simple mapping tools to amateur developers. It's tool are limited, and the interface is very basic. But, this means that it is more on-task, but doesn't compare to the likes of Max or Maya. It's good to use for Torque, but the best editor to use for Torque is Valve Hammer, which is essentially Carography Shop + A load more better features.

3d Studio Max - A common tool used by the industry (although, not quite the industry 'standard'). It has a vast array of tools - many of which aren't actually connected to 3d modelling, making the interface avast with useless buttons and gismos you'll never need to use. However, it also features lots of cooler features though, such as Boolean tools (which require a lot of cleaning up, unfortunatly). This is pretty much Milkshape 3d with a lot more clutter and much harder to control.

Maya - The industry standard for, well, everything relating to 3d. It has superior animation tools, modelling tools, and all this while having a rather simple interface. While it is not as easy to learn, for higher-class games, this is definitly the choice. When you learn to use it, you can certiantly create high class results in this, and much faster.

Evaluation?
Mapping - Maya
Modelling - Maya

Or, to the second (legal) choice:
Mapping - Cartography Shop
Modelling - Milkshape 3d.
Seppuku Arts
Moderator
20
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 18th Aug 2004
Location: Cambridgeshire, England
Posted: 8th Jul 2005 05:22
yeah cool, you forgot Cinema 4D and trueSpace, they're commonly used in the indie game making community, but yeah, thats a good choice, I think you should add for the dudes who can't afford them, so i'd put


Blender - modelling
Deled - mapping

as an example

John H
Retired Moderator
22
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 14th Oct 2002
Location: Burlington, VT
Posted: 9th Jul 2005 16:35
XSI|Foundation is a great alternative to Max for the intermediate->advanced modeller without the wallet for Max/Maya


Click here to join our forums and get updates on game progress sooner!
STALKER
19
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 16th Apr 2005
Location: Help! I\'m stuck in the printer!
Posted: 9th Jul 2005 18:45
yea its only aus$750 what a steal. not sure how good it is though. Thinkin of tryin it out

>>>>>>>>>>>MIRAGE STUDIOS<<<<<<<<<<<
>>MEDIEVAL CARNIVAL<->GLADIATOR ARENA<<
Snipa Masta
20
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 20th Mar 2004
Location: Bristol,UK
Posted: 9th Jul 2005 19:52
Yeah, I didn't include some of the others because I haven't used them. But if you write an explanation of them (try to be unbiased), I'll add it to the post.
Seppuku Arts
Moderator
20
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 18th Aug 2004
Location: Cambridgeshire, England
Posted: 9th Jul 2005 21:06
Hey Cinema 4D is AWWWESSSOOOMMME oh you said UNbiased lol



Cinema 4D, Is an easy tool to get the hang of, it offers built in shaders and you can make your own, theres a function called, SMELLS LIKE ALMONDS in it where it edits how the shaders work depending on the feature (can be used in colour, transparent, everthing that can use an image) which I manage to make a shadow that reflects rather than darkens with came on random. if you the more expensive packages you get feature like MOCCA, advanced render, pyrocluster, thinking particles etc, if you want to know more heres the website, offers good desriptions and demonstrations of the program.

http://www.maxon.net

TrueSpace/gameSpace- Confusing GUI, but you get the hang of it after a while, don't need to say much, all you need to do is click on GameSpace on the main TGC website or just go here, you can download the demo, you can make a render image and send it to the monthly demo gallery and if your's is the best, well you win a copy of TrueSpace 6, (only if you don't own TS 4 or above)
http://www.caligari.com

Softimage|XSI
I've only used the MOD tool which is completely free (which they have a similar competition to the trueSpace one, apart from the age restriction is 18 and you have to come up with the best game character, and theres a due in date) It has a powerful renderer, and the tools seem promising, I don't know exactly what all the features are. But I'm sure you can visit their website to find out.
http://www.softimage.com

Scarlet Neiko
19
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 14th May 2005
Location: not sure...
Posted: 10th Jul 2005 00:20
btw lightwave 8 (now with industry standard tools that it never previously had) has an educational price of about $300 or so...and lightwave 7.5 can be bought on ebay for around $80 up...considering the price of maya, 3ds max and gamespace for commercial purposes ...lightwave would be a cheaper investment... also it is rather easy to learn if you looking to spend on its $50 books that are pretty impressive if not incredible according to the detail levels and simplicity with which they explain....also i'm not quite sure about the license nature but upgrades cost about 400 dollars for registered users last time i checked....well if you convert the price... S i would say for the talented hobbiest lightwave is best...plus it has free dx and normal map plugins...
BiggAdd
Retired Moderator
20
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 6th Aug 2004
Location: != null
Posted: 10th Jul 2005 03:55
Cinema 4d........... IS GREEEAAAAAAAAT!
Raven
19
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 23rd Mar 2005
Location: Hertfordshire, England
Posted: 10th Jul 2005 05:31
Top 4, Modeling Software people are more likely to use are

Milkshape3D
Wings3D
Cinema4D
gameSpace

sorry but people bitch about having to splash out $25 for Milkshape3D yet can suddenly afford $5,999 for Maya? Get a sodding clue.

