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Geek Culture / The Q & A session IRC log for September 26th 2005

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APEXnow
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Posted: 27th Sep 2005 00:32
Here is the Q & A session IRC log for 26th September 2005. Please note, some minor use of language was logged also.

Paul.


Home of the Cartography Shop - DarkBASIC Professional map importer

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The Wendigo
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Posted: 27th Sep 2005 00:34
oooh! potty mouths!


Home of DOOP, Strata Works, and Seva. djpeterson83@_!@hotmail.com
Mnemonix
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Posted: 27th Sep 2005 00:41
no, I think he means French

WE SHALL BECOME ALL POWERFUL! CRUSH THE LESSER RACES! CONQUER THE GALAXY! UNIMAGINABLE POWER! UNLIMITED RICE PUDDING ! ! ! ETC. ! ! ! ETC.! ! !
Peter H
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Posted: 27th Sep 2005 00:49
I sure hope ya'll used language...

I don't understand raw brain waves

"We make the worst games in the universe."

DBAlex
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Location: United Kingdom
Posted: 27th Sep 2005 00:51
Well, It was ace!

Just a lot of questions!

Went from around 80 to 130!

But good turn out everyone


AMD 64 3000 + 512mb RAM + 80GB HD + Radeon 9600se 128mb
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JoelJ
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Posted: 27th Sep 2005 00:58
I still think my (poorly worded in the IRC) suggestion for compiling DB code into a dll of some sort would be a good idea

that way, if you have a function that you use a lot (using DBP commands) you can just compile it into a library of some sort (like a DLL) then you just include it like you do other files, and BAM

that would probably make for faster compiling times too

Jimmy
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Posted: 27th Sep 2005 01:11
Just fire up visual studio and you can make all the DLLs you need!

But you are right, poorly worded. If it were me, I would have said, "We make DLLs in DBP ok?"

Jeku
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Posted: 27th Sep 2005 01:17
My, that was a good yarn! I got a good laugh out of dbmad's questions

Megaton Cat
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Posted: 27th Sep 2005 01:30
They didn't answer a single one of my questions while things like "sh*t" and "walrus?" went through.


The future is here, and I can't afford it.
Philip
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Posted: 27th Sep 2005 01:30
I felt the high point of the Q&A was my metaphysical question: "Walrus?"

Indeed. Its a topic hotly debated in our finest academic institutions as we speak.

Cheer if you like bears! Cheer if you like jam sandwiches!
P3.2ghz / 1 gig / GeForce FX 5900 128meg / WinXP home
Megaton Cat
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Posted: 27th Sep 2005 01:34
I hate you.


The future is here, and I can't afford it.
Mnemonix
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Posted: 27th Sep 2005 01:57
No wonder we are producing a nation of idiots


What is the Walrus anyway?

WE SHALL BECOME ALL POWERFUL! CRUSH THE LESSER RACES! CONQUER THE GALAXY! UNIMAGINABLE POWER! UNLIMITED RICE PUDDING ! ! ! ETC. ! ! ! ETC.! ! !
Benjamin
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Posted: 27th Sep 2005 02:06
Its from Alice in Wonderland silly.

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Kohaku
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Posted: 27th Sep 2005 02:23
It's a beatles song.


You are not alone.
Ian T
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Posted: 27th Sep 2005 02:45
It's the color of Tupac's hair.

Blog is death. How? NO idea. But is murder. REVENGE!
TKF15H
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Posted: 27th Sep 2005 03:09
While I read the log, all I could think about was, "Arg, I wish I wasn't stuck in traffic while all this happend"... then suddenly this shows up in the log:
Quote: "[21:31] * TKFI5H (devhat@E1AAF75.4A84A43B.21BDDABB.IP) has joined #darkbasic"

O_O
Well, maybe I did go online without being aware of it. Either that or:
[21:32] * TKFI5H (devhat@E1AAF75.4A84A43B.21BDDABB.IP) has left #darkbasic
[21:32] * [jimmy] (devhat@E1AAF75.4A84A43B.21BDDABB.IP) has joined #darkbasic
JIMMEH!!!!

