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Geek Culture / [Flamebait] My experience with DB

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Outcast
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Posted: 13th Feb 2003 04:26
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Dark Basic:
Pros: The new 2003 demo shows you how easy it is to put together a game. Large user base. Looks like there are a lot of functions compared to BB, not sure how useful they all are. Functions like newxvalue can be rewritten in a line of BB.
Cons: 2003 tutorial code has a lot to be desired. It did let me get the basics down, but when introducing a new DB function, it would just as often fail to work as it would succeed. It was obviously written by a non-programmer. Magic numbers appear all over the code. Of course DB promotes this style of programming by having the caller provide unique id's instead of passing them back from the called function. Texture loading as the tutorial describes does not work in the demo, nor does gluing limbs to objects. The terrain is also not textured properly, and I'm not sure if this is a problem with MatEdit, DBP, or what. Both the DBA I tried to write and the one generated by MatEdit did not texture the terrain correctly. I tried to repeatedly get answers to this in the newcomer section, but no one else seems to have this problem.

The forums are a mixed bag. With no search function, I'm left to wade through pages and pages of posts in an attempt to find anyone that has had my problems. This is unacceptable.

Then, to have the demo not work on function calls made in the tutorial...again, unacceptable. The demo is suppose to be showing me why DB is the must have program I want it to be. When I have trouble with feature after feature, that tells me the full blown version isn't going to be much better. Yes, I know, patch 3 makes everything beautiful. Why not have the demo built off patch 3 then?

I also couldn't find a way to make constants or a way to make global variables, other than to make a single cell array, which is pretty pathetic. Please enlighten me if there is a way.

As it stands, I'm off to greener pastures. I haven't played with BlitzBasic as much, but I have gotten more of the tutorial working correctly under the BB demo than I did under the DBPro demo. That is just sad.

It amazes me that such a large and loyal community has grown up around something as buggy and unsupported as DB. Let this serve as a warning to anyone else considering DB as a purchase. Kudos to you however far back in the history you dig for this, because no search engine will ever turn it up.

Outcast
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Richard Davey
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Posted: 13th Feb 2003 04:36
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You're trying to get a DB tutorial working on DBPro, the command set isn't significantly different - but different enough for this to not work properly. That's why we put the tutorial on the DB site, because it's for DB classic.

To make a global variable stick the world "global" infront of it.

The grass is always greener on the other side.

Cheers,

Rich

"Gentlemen, we are about to short-circuit the Universe!"
DB Team / Atari ST / DarkForge / Retro Gaming
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Dean
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Posted: 13th Feb 2003 05:20
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Outcast:

And of course you've made a massive Programming language of your own and released it perfectly on the first try

why are people so damn quick to put down a piece of software that they couldn't even imaging making on their own? It's still being tested! Just hold on to your pants, people! It's not like DBP is in it's final release


''Mmmm.. Tastes like Nazca!''
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Dean
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Posted: 13th Feb 2003 05:22
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oh, and I'm not saying Outcast is the only one to do that, a lot of people do, its just starting to annoy me


''Mmmm.. Tastes like Nazca!''
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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 13th Feb 2003 06:12
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i think the fact you have more working in BB than Pro isn't the fact that Pro is too buggy ... however more on the fact that you expect the functions within DarkBasic Standard to work exactly the same within Professional.

Now while we'd all like this to be true (i mean i personally thought that WAS the point in keeping the legacy of the language) - it doesn't take a genius to code thier way around the obvious flaws.

the community if you notice is actually split into several groups as it stands ...

Those loyal to DB
Nebwies trying out DB
Those who prefer DB but also use Blitz
and Those who prefer Blitz but come here to bitch about Pro's current teething problems.

pah ho hum... well if another one wants to be a bliter let him - they always come back

Tsu'va Oni Ni Jyuuko Fiori Sei Tau!
One block follows the suit ... the whole suit of blocks is the path ... what have you found?
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Outcast
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Posted: 13th Feb 2003 16:24
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See, whenever I use Visual C++ Professional, Visual C++ Enterprise, or whatever other versions of Visual C++ there are, I'm pretty safe in assuming that the properties of C++ are still there, especially the obvious one (inheritance doesn't change how it's used for instance).

Why is this different with DBPro? I make a call to "load image" and get an exception every time. Glue object to limb does the same thing. I look up the documentation in the index, and it looks like I'm using it correctly. I tried posting to see if anyone else had a solution for me, and got nothing. DB has been on the market for four years, that's long enough to get some of these basic "teething problems" over with.