Also if your going to review products USE THEM, rather than open them for a few minutes and be like 'meh this is alright'.

Megaton Cat
21
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 24th Aug 2003
Location: Toronto, Canada
Posted: 10th Jul 2005 09:06 Edited at: 10th Jul 2005 09:07
Quote: "Also if your going to review products USE THEM, rather than open them for a few minutes and be like 'meh this is alright'."


I agree on that one. Actually TRY to use Maya over Cshop to make maps for that large game project you're working on, then evaluate it not on how powerful it's features are, but what you got done.

And how many limbs/braincells/relationships you lost in the process.

Seppuku Arts
Moderator
20
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 18th Aug 2004
Location: Cambridgeshire, England
Posted: 10th Jul 2005 21:30
Personally I'd use Cshop over Maya, sure maya is the all powerful, but I find Cshop is easier to use and you get more done in a short amount of time, Maya prolly could get more detail in, but what I would be using the maps for would be games not FMV, so detail just eats at the FPS.

When I first used Cshop demo I got the hang of the tools immediately as for Maya, I was like, wheres the objects, oh there they are, oooh a cube how do I move it! All I'm do is selecting ahhh, where are the tools!!! Shaders...so basicly Cshop is prolly best for game mapping, Maya is best for CG, not exactly practical for 3D models for game because Cinema 4D/3DS max and lightwave are cheaper and well low poly modelling in them isn't exactly that much differant.

Raven
19
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 23rd Mar 2005
Location: Hertfordshire, England
Posted: 10th Jul 2005 22:54
Depending on what sort of level creation your going to be doing depends on the tool I would prefer to use.

I honestly can't use or stand Cartography Shop. You might think the interface intuative, however I don't. I spend a good 2hours with the trial version that came with DB/P trying to figure out how to actually make a room stay, then trying to figure out how to hollow it, then trying to figure out how to texture it.

From my point of view it IS NOT obvious what does what. It is extremely fussy just like Worldcraft/Hammer, which in my eyes makes it a pain to try and use. You have to create worlds knowing the quirks of the application. Reading the manual is a pre-requist to actually achiving anything.

As far as Quake-Style Levels go I personally find GTKRadiant far more intelligent and understandable.

You want a room, Drag-Area -> Right-Click -> Make Solid.
You want that room hollowed, Right-Click -> Hollow (Select Depth)
You want to texture it, Shift+Left-Click -> Select the faces -> Select the Texture from the side.

everything you do in GTK is far easier and more understandable.
it is also much easier to view your levels.

that said without the manual for GTK again you'd be lost for hours trying to figure out the short-cut keys. I personally ABIDE short-cut programs, that rely 100% on the user knowing 1001 key combinations for each task.

This is why I prefer Maya for basically everything. Because everything you want to do has an icon on the interface right there.

Want to create a Cube..
Polygon Tab -> Click on the Cube Icon, you want to edit it's properties before creation Double-Click.

Select, Move, Rotate, Scale are all on the left hand-sde always ready to use.

Textures are a right-click away, or you can click on the 'Hyper-Shade' view button and manually create them.

Effects can be applied by simply dragging them onto objects.
Sorry but with the visual style of Maya the only thing that isn't obvious from the get go is how to move the camera. You can do everything else by purely explorering.

What's more is Maya comes with 6 training videos, which explain the most basic functionality of the application when you boot it up. EVEN Personal Learning Edition has them. So even if you don't want to read a manual you have a quick 45-1minute video explaining how the select tools work, how the rendering works, how the movement works, etc.

Not to mention the manual itself is full of tutorials (again YES even the PLE version) to help beginners to advaced users, for what they want to do.

Quote: "Maya is best for CG, not exactly practical for 3D models for game because Cinema 4D/3DS max and lightwave are cheaper and well low poly modelling in them isn't exactly that much differant."


Bollocks. Maya has far more and intuative tools for creating low-polygon work as it does for creating high-polygon work.