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Lost in Thought
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Posted: 27th Sep 2005 06:24
Thanks to Joel for asking about the collision system in a more political way than I was going to Can't wait for the new collision solutions.

OSX Using Happy Dude
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Posted: 27th Sep 2005 10:10
Quote: " I felt the high point of the Q&A was my metaphysical question: "Walrus?"

Indeed. Its a topic hotly debated in our finest academic institutions as we speak."

Thought that was carrots.

Come to the third DarkBasic Pro Sci Fi Con - Be there and be square
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Eddie Gordo
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Posted: 27th Sep 2005 10:29
"Walrus?" was the in depth part of the conversation...that or someones how do i move a object...

Who am i...i don't know anymore...its been a long time since ive walked here...
spooky
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Posted: 27th Sep 2005 13:18
Interesting read. Got annoyed when dbmad started with the stupid questions. 5.9 sounds good but once again it sounds like we will get no documentation on the new commands.

5.8 had a few nice new commands like shadows, vertex commands and CSG but only a handful of people are using them. Most people don't even know they exist. CSG commands should be the best thing since sliced bread but I can not even get them to work. Supplied example just crashes. I do like the shadows and vertex commands though.

Hopefully bug week will sort out the few shadow problems and fix the CSG commands. That's all I'm after.

Boo!
APEXnow
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Posted: 27th Sep 2005 13:20 Edited at: 27th Sep 2005 13:21
Quote: ""Walrus?" was the in depth part of the conversation...that or someones how do i move a object..."


ROFL, that was rather funny, I'm still trying to workout how you rotate the thing!

Paul.


Home of the Cartography Shop - DarkBASIC Professional map importer
OSX Using Happy Dude
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Posted: 27th Sep 2005 14:02
Shame intsect object wont be upgrade - its rather limited at the moment...

Come to the third DarkBasic Pro Sci Fi Con - Be there and be square
Blog:http://spaces.msn.com/members/BouncyBrick/
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Hawkeye
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Posted: 27th Sep 2005 14:28
Ahhh, shame I had to leave at the last second, I was quite looking foreward to this...

Benjamin
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Posted: 27th Sep 2005 14:54
Shame I fell asleep just before it started. Although with all the stupid questions it would have got annoying anyway. I could have sworn someone said the questions are filtered..

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APEXnow
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Posted: 27th Sep 2005 15:05
They were supposed to be filtered, but poor Mnemonix was most likely overwhelmed by the shear number of them all at once. Also, I think for future events, the Q&A server should be started much earlier so that questions can be added before hand. This way, all the crap ones can be binned way before the session begins.

Paul.


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Peter H
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Posted: 27th Sep 2005 16:18 Edited at: 27th Sep 2005 16:18
Guys, i have a confession to make...

...

...

I tried to use 'Make Object Potatoe'



"We make the worst games in the universe."

soapyfish
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Posted: 27th Sep 2005 16:24
Quote: "'Make Object Potatoe'"


n00b, everyone knows it's 'Make Object Radish.

*tries to think of witty and original signature*
*fails*
JoelJ
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Posted: 27th Sep 2005 18:16 Edited at: 27th Sep 2005 18:18
Quote: "everyone knows it's 'Make Object Radish."

n00b! because everyone here knows that comments like that, just...aren't...funny

I believe the best questions were, and I quote:
Quote: "[22:04] <Pris> [jimmy] asks: Do you prefer the short or long variety of trousers?"

and this one was a classic:
Quote: "[22:14] <Pris> [jimmy] asks: Rich: The forums are my life and when it doesn't have the same features as the 231 other forums in my favorites I visit regularly, my life turns to udder (moo) chaos. Please add features, so then, and only then, will I drop the knife that is perched precariously close to my third nipple."

the best part was, jim wasnt joking, that was a bloody mess...

or when Rich owned me:
Quote: "[22:07] <Pris> Joel asks: rich: how about a feature for the forums that notifys you WHY and WHEN and about HOW LONG you are slapped?
[22:07] <[TGC]Rich> Joel: how about just playing nice and NOT getting slapped?"