The reason I complain is because there are comparable products on the market that DB is competing with (I'm not just talking about BB), and I only expect new and more sophisticated products to spring up over the years. I don't know the first thing about making a cell phone, but I can tell you when I'm getting crappy reception and service.

Outcast

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Richard Davey
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Posted: 13th Feb 2003 16:29
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Show me your code (and image file) that causes "load image" to fail for you. That is not a "teething problem", it works perfectly, so I want to see why it doesn't for you.

Oh and in reply to the very first message I also forgot to say that you can use the command "constant" to, well.. I'll let you figure it out!

Cheers,

Rich

"Gentlemen, we are about to short-circuit the Universe!"
DB Team / Atari ST / DarkForge / Retro Gaming
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Outcast
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Posted: 13th Feb 2003 18:49
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I've already posted this code in the newcomers section with no reply. But here it is again. I'd rather use variables, but I've tried putting straight integers in the image number slots. Once, I got DBP Demo to load the texture, but once I tried to texture the object - exception. I tried unique numbers not used anywhere else in the program. Didn't work. Sometimes it exceptions, sometimes, DBPro Demo just sits there with a black screen.

And when I tried to use global in front of any of these variables, I got a compile error four lines about the use of global that said "#100025: Declaration name " is not valid at line X" where X is 4 lines less than the line global sits on. I could not find any help on the use of global or constant.

Also, the 3d model of the hovercraft loads fine. But when I load a texture from the same directory, it barfs. It sucks that the only time anyone has offered to help me is when I've bitched about the problems DBPro Demo has.

Outcast



LOAD IMAGE
This command will load a picture file as an image. The picture file must be of the BMP, JPG, TGA, DDS, DIB or PNG format. All images loaded are prepared with mipmaps if
they do not already have them, and stored with all pixel data intact. This differs from loading DDS image files which are stretched to the textures they occupy.

SYNTAX
LOAD IMAGE Filename, Image Number
LOAD IMAGE Filename, Image Number, Texture Flag

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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 13th Feb 2003 20:01
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DarkBasic Standard has been here for 4year, Enhanced little over 1 & Half... DarkBasic Pro just about 4months, Pro is still really in the very early stages here - add to this it IS a new language, don't be fooled by the legacy front because it has 100% new code from the get go!

we see people complaining about these very things daily, and so in general most of these WILL be ignored by older users because we are sick and tired of constantly repeating ourselves about things which are very simple.



perhaps this isn't in the help right now, but alot of the programming is common sense especially when you veiw how other are programming within these languages - and there has been ALOT of more and more advanced code snippets as of late around here.

Tsu'va Oni Ni Jyuuko Fiori Sei Tau!
One block follows the suit ... the whole suit of blocks is the path ... what have you found?
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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 13th Feb 2003 20:03
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global is for use for arrays as unsigned variables within functions to use that data externally ...
localis to make sure global information suchas Data Type attachements are kept local to that particular function so you can use the definitions multiple times.

Tsu'va Oni Ni Jyuuko Fiori Sei Tau!
One block follows the suit ... the whole suit of blocks is the path ... what have you found?
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John H
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Posted: 13th Feb 2003 23:12
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Sounds like a noob complaining that they cant make a great program in 5 days.

Dont dis DB because you cant code it, and dont make these kinds of comments (please) if something doesnt work, just not cool.

Is your image in the same directory as your code? Have you saved your code before trying to load the image? Are you calling the image from the right directory? All of these things could be making your proggy go wrong.

RPGamer

Current - RPG: Eternal Destiny : Help Wanted!
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Dont ask those questions! Read the help files lazy!
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John H
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Posted: 13th Feb 2003 23:21
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Dean: Im sure he has Hasnt every crazy noob programmed a fully working programming language and released it to the public and got to be this popular! Duh! Its easy!

I 100% Agree with you Dean

Please dont complain when people reply to your threads. We have our own programs to be hard at work on, and for Rich, hard at work on the whole language.

Rich and the rest of the DB crew have done a spectacular thing in programming this whole language for us. Go out yourself and program a new language, and see how many people thing yours is flawless.

Why shouldnt the demo come with everything working?

DUH!! Its a DEMO!! Look it up in the dictionary! It gives you a taste of it, not the whole thing. Too bad you have so many against you! I agree, it is a little buggy, but DBpro has been out for not even a year I think its pretty damn good for this short of a time span.

