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Newcomers DBPro Corner / Tut questions

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Darth Vader
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Posted: 29th Sep 2005 07:43
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Hi i am getting tutorials from a certain source and would very much like to help any newbie that comes here and does'nt know what to do.
I was and still am a little until i found some very good help on the forum.

Anyway my tutorials are not exactly ready to be posted but they will be soon. One other thing thats stopping me from posting is how do i make my tutorials post a "Sticky Thread" so it can stay at the top without getting bumped down the list?

Thank You and don't despair
Help is on the Way!!

You Don't know the power of the Dark Side!!
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master programmer
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Posted: 29th Sep 2005 08:10
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I think only mods can do that...

I like Darth Vader....go DV!

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Darth Vader
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Posted: 29th Sep 2005 08:45
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Thank you very much

I am trying to present my tut in an actual program so wish me luck!
and thanks again

You Don't know the power of the Dark Side!!
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TDK
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Posted: 29th Sep 2005 17:09
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May I offer a word of warning?

Tutorials are not something a newcomer should be doing unless they have a VERY flame resistant coat to put on.

Tutorials have to be written by someone who knows what they are talking about. Re-gurgitating information from other tutorials isn't the way to go. If you need other tutorials to give you the information to write your own tutorial, then you don't really know what you are doing yet and should not be writing a tutorial.

Another thing that is required to write tutorials is EXPERIENCE with the subject - in this case DB. If you don't have it, it will show in your tutorial and believe me you'll get hammered for it!

You also need a good writing style, have an understanding of good grammar and be able to spell properly - or at least use a spell checker on your tutorial before posting it.

The only reason I'm making these points is that you are not the first newcomer to the forums to try writing tutorials not long after joining the forums. Most have failed miserably and paid the price in flames!

I don't know about your programming experience. All I do know is that on the same day you posted this, you were also asking how to load a text file on the DBP board, which sadly doesn't instill me with confidence that you yet have the understanding of the language that you need to write a tutorial.

A tutorial is not just a list of the commands in the tutorial's topic with a line of description pulled straight from the help files - and that has been done.

If you have an associated program to go with your tutorial, you should explain why your program does what it does and how the commands work. Don't just leave the reader to figure out what your code does - tell them! Also mention problems that can be encountered while using them and offer ways around it.

The layout of your program also needs to be able to withstand scrutiny. Showing newbies bad programming practices cannot be condoned and you will be jumped on for it. This sort of thing only comes with months and years of experience...

Tutorials are more likely to be read by other newbies and they will generally take what you write as gospel - after all, you have written a tutorial so you must know what you are talking about right?

If it's bad information, then you are doing more harm than good.

The experienced programmers will quite rightly be VERY critical of you for this, so please tread carefully... and if you do go ahead with a tutorial anyway, good luck!

TDK_Man

A New Alternative IDE For DB Classic!
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BatVink
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Posted: 29th Sep 2005 19:14
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TDK is right. I saw this thread earlier and almost said the same thing, but left it. Now I can hide behind TDK and just nod in agreement

You'd be better reading TDK's tutorials, as well as others around here (MikeS' curved basic tutorials for example) and spending your own time improving your programming.

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Deep Thought 42
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Posted: 29th Sep 2005 23:21
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Well why don't you post a link to this "certain source" and we'll evaluate it ourselves. Then the mods will see if it is worthy of being a sticky.

"Winners never quit and quitters never win. But those who never win and never quit are idiots."
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Grog Grueslayer
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Posted: 30th Sep 2005 10:34
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I think that if a person doesn't say yes to the following they're still called a newbie themselves... and therefore is not qualified to help other newbies with a tutorial.

1. Have you experimented with every command in Darkbasic?

2. Do you indent your code?

3. Do you use REM statements to explain key parts of your code?

4. Do you keep away from GOTO?

The 4th one is inspired by TDK. Anybody else want to add any?
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BatVink
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Posted: 30th Sep 2005 12:50
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Yes, one more very important one...

Are you able to enter into the GOTO / GOSUB / FUNCTION debate and stand your ground.

If you don't know what the debate is, don't even ask!

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Peter H
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Posted: 3rd Oct 2005 00:38 Edited at: 3rd Oct 2005 00:40
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Quote: "Are you able to enter into the GOTO / GOSUB / FUNCTION debate and stand your ground.
"

lol.

i'll sum gotos up for you...