The tools are designed to scale, and again your suffering from the same issue that the original poster has. You used the products for a few minutes and rather than using them for long enough to make your own damn mind up you've thought 'this looks too hard' and given up then decided to spout of exactly what the communities do thinking you'll fit in.

God I hate posts like this. So much stupid mis-information and typical fanboy diatripe comes out.

Snipa Masta
20
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 20th Mar 2004
Location: Bristol,UK
Posted: 11th Jul 2005 01:09
Seppuku Geijutsu > No, you cannot get more done in the same time using Cshop. Maya is MUCH more powerful.

Raven> Regarding your first post, those aren't the top 4 used. 3dsmax, Maya, and CShop are the top 3 (and Milkshape, which you listed). 3d Studio Max and Maya works are definitly the most common. And a lot of maps for things are created with that. And Cshop is used quite a bit for mapping.

And your second, I agree 100%. Maya has a lot more low polygon modelling tools than it does high polly. This is due to the fact most high poly works are derived from low poly, for example, characters. And high poly props etc. are made the same way as low poly ones are, so the tools remain, predominatly, the same.
Seppuku Arts
Moderator
20
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 18th Aug 2004
Location: Cambridgeshire, England
Posted: 11th Jul 2005 01:13
But maya isn't a speciality in low poly, I mean I could do low poly what I can in C4D, and C4D is cheaper, Maya is much better than Cinmea 4D, but I would never go for Maya for just low poly or map modelling, cos I can get the same results in other programs, which I why I made the evaluations its best for CG, I love Maya myself, just never thought of it as a superior low poly prog.

Benjamin
22
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 24th Nov 2002
Location: France
Posted: 11th Jul 2005 01:19
Quote: " Seppuku Geijutsu > No, you cannot get more done in the same time using Cshop. Maya is MUCH more powerful."

What does power have to do with it? C++ is MUCH more powerfull than DBP, but it takes several times longer to program a 3D game in that.


"Lets migrate like bricks" - Me
Snipa Masta
20
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 20th Mar 2004
Location: Bristol,UK
Posted: 13th Jul 2005 02:50
Modelling is nothing like programming. In programming, to make it good, you have to use lots of functions. In modelling, if something is more poweful, it allows you to make things using less functions.
actarus
22
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 29th Aug 2002
Location: 32 Light Years away
Posted: 13th Jul 2005 03:10
Gamespace is one of the best options...

I don't know if it has any bugs but it's free,this should be a no-brainer and you guys should just cope with what comes with it.

If you're still unsatisfied with it's modeling tools,do it in Wings3D or Milkshape.The former is free and the latter 25 meager bucks.

BlackBird thinks he owns the sky,
But he can't look me in the eye,
-Andy Bell
Dark Serpent
20
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 24th Feb 2004
Location: U.S.A.
Posted: 13th Jul 2005 07:51
Also dont bad mouth 3ds max. Of course its an industry tool and its no way cluttered. all of tyhe modifiers are in a simple list. I dont know where you get ur dirt on 3ds max but its most likely the second best,and probably the most commonly used in the gaming industy. There are at leat 5 big name companies that use it.

Join my team, make games for the masses! Go Team Bolt Rocket!!! http://www.freewebs.com/teamboltrocket/
Seppuku Arts
Moderator
20
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 18th Aug 2004
Location: Cambridgeshire, England
Posted: 13th Jul 2005 08:32
No one bad mouth Max, its had feelings you know..........you mean it doesn't? Well don't bad mouth its gotta be the third best 3D app out there right, Houdini, Maya, Max, Softimage, Cinema 4D it goes dunnit?
Not Houdini, Maya, Softimage, Cinema 4D, Milkshape, Wings, max

geecee3
20
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 25th Feb 2004
Location: edinburgh.scotland.
Posted: 13th Jul 2005 10:25
If truth be said. It's very rare to see something made or shown on this forum that requires the sheer grunt of any of the top end packages that are being used. I'm still waiting to be 'fairly impressed' with a model for gaming use made by a forum member here. you may think that's sad, I'm just waiting for a model that can justify a top end package.

grant.

mmmm....computer....
Megaton Cat
21
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 24th Aug 2003
Location: Toronto, Canada
Posted: 13th Jul 2005 11:44
Quote: "I honestly can't use or stand Cartography Shop. You might think the interface intuative, however I don't. I spend a good 2hours with the trial version that came with DB/P trying to figure out how to actually make a room stay, then trying to figure out how to hollow it, then trying to figure out how to texture it."


It took me 10 minutes. This is very very obsurd. Someone who lead several network programming teams, created countless projects with Blizzard entertainment, worked as a personal spokespoerson/technical director for Nvidia, and ran for President...3 times, couldn't even figure out how to use an extremly simple cube-based level editor?