We have had people come and complain "Oh the demo is soooo buggy, DB sucks!" and then when we help them and see what the problem is, they see how dumb they really are, and that their proggy not working because of their own dumb self. I find it quite funny when people like this come around, and when they find out they are doing something wrong, and fix it, its simply hilarious

When you program yourself a whole new programming language, bug free (yet alone popular and selling) come back here and show us. Then we can be the judge of how great your langauge is compared to DB.

Until then,
RPGamer

MODS: I am sorry for anything I have said in this post, feel free to edit anything I have said I just feel strongly for DB, and respect all those who make it possible, and quite frankly find it rude and annoying when people blame you guys for everything that they do wrong Apologies in advance

Current - RPG: Eternal Destiny : Help Wanted!
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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 14th Feb 2003 00:58
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well i don't understand the problem to be honest because the code he posted worked in my trial version - on both my own and my brother machines, plus my laptop.

i still posted up the recode thou in a more DBPro friendly form ... would be nice if people didn't do this every few weeks and post up things that turn newbies off the language. Wonder if someone should go about developing a Pro version of the new tutorial, perhaps then some confusion is subsided

Tsu'va Oni Ni Jyuuko Fiori Sei Tau!
One block follows the suit ... the whole suit of blocks is the path ... what have you found?
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Richard Davey
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Posted: 14th Feb 2003 01:54
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"It sucks that the only time anyone has offered to help me is when I've bitched about the problems DBPro Demo has."

True, you should have emailed me (not that you probably even knew who I was) because I help people out with things like this most days.

Guys - please, give Outcast a break - his original post might not have engenered much "respect", but he's having trouble getting something working and has obviously been trying various methods - this is not the actions of someone who's "dumb", I respect him for having tried various ways to resolve a problem that on the surface doesn't even look like it should be a problem!

Outcast - it will probably be better if we carry this on via email, so drop me a line (rich@darkbasic.com) and we'll sort it out. I've never tried running the Limit Rush code in DBPro because I knew it was written for DB and never held out much hope it would even compile, let alone work; the two languages are just too different in their internals.

Cheers,

Rich

"Gentlemen, we are about to short-circuit the Universe!"
DB Team / Atari ST / DarkForge / Retro Gaming
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Megaman X
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Posted: 14th Feb 2003 02:05
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What nice attitude Rich... that's why DB rocks

"A true warrior fights with skill, not anger..."

Gif edited by Kangaroo2
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John H
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Posted: 14th Feb 2003 03:28
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I withdraw

Current - RPG: Eternal Destiny : Help Wanted!
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Outcast
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Posted: 14th Feb 2003 06:46
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Thanks Rich,

This posting is the first time I heard of the tutorial not working under DBPro. I had heard the language was rewritten, but I assumed this was just to straighten up architecture issues behind the scenes. I also was under the impression that DBPro was out for much longer than it has been. My apologies.

I know the cons section was much longer than the pros, and I have been greatly impressed by how much DBPro can do in so little code, it's just my frustration in not being able to get "simple" things to work got the best of me.

Truce.

Outcast

P.S. My main point in this thread is that for DB to survive, it will have to be perceived as being a quality product. If there are misunderstandings about what code works with what version, incorrect documentation, then it's just giving competitors a foot in the door, a door that will grow larger with every passing year. And, for those of you that suggested I write a language, I have (albeit not for distribution), and I have a clear understanding of their complexity.

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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 14th Feb 2003 14:45
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Outcast around 4months when Professional was first released alot of the tutorials which came with Standard wouldn't port exactly.
It can be understood the frustration about a product, however posting in such a way isn't a good way of getting constructive help - you'll just end up pissing most people off.

But you must remember, DarkBasic Standard Tutorials have been developed for use within DarkBasic Standard/Enhanced - and not for DarkBasic Professional, and should always be looked into adaption before crying out for help.

Should also remember to have the lastest version of Professional - believe it or not we went through the exact same teething problems with Standard around 3-4years back ... the stable product which is available today took almost a year to be available, and when a finally reliably version was finished it bacame the standard release (1.08)

inheriently i think a good few bugs will pan themselves out over patch4 simply because you're not having to deal with mutliple obejct types, so whilst DirectX objects might be fully stable - 3DS arn't as greatly, because they're being handled seperatly rather than as the same kind of entity

Tsu'va Oni Ni Jyuuko Fiori Sei Tau!
One block follows the suit ... the whole suit of blocks is the path ... what have you found?
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Teh Missingz0rs
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Posted: 17th Feb 2003 23:44
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In conclusion, DB rules, Blitz does too, and neither of them is better than the other, just different. And so, with happiness in their hearts and forgiveness in their minds, they set forth to build a new, better, hate free society, never achieved before achieved due to that foul predudice that cluttered their souls. And then they programmed a PONG clone, and, Verily, It was good.