Gotos: usually lead to unstructured programming*

*programming in which your code is not divided into neat chunks that have one (and only one) entrance and one (and only one) exit.

this is NOT structured programming
(well, maybe it is..i made it on the fly and it might actually be structured..but i doubt it )

not only is it hard for other programmers to understand your code but it gets hard for you to understand it!

i said yes to all of those questions...except for teh comments...i struggle with comments lol...
(though i've realized lately how much i need them because i've been going back and adding to the Dungeon game...(making Dungeon 2.0) and it can be very hard to understand at times...making me wish i had commented...so i'm forcing myself to comment everything that i write from now on (except endifs and endfunctions and ends in general )

"We make the worst games in the universe."

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RUCCUS
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Posted: 3rd Oct 2005 06:18 Edited at: 3rd Oct 2005 06:20
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1. I have'nt used all of the commands in Darkbasic yet.
2. I almost never indent my code.
3. I never use REM statements, I use the ` opperator, much cleaner
4. I only stay away from GOTO because I've never had a use for it

...So basically no to all of those pretty much, and I'm not a newbie. Atleast Im prety sure I'm not, I hope not because I've been writing that tutorial on FPSs o.O . Might want to reconcider that der list of urs yungin.

5. Oh and functions own so there.


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Darth Vader
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Posted: 3rd Oct 2005 08:29
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You all talk about flaming newbies well you just flamed me
i do know how to program so dont tell me i am Inexperienced.
I am going on with my tutorial program wether you like it or not.
Oh and my the way the thread i posted was to help me. Every one knows even a master can learn new tricks!!!



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RUCCUS
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Posted: 3rd Oct 2005 15:05
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If you thought that was flaming get ready for what you'll get when you release this.

Your signature has been erased by a mod because it's larger than 600x120...
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Peter H
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Posted: 3rd Oct 2005 20:34 Edited at: 3rd Oct 2005 20:35
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Quote: "You all talk about flaming newbies well you just flamed me "

so that makes you a newb...(from your very own words)

if you are a newb then there is no way you should try to teach other newbs...

that's like a blind man leading a deaf man.

"We make the worst games in the universe."

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Darth Vader
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Posted: 4th Oct 2005 04:14
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Look i dont give up easily.
Just because a couple of stuck up people are giving me
Quote: "May I offer a word of warning?"

For all you guys know i could be studing programing in a
university!!

Thread closed!

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TDK
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Posted: 4th Oct 2005 05:49 Edited at: 4th Oct 2005 05:54
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Quote: "Just because a couple of stuck up people are giving me
Quote: "May I offer a word of warning?""


OK, I've been called lots of things, but never 'stuck up'! Lol.

What you are calling stuck up is me breaking it to you gently that you need to be careful when writing tutorials as they have to be spot on.

I could have said:

Don't be such a prat! You don't know enough about DB to write a tutorial yet.

But I didn't, did I? Even though it was probably true...

I politely explained that the question you posted on the same day as you announced that you were going to write a tutorial suggested that you were a newbie. I then gave you some tips on writing a tutorial, for which I get told I'm stuck up.

I really don't know why I bother sometimes (sigh)...

Quote: "For all you guys know i could be studing programing in a
university!!"


Oh I don't think so somehow. Let's look at the facts...

You joined the forums on 10th May.

13th May 2005: You post:

Quote: "I am new to Dark BASIC Pro. Although i have learned a bit of the code (But Any help will be accepted). I have made my own small Text based game, and even though it is not very good i am only begnning."


7th Sep 2005: You post:

Quote: " I have made a few different posts here asking for general help with
DarkBASIC programming launguage but knowone ever answers me or gives me any help. i tried the newcomers section and found a tutorial there (Thanks Hamish!) but it was a bit confusing and didnt
talk about game creating. So if someone can please give poor little
me a hand i would like it very much

after all i have been waiting since may and havent made a simple game (Except for a text based one with evermore dreams in the backround)"


8th Sep 2005: You post:

Quote: "Hi i need a good tutorial about Loops

The if command and all the other loops please"


12th Sep 2005. You post:

Quote: "does anyone want to take on the burden of teaching me how to program darkBASIC pro games we could start of simple by designing the game and then by adding sound textures and camera views(no knowledge on camera programming) i know this is a weird post and you will probaly tell me to find out for myself but if you keep that up you'll scare away all the newbies"


In another post on the same day, you ask how If..Else..Endif works.

