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hey guys,

i just want to clear out the Save Game command. now, nobody should ask why save game is not working. The save game command exist but it was for a beta version of FPSC, and was thrashed in another later beta version of FPSC because of time issues. the only way is to modify it in DBpro when the source will be released or in a future version *cough* V2 *cough*

Fine then TGC can do it for us, for free ofcourse...


Mr Love

dont be so sure, if too much more new things are in this version, it should be not free.

It should be free because something like that should of already been implemented before it's release!

It's like selling a new car to somebody and then the buyer finds out that the car doesn't have a transmission to make the car actually go! Now dont you think that once the customer finds out that there isn't no transmission in the car to make it go that he/she wouldn't be a little upset?!?!!?? I guarantee you that they would be!

And no matter how tight the deadline was on the FPS Creator project. It shouldn't of been released until' after all things that was suppse to be in there where working like they should of been! Like I said above with the car thing! You wont goto a car-lot where Brand new cars are, And find New cars that are incomplete, But yet they continue to sell them anyways! You wont find no product that is mass-produced by any manufacture that will sell thier products incomplete because they know that they would have alot of dis-satisfied customers. And that would give them a bad name & hurt thier business. But Im' just pointing out simple truths here! So dont get flamed over this after reading this here. Because Im' just pointing out simple truths is all in todays world & markets.


Also Microsoft has the habit of releasing new versions of windows that are full of bugs without throughly testing thier products first before relasing it! Then microsoft finally makes the newer versions of windows stable after about 300 to 900 fix's & patchs to thier windows software.. Basically!!! They release until the people the beta version of windows. Then they make windows a final version after all the fix's & patchs to stamp out all of thier software bugs sevral months later... A known FACT of microsoft windows OS's...

Dr. Who - They had a set deadline that could not be moved. It is also not as if the program is "incomplete" in any way, just that one of the features is not implemented. FPS Creator works and is complete by all means. Just because a specific feature a lot of people want is not implemented, does not mean that customers will form a hate group for TGC. Another thing, you would be suprised how few Drag 'N' Drop programs have no save feature. Sure, the fact that this is a full scale program for FPSs, a genre where savegame is necessary, does not mean that TGC is going to go bankrupt.

Just my opinion

You say "feature" in FPSC, But actually though, It is part of the program and thus makes it incomplete! And I would bet money that there will be alot of concerns about this from other customers! And I never said that TGC would go bankrupt. I simply gave an example how things like this could have an impact on business because of possible false advertising in the manule of the product where they will see clearly that there is documented two commands that say SAVEGAME=X and LOADGAME=X. If these commands wasn't going to be included into the final release of V1, Then dont you think that the manule should of been revised to exclude thoes commands out of the manule so others that buy this product wont think that they are in there? If this was thought about & done before the final master CD was sent to the production facilities for reproduction into the retail market place. This would of settled this issue very clearly!! But the way it is now, There will be customer complaints regarding this, And alot of persistance towards TGC to fix this problem for all these future customers as well as the existing ones too! Just my opinion though!

Firstly, a part of the program is a feature. Adding entities is part of the program. Is that a feature? Yes. *Almost* total control through scripting is part of the program. Is that a feature? Yes. Saving/loading games is not part of the program. If it was, would that be a feature? Yes. Simple as that. A 'part of the program' is a feature when it is something not necessary for the game engine to run.

Yes, it does have SAVEGAME=X and LOADGAME=X in the manual. But an eighth of an inch on a page is hadly 'false advertising'. As the for the remark:

You wouldn't buy the product already having read a manual that is only available (easily) through buying the program. It is possible, through the demo, but I hardly believe people are going to scower through the commands before they buy the product.

It's easily possible that, because of the pressure of the closing deadline, Lee completely forgot that he had left the commands in the manual before he decided to remove the commands. Also, not every person who buys FPSC is going to complain about two commands being accidentely left in the manual, or even that they will get a lot of complaints. TGC never openly advertised that FPSC was possible of savegame, and therefore it is not a major issue.

Even if they do get complaints, the fact is that it will be resolved soon enough. I can guarrentee that someone will create a savegame feature with the DBP source code being released so soon, or TGC themselves will release it in another update. I can almost guarentee that fact, since the only reason the commands are not there was because of the unshiftable deadline, which has now past.

Oh, and when I said about TGC not going bankrupt, it was not implied literally.

Once again, just my insight .