I love a happy ending.

For those of you who haven't guessed, I like sugar.

It's a Selecta.
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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 18th Feb 2003 00:20
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yes ordinary sugar... laced with LSD

Tsu'va Oni Ni Jyuuko Fiori Sei Tau!
One block follows the suit ... the whole suit of blocks is the path ... what have you found?
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PiratSS
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Posted: 18th Feb 2003 00:22
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OMG, you guys flamed him hehe...

Specs: Dual Amd Athlon 2Ghz(1Ghz x 2), 40GB 15000 Rpm SCSI Hard Drive, 640 Mb 266Mhz DDR, 12x8x32 CDRW, ATI Rage Fury Pro 32Mb SD Video, 17' Monitor
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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 18th Feb 2003 00:24
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flamed him ??

it was hardly even a paperfire

Tsu'va Oni Ni Jyuuko Fiori Sei Tau!
One block follows the suit ... the whole suit of blocks is the path ... what have you found?
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rapscaLLion
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Posted: 18th Feb 2003 06:49
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wwwwwwwweeeeeeeeeeeeeee!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Just a bit of advice for you outkast, although the noob forum is great, many people who could help, choose not to. It's just too tiring to go into the noob boards I find
If you are having a real problem, ask rich, lee or mike, although I would try rich first. They make up much of the DB Team, but there still is rick and guy savoie. They will usually lbe able to help you, although there was that one time when I compiled an app on my comp, and lee compiled on his comp (same version of DB) and his was error free, while mine was fill of matrix and ghosting errors. That was an interesting problem I'm still trying to figure out... well enough about me I guess, except that:

Give people like outkast a break. I would be angry too if a language couldn't even load an image... in fact I get very frustrated a lot during coding sessions I probably wouldn't go on a rampage, but I can understand why people do

Alex Wanuch
aka rapscaLLion
Kousen Dev Progress >> Currently Working On Editors
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MrDuck
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Posted: 18th Feb 2003 10:56
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Greets...

The only limitation I have found with DB(standard) is error documentation...specifics mostly...generalities are there but not what a specific error means...such as:

COMPILER ERROR.TOO MANY IMMEDIATE STRINGS

I'd like to know what that one means myself!

But syntax errors?...that's an invalid programmer...(me included...done it way too many times to even admit it!)

Quack!<I just did>

But I'm very happy with what I've done with DB...and am very impressed with what I've seen it can do!...

true...everything has a limit...and everything can't work perfectly...(maybe in dreams...no...forgot about nightmares)...but damn!<sorry>...until you become God...just be happy that you're alive...and when you stumble...get up...and start learning to pick up your feet...(parable for DB programming...fail'd miserably)...Quack!

I know there is a better way for my program (an RPG) to work...look...better coding skills I have to acquire...even in the editor...I know there's WAY more I can do to make more efficient...better documentaion...better tags...better everything...and in a few years...Cryminy and Gee willikers...I'll be getting requests to do day time TV...but for now?...not even!...Heck!...I've even found flaws in my flowcharts...and that's on paper!<quack!>

For those of you who know the ins and outs (and I mean who truly understand programming like a walk to the back of a bus) it must be...common place to look...see...and then do...and that's not a chide remark...because to me...I wish I could do...<heck...I have a problem with english(speaking it)> what it is you just do naturally...

Yeah...it is frustrating to me...because some of the math...or variables...or some of the more complex commands escape my understanding...and I have to rely on tutorials...and then mess with the code that's there...watch what happens...and then in my fowl little mind grasp what it is that happened...

I then do my own code...according to what I think I just understood...and go from there...but that's also extremely cool!...work or don't work...it's awesome either way<personally I'd like it to work everytime!>quack!

So if it don't work...fix-it!
If you don't get it...ask!
And if it still is making you flippity'd?...
Go have a cold coke...a breath of fresh air...then try again...

Thanx to all who had the patience to read all of this...
and thanx to all who know...you've helped allot...

BTW...what does...
COMPILER ERROR.TOO MANY IMMEDIATE STRINGS
mean anyway?...

Mr. Duck..........quack!
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