TEH_CODERER
21
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 12th Nov 2003
Location: Right behind you!
Posted: 13th Jul 2005 18:54 Edited at: 13th Jul 2005 18:54
I've said it before and I'll say it again; for levels, at least take a look at Quill3D from Idigicon.

Quote: "
You want a room, Drag-Area -> Right-Click -> Make Solid.
You want that room hollowed, Right-Click -> Hollow (Select Depth)
You want to texture it, Shift+Left-Click -> Select the faces -> Select the Texture from the side.
"


Ditto for Quill3D with a load more features besides. You can subtract objects from the scene, clip objects along lines, create brilliant lightmaps...the list goes on.

Quill3D has different modes as well. You can go into vertex modelling, create UV maps, and even build outdoor levels.

[url]andrewneale2004@yahoo.com[/url]
http://www.elbsoftware.dbspot.com
actarus
22
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 29th Aug 2002
Location: 32 Light Years away
Posted: 13th Jul 2005 20:55 Edited at: 13th Jul 2005 20:55
Quote: "If truth be said. It's very rare to see something made or shown on this forum that requires the sheer grunt of any of the top end packages that are being used. I'm still waiting to be 'fairly impressed' with a model for gaming use made by a forum member here. you may think that's sad, I'm just waiting for a model that can justify a top end package.
"


There have been alot of talents that passed on this website over the years,maybe haven't you just been around long enough?


BTW: Please people get your informations right!3dSMax is one of the most used/hated software in the industry,that's a fact.

PS:I'm not a Max addict XSI and Modo are my thing!

BlackBird thinks he owns the sky,
But he can't look me in the eye,
-Andy Bell
actarus
22
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 29th Aug 2002
Location: 32 Light Years away
Posted: 13th Jul 2005 20:58
Oh and also the money isn't an issue nor an argument.

If a software does it for you then use it but do that legally.

Most people here could get an educationnal version of most packages for a few hundred bucks and less than 100 sometimes.

BlackBird thinks he owns the sky,
But he can't look me in the eye,
-Andy Bell
Raven
19
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 23rd Mar 2005
Location: Hertfordshire, England
Posted: 13th Jul 2005 21:27
Quote: "BTW: Please people get your informations right!3dSMax is one of the most used/hated software in the industry,that's a fact."


That used to be true to a degree, but no so much now.
Simple fact was most development houses went for what was cheapest to do what they needed.

Maya : This is the original 3D Application, developed in 1982 this was the first and is the longest running development package. People use it simply because while it's features have evolved it's interface hasn't felt the need to "keep up", and honestly it is a very good and easy to use interface as is.

So if you've used a previous package you'll know exactly what you want is.

Softimage|XSI : Relatively new entry to the game development community, but due to it's rapid ability to create content as well as create CGI, not to mention it's Shader development features and pipeline previewing. It has really made it the package of choice for over half of the Console developers on the market today. With companies like Square-Enix, Capcom, Valve, Konami, and UbiSoft all praising it along with it's low cost it is very rapidly being replaced as applications are updated.

3D Studio Max : This is the original game artists tool, for the simple reason that it was designed like CAD and ran in DOS/Windows. It made it quite scalable and at the time was the cheapest solution available that could do Rendering, Animation & Modeling. It is currently being phased out due to costs, but some companies are holding on to it simply because it would mean staff would need to retrain themselves after so many years of use.

Lightwave 3D : This package was basically the tool of the budget companies throughout the past 10years. It's history is almost as long as Softimage and Maya in terms of CGI, however it's gaming carrer really has never been prodominant.

Those are the main packages you will use in your job.
Depending on the country will depend on which is more likely.

France, Japan & Canada use Softimage far more.
Germany and East-Coast America use 3D Studio Max more.
Maya is generally thr choice for just about everyone else, yet will very rarely be the lasted edition.
Lightwave is still primarily used for companies on very tight budgets.

With Price Wars currently going on with the major packages, the tides are certainly changing. While I personally can't stand to use XSI, one thing is for sure and that is it IS a very powerful tool capable of slashing your pipeline development time to shreds.

I would say that XSI is currently top-dog.
Maya will always have it's simplicity and pure power.
Max will always be a CAD program in a 3D world.
Lightwave will always be the budget choice.

Yet as I said.. that is not the list which people here would be willing to pay for. That's a simple fact, and if you don't like that then quite frankly tough.