I gave a hearty chuckle at that one.

and I think that this Q&A was quite successful, for 2 reasons:
Quote: "[21:54] <LeeBamber> Yes the new U5.9 contains a very nice set of collision solutions you can use. It worked quite well for FPSC "

and
Quote: "[21:11] <LeeBamber> ODE will be released at the same time as U5.9 upgrade. And it will be free "

and thus my projects were postponed whilst I wait for my physics and collision

Quote: "Just fire up visual studio and you can make all the DLLs you need!"

yeah, I know that, but you can't use DBP code in those DLLs. I want to use DBP CODE IN MY DLLS!!


Quote: "Well, maybe I did go online without being aware of it. Either that or:
[21:32] * TKFI5H (devhat@E1AAF75.4A84A43B.21BDDABB.IP) has left #darkbasic
[21:32] * [jimmy] (devhat@E1AAF75.4A84A43B.21BDDABB.IP) has joined #darkbasic
JIMMEH!!!! "

that's the server the java client runs on....

Jimmy
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Posted: 27th Sep 2005 19:36
Quote: "Quote: "Well, maybe I did go online without being aware of it. Either that or:
[21:32] * TKFI5H (devhat@E1AAF75.4A84A43B.21BDDABB.IP) has left #darkbasic
[21:32] * [jimmy] (devhat@E1AAF75.4A84A43B.21BDDABB.IP) has joined #darkbasic
JIMMEH!!!! "
that's the server the java client runs on...."


Yeah! I was not teh FEESH. I have never been teh FEESH before!

RegenProZ
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Posted: 27th Sep 2005 19:47
It was a good nite, most questions were great only a few, I woun't mention who were a bit, just a bit noobish!

I have learnt a lot from the questions and can't wait for future updates.

Thnx

David T
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Posted: 27th Sep 2005 19:58
Quote: "Guys, i have a confession to make...

...

...

I tried to use 'Make Object Potatoe' "



Same

"A book. If u know something why cant u make a kool game or prog.
come on now. A book. I hate books. book is stupid. I know that I need codes but I dont know the codes"
Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 27th Sep 2005 20:07
I had no voice in there..............Anyone get any DBP => Mac questions in, I know it would require difficulties, but I'm just wanting to know if they will ever decide to do it

APEXnow
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Posted: 27th Sep 2005 20:43 Edited at: 27th Sep 2005 20:59
Quote: "yeah, I know that, but you can't use DBP code in those DLLs. I want to use DBP CODE IN MY DLLS!!"


I have to step in here. Although this is not the correct thread to go into great detail on this matter, I can assure you that any function can be called from Visual Studio in your C/C++ applications without too much trouble.

First of all, in order to know which function(s) you are going to use, you must obtain their mangled names, either by using a Resource DLL hacker, or by using the DUMPBIN tool that comes with Visual Studio to produce an export list for the relavent DBPro DLLs.

Now your next task is to determine what the function arguments and return type is. Again, using a tool accompanied with Visual Studio, is called UNDNAME.EXE using the -f option. Passing in the mangled name of the function, this will tell you exactly how the function prototype has been declared in the DBP DLL.

Right, you now have the name(s) of the function(s) and the argument types. Now in your C/C++ source code, you need to declare a function pointer, based on the argument arrangement of the function. For this example, we'll use MAKE OBJECT CUBE. Now using DUMPBIN /EXPORTS DBProBasic3DDebug.dll, we determine that the mangled name for this function, is '?MakeCube@@YAXHM@Z'.

Now using UNDNAME -f ?MakeCube@@YAXHM@Z gives us void __cdecl MakeCube(int,float)

So, we now declare our function pointer type to be used to hold the address of our function:

typedef void (*FN_MAKEOBJECTCUBE)( int, float );

This declares a new function pointer type that we can later use to assign an address, in this case, the address of the DLL function in DBProBasic3DDebug.dll. With respect to other functions that you wish to call, you would declare separate typedefs with their own unique name for each of the functions you plan to use in your code.