Yeah, by the time were all done messing around and testing features and finally getting confident enough to actually start a real project with this thing, the issue will be solved.

@jiffy

Dude, I respect your opinion, But I do not agree with you on it!



I dont agree with you! Your looking at it as not interfering with the game engine. Im' looking at it as a product in whole! There is quite a difference. All my replies to this thread have been based soly on the product in general!!
Your picking apart the features away from the game engine itself, And making it out like the game engine itself is the whole product here when it isn't!!! The features you are talking about here are also part of the product! And thus makes it all a whole program. And if any part of this program is not functioning like it should be, Or.. Not there, (Incomplete!) And thus it is documented that there is this feature in the program when it isn't there makes it Incomplete!!! Simple as that...
Remember, Your looking at it as specific parts of the main program code. Most customers are not going to look at it like that. They are going to look at this as an entire product! And when the product doesn't do what it is documented to do, Then they too will call this product incomplete also.



Yes it is false advertising if the product is being sold in anyway to a potential customer and they later on read in the manule that SAVEGAME=X & LOADGAME=X doesn't WORK when it's documented in thier manule. That's why I said before:



It only would of took someone a few moments to have modified the manule to exclude that text from the manule and thus prevent false advertising! simple as that.



This is true! However though, While all the beta-testing was going on with 'V1' and all... There was still plenty of time to have removed thoes commands from the manule before the master CD was created and sent on its way for reproduction. That's my point here!



That could be true as well, But a product going to be released onto the retail market place should of had more extensive looking at before finally releasing it for reproduction.



No! Probably not everyone, But the serious game markers that want to create a full-featured game will take the extra time to go through the manule. And when they find these commands there & try them out and find them non-functioning. There will be complaints from them though!



No they never openly advertised that FPSC was possible of SAVEGAME & LOADGAME, But it is still written in the product's manule and thus still makes it false advertising still! And YES it is a MAJOR ISSUE!!! Do some research here on the forums and you'll find alot of threads complaining about this! So yes it is a major issue here!
How many games in general do you know that doesn't have a savegame/loadgame system in them? You wont find to many games out there that doesnt have them! And if you know of any that doesn't have a save/load game system in them... Please post some links here so I may check them out!



I do agree with that! Because TGC & many others on here know how important it is to have the functionality & ability to save/load your games. That's why I couldn't understand why this feature
as important as it is with games like this... why it wasn't finsihed before the master CD was created. I understand what you said about the time issues & deadlines.. I just think that this should of been worked in somehow?!



ok, That's cool!


@Conjured Entertainment



Well... It takes customer complaints to arise so the company can
take care of the current "Issue" and thus resolve the problem in question. And yes complaints does help! Because it shows to the company that is making the product that they have a issue that needs attention to make the product better. Why do you think they have surveys they give to customers then? This is for collecting valuable data that helps them better thier products for thier customers. So hearing the thoughts of the customer is very important to most companies now a days to continue thier growth & prosperity for thier business!



That's what I was stating above in my past replies to this thread.
They are there, But they are not functioning!



But who wants to play your finished game and actually get into it without the possibility of saving thier progress that they have made in the game? That would be like a level editor or a modeler program without a save/load function to allow the user to load thier current work back into the level editor or modeler program for further work on thier project! I don't know of anybody that would put in endless hours on a level editor or modeling program to create a complex looking level for a game or whatever, Or a modeling program where a person is making a very detailed model for whatever. And not have the option to be able to save & load thier work!! In fact... If there where such level editors or modeling programs out there like that... I believe they would fall under the title of once more ----> "Incomplete!!!" programs.



That was an example I made dude!



No, It's stating simple facts! Go read it again.



Like finding a BUG in the software? I guess this could be considered something like that in a way?!



It is a big deal to alot of people on here if you would go and research the issue on these forums here. I believe you will find alot of threads complaining about this here!



That it will, After enough complaints about it... It surely will indeed!

And guys, All of you. I do respect & appreciate your opinions as fellow developers of the same trade.

Dr. Who - In your first remark about looking at the program as a whole, the fact remains it is not part of the program. I never made it out that 'the game engine is the product', I merely said that if a part of the program does not need to be there for the game engine to run, it is not necessary and therefore a feature, a minor part of the program. I agree with you that if a part of the program is not functioning (and there), it is incomplete. However, if a part of the program is not there at all, then it is not incomplete. Also, while the savegame is documented, it is only on part of a single page in the whole manual. I am not looking at the program as 'code'. I am simply stating that the program is hardly 'incomplete' if the manual states in 9 words of the whole manual that you can save game. 9 words (I didn't check that it was actually 9 words, it could be less). I stand by the fact that, since the manual only states these commands once, it is not such an issue to claim the program as 'incomplete'. 'False advertising' is defined as advertising something that is absent to encourage sale *before* sale. It may be bad for TGC to have included it, it may be wrong. But it is not 'False advertising'.

