Is C# a doable language with the SDK?

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Alexa Too

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Posted: 21st Sep 2005 10:51

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Also, is it better to stick with C++ for speed (i.e. non-interpreted/parsed such as managed languages)?

Any pointers in language selection are welcome (in terms of the SDK and in game programming in general).

Thanks,
Alexa

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OSX Using Happy Dude

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Posted: 21st Sep 2005 12:47

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Yes, C# wont work with DarkSDK - dont directly anyway. Best to stick to C/C++

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Raven

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Posted: 21st Sep 2005 16:24

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DGSDK is designed to link through the .lib and header files.
For C# you'll need to exther export a class dll via C++, or use the DLLs to import all of the functions.

To be honest, C# with DirectX9 and Application Framework (provided as part of the SDK) isn't that much more difficult that using DGSDK.

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Alexa Too

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Posted: 21st Sep 2005 16:33

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Sounds like I should go with C++ for ease.

Thanks for the input guys.

Alexa

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AndLabs

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Posted: 21st Sep 2005 22:33

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And the million dollar question now is: can DGSDK be ported to C#? YES! C# was built for the .net framework, which is mostly dlls, so why not compile both the DGSDK and DirectX SDK as a dll and build a C# compiler that uses both SDKs as resources, like with the .net framework?

TGC WORKERS PLEASE READ THE ABOVE!! THAT GOES DOUBLE FOR YOU, LEE!!

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OSX Using Happy Dude

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Posted: 21st Sep 2005 22:40

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Doubt Lee has any intention of converting it to C# - there is no need to anyway.

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IanM

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Posted: 21st Sep 2005 23:46

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Quote: "can DGSDK be ported to C#? YES!"

That is 100% correct, but let's take a closer look ...

It took around 6 man-years (probably) to get DBPro and DSDK to this stage ... now you want the guys to port to a completely different language? Let's just assume that it'll take half that time to port - 3 man-years, divided by the two primary coders, makes a year-and-a half... Assuming that they spend no more time on FPSC, bug fixes, or new functionality.

Strike 1.

It's enough work to keep the current single-language implementation maintained, so you also want to double their workload once they do have it running under another language.

Strike 2.

With these commands compiled into DLL, the DLLs would need to be distributed with any game you ship. If they are .NET, that opens them up to anyone being able to use them without having bought the product. If you read the license agreement, you'll see that this is specifically covered, and is not allowed, probably for this very reason.

Strike 3 - you're outa here

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AndLabs

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Posted: 22nd Sep 2005 22:37

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OK:

So? C# is C++ made easy, so it is easier to port to C# than, say, Euphoria.

Rebuttal 1.

Compile the original code as DLLs and build a C# compiler especially for those dlls, like TGC built the DBPro compiler.

Rebuttal 2.

If you build your own C# compiler to build programs for your own .dll framework, there is no need to include .net

Rebuttal 3 - I'm still in.

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OSX Using Happy Dude

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Posted: 22nd Sep 2005 23:17 Edited at: 22nd Sep 2005 23:18

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It still takes time... Plus each user would have to make sure .Net is installed.

It just wont happen.

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AndLabs

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Posted: 22nd Sep 2005 23:23 Edited at: 22nd Sep 2005 23:24

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Yes, it will take time, but about the it just won't happen part:

Wrong, wrong, WRONG! You are concered with "C# is for .net" while the fact is "Visual C# is for .net, but C# can be ported, just like any other similar language." Unless Microsoft copyrighted C# so that one could not make a custom compiler for it (which I think absurd), go make a C# compiler that does NOT use .net, but compiles for another DLL! If you want, I can show an example, but I will need a long post.

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OSX Using Happy Dude

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Posted: 22nd Sep 2005 23:29 Edited at: 22nd Sep 2005 23:31

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Quote: "Wrong, wrong, WRONG!"

Wrong, wrong, wrong! Do you expect Lee to start learning C# any time soon ? There is quite a big difference...

Didn't know C# could be ported. Very nice of Microsoft to let us...

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AndLabs

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Posted: 23rd Sep 2005 00:55

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C# is simple to learn because it is an offset of C++.

Here is an example.