Now in our main code, i.e. your DLL function that's called from DBPro application, you would declare a variable of type FN_MAKEOBJECTCUBE:

int CalledFromDBProSource( void )
{
HINSTANCE hdll;
FN_MAKEOBJECTCUBE pfnFunc;

// First load into memory, the DBPro 3D DLL
hdll = LoadLibrary( "DBProBasic3DDebug.dll" );
if( !hdll ) return 0; // Error

pfnFunc = (FN_MAKEOBJECTCUBE)GetProcAddress( hdll, "?MakeCube@@YAXHM@Z" );
if( !pfnFunc ) return 0; // Error

// Now call the Make Object cube function
(*pfnFunc)( 1, 1000 );

return 1;
}


Now technically, you would have this function inside a DLL that is used as a TCP for DBPro. You would need to correctly define the string table in order to allow your above function to be called from your DBPro source code. This is just a basic example of how it is done.

Lastly, and this is the most important rule. If you plan to use a DLL such as the DBProBasic3DDebug.dll from your C/C++ plugin/dll or whatever, it has to be compiled into your DBPro EXE. This is normally done for you if your DBPro program uses any of the functions exported from these DLLs.

I normally force inclusion of such DLLs by placing these lines of code at the end of your main DBPro application's main.dba file.

They don't actually get called, but it forces the DBP compiler to include those DLLs that your plugin will eventually use to call functions directly. If you fail to include the DBP main DLLs that your plugin will call, you will experience memory exception errors.



There are other useful things I know. Including how to get DBPro to call your ReceiveCoreDataPtr function if it has been compiled under the GNU GCC compiler, such as Dev-C++ or MinGW. But this is a long long story, for another time.

Paul.


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David T
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Posted: 27th Sep 2005 20:51
Alternatively I think you can use g_pGlob and omit the LoadLibrary:



I'm not sure on the g_Basic3D bit because I'm not at my dev machine right now. Something like that anyway.

"A book. If u know something why cant u make a kool game or prog.
come on now. A book. I hate books. book is stupid. I know that I need codes but I dont know the codes"
APEXnow
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Posted: 27th Sep 2005 20:54
You are correct, but I wasn't gonna go into too much detail. And if you've got the TPC SDK, this job is also made alot easier.

But, suffice to say, the general theory is there.

Paul.


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JoelJ
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Posted: 27th Sep 2005 20:58 Edited at: 27th Sep 2005 20:59
Quote: "I had no voice in there..............Anyone get any DBP => Mac questions in, I know it would require difficulties, but I'm just wanting to know if they will ever decide to do it "

I did, and I was mocked (not to mac specifically, but to OGL, which would be the major step to a mac port)
Quote: "21:47] <Pris> Joel asks: Why don't you find someone to make a OpenGL port? I'm sure there a lots of people who really wouldn't mind doing it for really cheep
[21:47] * Mnemonix slaps Joel around a bit with a large trout
[21:47] <LeeBamber> The logistics of making a new product is not always simple!
[21:47] <[TGC]Rich> would it really make a difference though? from a sales point of view. It's not that simple to do.
[21:47] <Mnemonix> how can they expect to support both of them
[21:47] <LeeBamber> !nextq"

I honestly didn't expect more than that, but, it was worth a shot eh?

@APEXnow: thanks shame we cant use .net dlls tho... then that would make C# teh bestorz
"And if you've got the TPC SDK"
what's that?

David T
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Posted: 27th Sep 2005 21:05
Quote: "shame we cant use .net dlls tho... then that would make C# teh bestorz"


Indeed.

"A book. If u know something why cant u make a kool game or prog.
come on now. A book. I hate books. book is stupid. I know that I need codes but I dont know the codes"
APEXnow
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Posted: 27th Sep 2005 21:20
Quote: "@APEXnow: thanks shame we cant use .net dlls tho... then that would make C# teh bestorz
"And if you've got the TPC SDK"
what's that?"


http://www.thegamecreators.com/data/newsletter/newsletter_issue_24.html

Paul.