You would be suprised how many drag 'n' drop games are absent of savegame. FPSC is certainly not the best choice for a developer to create a game for commerciality. FPSC is aimed at people who want to create games for fun. A lot of these programs are absent of a save feature.

I agree with some of your comments. But I do not agree with 'couldn't someone have added it in!?'. This would be very hard. Implementing a savegame feature that is flexible enough to always work is hard. Not as simple as making saving possible for a single game in DarkBASIC.

That is all I have to say. I didn't get a chance to read your thoughts on Conjured Entertainment's comments, but those thoughts are up to him to reply to.

Well like I said before jiffy, I respect your opinion here. But I do not agree with you on somethings you have stated! I still believe that it is false advertising. And I still believe that the product is incomplete do to the given reasons I stated in my previous posts. And I still believe that there was ample time to have developed & implemented the SAVEGAME & LOADGAME functions into the final product before the master CD was finalized for production into the retail market place. But also that is all I have to comment on this subject as well! I respect yours & everybody else's opinions here, And i also expect the same in return. With that, Happy game making to you & everybody...

I agree with Dr Who here. I have heard that Jiffy and Skalex are going to sell savegame-patches that have been made in DBP!
If this is true I will be really angry! If this is not true, I am happy for You guys. But still, I think it is very strange that a few people that own a copy of FPSC DONT want Save-Support!??
If people from TGC dont recommend their engine for making commercial games then maybe We shourld listen to them!
If I read in a manual that Loadgame and Savegame is in the program shourldnt We trust that kind of information? I Myself is very tierd of waiting and listen to emty promises. I am starting to think that TGC is right! "Have fun and make games for Your friends" That is not exactly what I want to do! Exept for having fun. I like to work with FPSC, but I think I wourld like CSP or any other engine just as mutch. A FPS game without Load/Save is no fun, Because Saving a game is a part of the game itself! You have to be smart and not save at the wrong places, and if You do save at the "right" places You will take benefit for that later in the game. I have played FPS sence the absolut first ones came out on the AMIGA and with titles like Midwinter, Beverly Hills Cop and wolfenstein to the latest games like halflife 2, DF XTREME, Battlefield 2, AREA 51 and many others, so I have learned what a good game shall have. I wourld never play a game without savegame because without it You know from the beginning that You cant play this game to the end. (Well if You dont have 999 lives or the game is very easy). I know that TGC is a serious company and they will finish what they started. SAVEGAME!


Mr Love

eh, sorry, no. i am making a big pack with JTBullet. It dosent include savegames and Jiffy is not in the devlopment (instead he wants)

Okay... I am PISSED...

First off, Dr. Who, what is your point?

Second off, I may have never picked up a DBP program, but I know enough to be able to program a save game routine. If any SOB (Son or Bride) wishes to start patching FPSC for money, be MY GUEST. I will learn, I will COUNTER, YOU WILL FAIL. Just because you own DBP doesn't make you a omni-potent god. And you shouldn't act like one just because a lot of people here don't understand programming.

@Merranvo



Can't you read? You've coded before and yet you can't understand simple english? Im' not going to get into a lengthy debait with you again Merranvo!!!

And im' not going to re-type everything stated above to prove my point to you! I've written my opinions very clearly, And if you can't understand them, then your Sh*t out of luck then!!

So go ahead and type to your hearts desire here, Because I have said all Im' going to say concerning this thread & situation with FPSC!



Fine!!! Then make one then when the source to FPSC is released!
And that's not the point anyways!! Go read the entire thread again until' you finally understand it right!



And they probably will too! So why even say this?



AND YOU MAKE NO SENSE EITHER! What was that phrase about?!?



Where do you get off telling me this kind of crap, I never even said that?!? And I most certainly dont act like that either!