Let's say you wrote a DLL in C++:

/*
EasyWriteConsole DLL
A Console Output DLL
By Pietro Gagliardi
22 September 2005
*/

// Includes
#include <iostream>
#include <cstdlib>
#include <cstdio>

// Function Declarations
void Write(char *c);
void Write(int i);
void Write(double d);
void WriteLn(char *c);
void WriteLn(int i);
void WriteLn(double d);
void WriteLn();
void WriteErr(char *err);
void WriteErr(int id);
void Bell();
void WaitKey();

// Write :: Writes output to the console and leaves the cursor there
// VERSION ONE: *c = A string of chars (char* format)
void Write(char *c) { cout << *c; }
// VERSION TWO: i = An integer (int format)
void Write(int i) { cout << i; }
// VERSION THREE: f = A floating-point value (double format)
void Write(double f) { cout << f; }

// WriteLn :: Writes output to the console, makes a newline, and leaves the cursor there
// VERSION ONE: *c = A string of chars (char* format)
void WriteLn(char *c) { cout << *c << endl; }
// VERSION TWO: i = An integer (int format)
void WriteLn(int i) { cout << i << endl; }
// VERSION THREE: f = A floating-point value (double format)
void WriteLn(double d) { cout << d << endl; }
// VERSION FOUR: No parameters. Simply prints a newline.
void WriteLn() { cout << endl; }

// WriteErr :: Writes errors to the screen.
// VERSION ONE: *err - A string error (char* format)
void WriteErr(char *err) { Bell(); puts(err); }
// VERSION TWO: id - An integer defining which OS internal
//  error to output (int format)
void WriteErr(int id) { Bell(); puts(strerror(id)); }

// Bell :: Dings the system bell. No parameters.
void Bell() { cout << "\a"; }

// WaitKey :: Waits for the user to press a key. No
//  parameters.
void WaitKey() { cout << "\n"; system("pause"); }

+ Code Snippet

/*
EasyWriteConsole DLL
A Console Output DLL
By Pietro Gagliardi
22 September 2005
*/

// Includes
#include <iostream>
#include <cstdlib>
#include <cstdio>

// Function Declarations
void Write(char *c);
void Write(int i);
void Write(double d);
void WriteLn(char *c);
void WriteLn(int i);
void WriteLn(double d);
void WriteLn();
void WriteErr(char *err);
void WriteErr(int id);
void Bell();
void WaitKey();

// Write :: Writes output to the console and leaves the cursor there
// VERSION ONE: *c = A string of chars (char* format)
void Write(char *c) { cout << *c; }
// VERSION TWO: i = An integer (int format)
void Write(int i) { cout << i; }
// VERSION THREE: f = A floating-point value (double format)
void Write(double f) { cout << f; }

// WriteLn :: Writes output to the console, makes a newline, and leaves the cursor there
// VERSION ONE: *c = A string of chars (char* format)
void WriteLn(char *c) { cout << *c << endl; }
// VERSION TWO: i = An integer (int format)
void WriteLn(int i) { cout << i << endl; }
// VERSION THREE: f = A floating-point value (double format)
void WriteLn(double d) { cout << d << endl; }
// VERSION FOUR: No parameters. Simply prints a newline.
void WriteLn() { cout << endl; }

// WriteErr :: Writes errors to the screen.
// VERSION ONE: *err - A string error (char* format)
void WriteErr(char *err) { Bell(); puts(err); }
// VERSION TWO: id - An integer defining which OS internal
//  error to output (int format)
void WriteErr(int id) { Bell(); puts(strerror(id)); }

// Bell :: Dings the system bell. No parameters.
void Bell() { cout << "\a"; }

// WaitKey :: Waits for the user to press a key. No
//  parameters.
void WaitKey() { cout << "\n"; system("pause"); }

If you use a C++ compiler, you can compile that to a DLL.

Now all you need to do is build a C# compiler that compiles the application and expects the DLL in the system folder. That is frameworking!

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AndLabs

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Posted: 23rd Sep 2005 00:57

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PS - A good namespace for that DLL would be the DLL's filename minus the extnsions. So if the DLL is "easycon.dll", then your C# program would use this command:

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using easycom;

This way, one would not have to use easycom.WriteLn(); .

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AndLabs

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Posted: 23rd Sep 2005 00:57

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PSS - I am Pietro Gagliardi.