You might be alright having your college purchase high-end PCs and Maya Licenses to do all your work on, but the adverage joe bloggs doesn't have that luxury and they use what is available.

actarus
22
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 29th Aug 2002
Location: 32 Light Years away
Posted: 13th Jul 2005 21:47 Edited at: 13th Jul 2005 21:47
The XSI community is growing but alas Maya is still ahead AFA userbase,educationnal material,3rd party dev are concerned.

This will change though.


It's a ferocious time for software vendors,everybody lowers the prices while still delivering high quality products...In the end,we,the artists,are the real winners.


It's a good time for us.

BlackBird thinks he owns the sky,
But he can't look me in the eye,
-Andy Bell
Seppuku Arts
Moderator
20
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 18th Aug 2004
Location: Cambridgeshire, England
Posted: 13th Jul 2005 23:20
someone wanted good low poly models to justify comments, okay

3DS Max, look at Prince of Persia: Warrior Within
Softimage|XSI, look at the new Metal Gear Solid

theres two

Raven
19
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 23rd Mar 2005
Location: Hertfordshire, England
Posted: 14th Jul 2005 03:33
Quote: "3DS Max, look at Prince of Persia: Warrior Within"


If that's true, why did they go on record over at Softimage promoting XSI as thier production tool?

Quote: "The XSI community is growing but alas Maya is still ahead AFA userbase,educationnal material,3rd party dev are concerned."


Education Institutes I'll agree is mostly Maya, the games market which I think is more to focus on in this case however is a different story altogether.

Personally I'll be happy to leave the pirates out of this "user-base", if you ever go on Alias.com and checkout how many people in the community forum actually have Silver / Gold / Platinum Accounts allowing them to actually view 90% of the content, you'd see it paints a different story than those claiming they've bought it.

That said right now Alias has a bigger official community, more friendly.

Max has the Fanboys. Those kinda guys who once they believe Max is the best will never admit otherwise or even glimpse at another program.

Softimage has the most approachable company. You can literally talk to Avid about features, bugs, etc. and they will do thier best to help. No doubt this is another reason for the recent huge shift in developers.

Maya and XSI still have some very prestigious titles under thier belt as of late, Max appears to be slipping more and more as that program used because you feel you have no other choice.

BiggAdd
Retired Moderator
20
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 6th Aug 2004
Location: != null
Posted: 14th Jul 2005 05:50 Edited at: 14th Jul 2005 05:51
Nobody is giving much credit to cinema 4D. Its a new program in its market against Maya and 3ds max... and it shows because at the moment it hasn't got as many plugins or features as the other 2. To render hair in cinema 4D u have to spen an extra $250 on an upgrade. However Cinema 4D diddn't do too badly in the film "The polar express". Cinema 4D isn't just for high poly modeling. There is a polygon reduction tool in cinema 4D which is realy good!
MikeS
Retired Moderator
21
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 2nd Dec 2002
Location: United States
Posted: 14th Jul 2005 06:00
I believe Lightwave was used in Chrono Cross for the majority of the models. Just to throw that out.



A book? I hate book. Book is stupid.
(Formerly Yellow)
Seppuku Arts
Moderator
20
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 18th Aug 2004
Location: Cambridgeshire, England
Posted: 14th Jul 2005 21:31
Ok, heres the C4D credit

I own C4D 6 and a demo of C4D studio 9, in my own opinion I think they are great.
Studio is very powerful and has lot of features that are comparible to Maya and Max, as they have clothing/cloth abilities and an advanced particles features, and you can buy the hair addon for it, and HDRI lighting, Radiosity and caustics in its renderer, I find the tools are really easy to use and the program is fast (and Maya PLE was slow on my system) it also has the Sketch and toon feature making your 3D into 2D in a sketchy or Cartoon like effect. Unfortunately what gets me down in C4D is the Inverse Kinematics, why well they are similar to thos of Anim8or, just with a little more, and is no way near as good as the animation tools in Max and Maya, and doesn't have as many fancy features such as fluids(maya unlimited) or camera tracking (Max and Maya unlimited) but I would buy Xl or Studio versions over Maya complete as they are priced on a similar range.


Maya, Max and Houdini may be the best, but Cinema 4D I'd say is the easiest and not as power hungry, and well is pretty impressive itself and I'd say its worth its price and well the Polar Express is no Robots or Finding Nemo, but well the graphics were still good in that.


Oh and to name another game to be released with Cinema 4D, Ronin


@ Raven, yeah Max has fanboys, I know a few, how EXPECT ME TO BUY IT!!!!! And ofcourse Max fan boys aren't mac likers (because Mac's don't like Max!)

Login to post a reply

Server time is: 2024-11-27 16:43:18
Your offset time is: 2024-11-27 16:43:18