All your trying to do now is just piss me off! And im' not even going to waste my time with you if that's what your trying to do!
I respectfully voiced my opinions here which I have just as much right to do as the next user on here does! And you should respect others opinions to instead of coming off like you just did trying to piss others off! Anyways... Im' done here with voicing my opinions on this thread. If you don't like my opinions merranvo, That is just fine as you have a perfect right not to! But at least be respectful towards others on here, And thier OPINIONS as well!! Everybody here has a right to speak thier on opinions. So quit trying to piss others off by coming off like you just did, And RESPECT IT!!!!

To everyone else on here & TGC... I apologise for any outburst here, But I think that merranvo was out of order here. And I just dont have much tolerance for such disrespect! But like I said though, Everybody on here has a right to voice thier opinions in a respectful manner. But my thoughts on this is that merranvo's outburts here was very disrespectful towards me & the others on here!

I now rest my case!!!

ohh... sorry Dr. Who... it was Miss Directed... I was yelling at the future DB Prog'rs that would rip off the FPSC'rs, I was asking you what you were saying, I couldn't see a general point.

I just get mad when people do nothing, sell it, and get these little kids to buy it because they see it as the greatest achievement ever. But they don't say that they did nothing. I recently found a Prog'r who had merely used a FREE utility that you can get off the net, tied it in with a menu (which I have no objection to) and said to unknowing children "UNBREAKABLE ENCRYPTION!!!, BUY NOW" If he had done any REAL work on it, besides which would take only a 30min(file IO based on input given). His GUI was a bit impressive, but in the end run, he decide to make it seem like something it isn't, and make it seem more tedious then is.

If some one REALLY spends REAL time on somthing, perfects it, adds more to it, makes it much more then a simple menu. THEN is it really a sellable Item. But if you "kiddie script" it all, and only slop it together, it is not sellable, you have done NOTHING.

I ask you to DO something, don't add save commands... add 20 other things. People will buy, but you are only scamming them because you know how to do something. Unless you sell at a resonable price.

Oh MAN!!!!

Then I apologise GREATLY to you Merranvo!

From what I understood by reading it, I thought you directed this towards me!! I apologise for all that then.

But yeah, I can see your point now! And I do agree with you on it.
You have my back!

Well, sorry then Skalex!
I really think it is time for TGC to tell the real reason why We wont have "SAVEGAME" in FPSC....

Mr Love

Mr. Love - I have no idea where you heard that. I don't even own DBP (I only own DBC ). I agree that FPSs do need save fuctionality, I am just backing up TGC. It doesn't mean I don't want savegame. And I don't plan on making a savegame-patch. I was hoping someone would do that for me .

This is a long standing request issue that crops up continually. For those that wish to see a save/load option - if you have one you can include it to your game - if dont dont have an option then you cant - choice in all things gamemaking is a good thing.

As to the whys and why nots - I have tried to say many times and repeat here that TGC are aware of users concerns in this area - such a feature has also been asked for to be considered for introduction to FPSC following V1 release by myself and entered into the Beta forum task list - its there and presumably will take its place in the queue for consideration for a future release.

So debate here although welcome is just reiterating what TGC are already well aware of. Now in the final analysis whether or not TGC will see a "Deafult" load/save feature as worthy of inclusion to FPSC I cannot say as I am not TGC but certainly I presume that as reasonable people they would give it due consideration and make a decision which is beneficial to the product - whatever that might be in their opinion.

The only persons who can put users minds at rest over this are TGC officials notwithstanding anyone else actuallly successfully creating a method of achieving such functionality external to the developers themselves albeit that doing so I doubt will be such an easy task as some might suggest.

Perhaps not a committment but a general comment from TGC regarding this issue might be helpful.

Squeaky wheel gets the grease.

Squeak, squeak!

IMHO I think SAVE/LOAD should be a standard part of any FPS game. So it kind of annoyed me when TGC's response to this was that we could dive into the source and add it ourselves.

I still think we can all agree that FPSC is awesome! And I thank the TGC team for a job well done!!!

One solution is to have a password function for each level. Doom on the Playstation used this. Not sure how it worked but after power off and then returning to game, keying in mix of characters and numbers took you to the level you reached with all weapons, ammo and health set to their current state. If passwords are given out for commercial games I am sure not many real gamers would use them. Like me they would like a challange and not get much pleasure out of using cheats. This was never a problem for Doom.

Yes, FPSC is awesome but You can not sell games without Savegame. (But I am pretty sure it will come soon or less.)

Agreed! I added the "awesome" comment just to say that I'm otherwise pleased with the product.


Right! And I'm not at a point where I need it yet anyway. But I'm hoping it will be there when I'm ready.