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Lost in Thought
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Posted: 27th Sep 2005 23:13
Quote: "21:47] <Pris> Joel asks: Why don't you find someone to make a OpenGL port? I'm sure there a lots of people who really wouldn't mind doing it for really cheep
[21:47] * Mnemonix slaps Joel around a bit with a large trout
[21:47] <LeeBamber> The logistics of making a new product is not always simple!
[21:47] <[TGC]Rich> would it really make a difference though? from a sales point of view. It's not that simple to do.
[21:47] <Mnemonix> how can they expect to support both of them
[21:47] <LeeBamber> !nextq"

From the above quote...
Quote: "[21:47] <Mnemonix> how can they expect to support both of them"


NGC is supporting DirectX and OGL in their new programming languages. Assuming they ever finish them

soapyfish
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Posted: 27th Sep 2005 23:23
Quote: "n00b! because everyone here knows that comments like that, just...aren't...funny"


Um...but...well...I.. because









Leave me alone

*tries to think of witty and original signature*
*fails*
Kohaku
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Posted: 28th Sep 2005 00:05
You're not alone.


You are not alone.
OSX Using Happy Dude
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Posted: 28th Sep 2005 09:26
I believe it would be rather against the T&C if you use Apex's way (because the DLL's need to be included with the executable).

Come to the third DarkBasic Pro Sci Fi Con - Be there and be square
Blog:http://spaces.msn.com/members/BouncyBrick/
Web Site:http://www.nicholaskingsley.co.uk
APEXnow
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Posted: 28th Sep 2005 13:22
No they don't. They are automatically compiled into your EXE anyway.


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OSX Using Happy Dude
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Posted: 28th Sep 2005 15:05 Edited at: 28th Sep 2005 15:12
That will only work if you include the DarkSDK header - LoadLibrary loads a DLL at run-time

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empty
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Posted: 28th Sep 2005 15:10
Load them from memory.
But true, the code Apex posted requires the DLLs to be on the HDD somewhere.


Play Nice! Play Basic! Version 1.088
David T
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Posted: 28th Sep 2005 18:20
I asked Mike J and he gave me Apex's way, but using g_pGlob instead of LoadLibrary. That must be okay

"A book. If u know something why cant u make a kool game or prog.
come on now. A book. I hate books. book is stupid. I know that I need codes but I dont know the codes"
APEXnow
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Posted: 28th Sep 2005 18:54
This needs to be cleared up here, but LoadLibrary will still work, whether you use the g_pGlob or HINSTANCE handle method because the same DLL resides in memory. When a DBP executable is compiled, the compiler builds a dependency list of DLLs which are then compressed into the EXE. When you run your EXE, the DLLs are temporarily extracted and autoloaded before any of your EXE code is executed. Hence when LoadLibrary is called, it uses the already shared library that was extracted and loaded into memory. Hence both mthods work.

Ideally, it is safer to use the g_pGlob method because this actually holds the DLL handles of the preloaded DLLs. Using these handles can be passed into GetProcAddress respectively. Either way, what ever method you use, it still allows you to call any of the DBP functions from within your C/C++ DLL plugin/code.

Paul.


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Raven
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Posted: 28th Sep 2005 23:21
That's the way you use for TPC, becuase the load library requires the library address link. You cannot compile the libraries internally like you do with Dark GDK, because then your not accessing libraries but it's extended code.

Hopefully that clear up that both of you seem to be talking about doing different things.

David T
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Posted: 29th Sep 2005 00:19
I miss RobK's interface

Still, I suppose you get used to the way using function reference pointer thingys.

"A book. If u know something why cant u make a kool game or prog.
come on now. A book. I hate books. book is stupid. I know that I need codes but I dont know the codes"
OSX Using Happy Dude
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Posted: 29th Sep 2005 00:32
Its Ian's...

Come to the third DarkBasic Pro Sci Fi Con - Be there and be square
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