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OSX Using Happy Dude

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Posted: 23rd Sep 2005 00:58

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And you expect Lee to do that ???
Why not convert DBPro to a Mac and Linux while he's at it?

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IanM

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Posted: 23rd Sep 2005 01:13 Edited at: 23rd Sep 2005 01:16

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Quote: "So? C# is C++ made easy, so it is easier to port to C# than, say, Euphoria."

Yep, that's why I said it'd take half the time.

If it's so easy to convert C++ code to C#, then it must be just as easy for *you* to write in C++ in the first place. After all, C# is a simplified version of C++, right?

Quote: "Compile the original code as DLLs and build a C# compiler especially for those dlls, like TGC built the DBPro compiler."

So now they've got to build a new compiler too huh? How many man-years will be required to reproduce the C# compiler? *YOU* haven't even built the compiler you were designing yet, but you expect TGC to do this.

Before you suggest it, TGC can't take the compiler from the Mono project either - that's GPL code, and would mean that TGC would need to ship source code for their version of the compiler on request - once GPL, always GPL.

Quote: "If you build your own C# compiler to build programs for your own .dll framework, there is no need to include .net"

So you also expect them to design and build a new library format too, and just for fun, make it totally incompatible with the official C#?

Please, think it though, huh? Just a little?

[EDIT]
I've just realised nick - You're the one for sarcasm, so why am I having to do your job for you?

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scooby bloke

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Posted: 23rd Sep 2005 12:43

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c# is slower than c++. Not really what you want when making games. It's mainly to do with the automatic memory management / garbage collection etc. You can write much faster code in c++, it just looks more complicated because you have to do everything yourself...

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OSX Using Happy Dude

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Posted: 23rd Sep 2005 13:09 Edited at: 23rd Sep 2005 16:52

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Quote: "I've just realised nick - You're the one for sarcasm, so why am I having to do your job for you?"

Because late at night you want easy reading sarcasm, not the full action version

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AndLabs

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Posted: 23rd Sep 2005 22:05

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Errrr!

Since the DGSDK libraries are written in C++, all they have to do is compile them to DLLs! C# is simplified, but it is 100% object-oriented. I was just throwing an idea around.

If you are still interested, here is a little C# code that you might like to see that implements the library I made.

+ Code Snippet

// If the DLL was called EasyCon

class mainClass
{
   public static void Main()
   {
      EasyCon.Write("Dark");
      EasyCon.WriteLn("BASIC");
      EasyCon.Write(1);
      EasyCon.WriteLn(.13);
      EasyCon.WriteLn();
      EasyCon.Beep();
      EasyCon.WriteErr("Sorry! That was the last version, so: ");
      EasyCon.WriteErr(2);
      EasyCon.WaitKey();
   }
}

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AndLabs

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Posted: 23rd Sep 2005 22:06

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And I don't build compilers, but I plan to. Check my "How To Make a Compiler Easy" thread if you want to help me by giving me a suggestion.

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IanM

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Posted: 24th Sep 2005 00:10

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1. DSDK is 100% not object orientated.

2. .NET DLLs are not standard DLLs, and it would take time to convert the code over to fit the .NET standard. The alternative would be to write a .NET wrapper that would call a DSDK DLL, and that would probably take more time to do it thast way.

3. Shipping DLLs means that anyone can use them. You probably haven't been around long enough to remember, but I wrote an interface library for DBPro plugin writers that allowed you to call the DBPro command functions from your own plugins, and the hardest part was automating the generation of the code, not producing the code.

One last statement, then I'm done with this thread : IT'S NOT GONNA HAPPEN.

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Alexa Too

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Posted: 24th Sep 2005 01:09

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Wow. I step away for a day and all heck breaks loose!

Alexa

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AndLabs

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Posted: 24th Sep 2005 01:27

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OK, I'm cool with that.

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OSX Using Happy Dude

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Posted: 24th Sep 2005 01:51

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Quote: " OK, I'm cool with that."

Good to hear!

Quote: " Wow. I step away for a day and all heck breaks loose!"

You should see what happens when someone makes a spelling mistake...

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Cellbloc Studios

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Posted: 25th Sep 2005 11:34

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All you need for spelling mistakes is to look at just about any posting in the FPSC Forums! It's like I walked into a kindergarten class!

-This...is my boomstick!

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Dark GDK / Is C# a doable language with the SDK?