15th Sep 2005: You post:

Quote: "I am trying to make it that when you press the upkey it will delete the paddle image and paste it a little higher to get an up and down effect but it wont work the code launches but nothing happens
Someone help me please"


20th Sep 2005. You post:

Quote: "I am making a pong game as that is the place to start the only problem is how do i get the the computer to control the ball and the opposing paddle?

Oh and how do i make boundarys around the screen to prevent the ball or the paddles from leaving the screen?"


29th Sep 2005. You post:

Quote: "I am trying to load a note pad doc i have made but i dont know how if there is a way can someone please tell me, how to load it and paste it onto the screen"


The next post is announcing your forthcoming tutorial...

I wouldn't normally go back quoting people's old posts, but you did question my suggestion that you weren't experienced...

Most of these posts are within the last 8 weeks or so and I don't think you'll find anyone on here who would say that that's long enough to be using a programming language to gain enough experience to write a tutorial.

Just ask 'Some Guy' - he tried it once...

[Edit] Oh I nearly forgot... Thread Still Open!

TDK_Man

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Darth Vader
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Posted: 4th Oct 2005 06:58
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Look TDK i do know how to program and it is said that
the more questions you ask the more the more you learn,
i can't give the exact quote but that is how it sort of goes.

Quote: "OK, I've been called lots of things, but never 'stuck up'! Lol"


Your first post talked me down that is why i called you stuck up.
Now lets forget about this arugment as it will get us nowhere, you can have your opinion of me, that is entirley your right, but nothing you say is stopping me from creating my tutorials.

Thank You and Kind Regards!

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Darth Vader
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Posted: 4th Oct 2005 07:26
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Oh forgot to mention!
If really want, i can post my first tutorial on this thread then you can honestly(and i say honestly because i dont want our little fight to get in the way)evaluate it and tell me what you think.

What do you say?

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master programmer
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Posted: 4th Oct 2005 08:03 Edited at: 4th Oct 2005 08:04
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I say....bring it on! lol

I'm not much of a flamer so you don't have to worry about me

(Hee hee, you certainly did your homework by digging up posts, TDK)

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Darth Vader
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Posted: 4th Oct 2005 09:18
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Okay here is the first Tutorial it is of course very basic.
Oh dont worry i have bought an anti flaming jumper so you tear this tutorial to pieces and i wont mind!

Here she is!!

You Don't know the power of the Dark Side!!

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TDK
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Posted: 4th Oct 2005 13:12
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Quote: "Your first post talked me down that is why i called you stuck up."


I didn't talk you down - I was simply pointing out the facts and helping you in a plain, but non-nasty way.

Quote: "Now lets forget about this arugment as it will get us nowhere"


We don't have arguments on a forum - just debates...

Quote: "nothing you say is stopping me from creating my tutorials"


If you read my posts properly, you will see that nowhere did I say to you "do not write a tutorial".

I merely said that newcomers to DB don't have enough experience and shouldn't write tutorials. I then gave you some tips on how to write one should you decide to go ahead anyway. Big difference...

I've read your tutorial, but will leave commenting on it to others.

All I will say is that with the tips I gave you in my first post, I thought you would at least have put in the effort to prove me wrong...

TDK_Man

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RUCCUS
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Posted: 4th Oct 2005 15:24 Edited at: 4th Oct 2005 15:25
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It doesn't really matter he won't listen he's determined to complete something as most newcommers are so might aswell just let him go on with it. If it comes out good then great a new tutorial, but by the looks of things so far it's not starting out too good. If it ends up being crappy then who cares, im sure the newbies will read it and notice it isn't that great of a tutorial and will ignore it.

DV please understand I'm not flaming you but you really aren't ready to write a tutorial, especially from the amazing amount of proof TDK offered. Either way goodluck.

Your signature has been erased by a mod because it's larger than 600x120...
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BatVink
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Posted: 4th Oct 2005 15:47 Edited at: 4th Oct 2005 15:50
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Not flaming, just offering some advice to spruce up your tutorial...

Use a sans-serif font, such as Verdana or Arial. Times New Roman is unfriendly, distracting, and difficult for sight-impaired people to read.

Don't be scared of white space. Space is good, helps to improve understanding and provides a place for doodling and making notes.

Indent code, and change it's colour. If you are using Word, set up styles for your document, it's far easier in the long run and makes the document consistent.

Assume nothing. If you are teaching somebody to code "Hello World", you also have to provide information on how to compile and run the program. You can do this with "Callouts" if it is not relevant to the main tutorial, and provide the details in an information box.

Check and double-check your grammar. If you are using Word, you have no excuse. Make sure the spelling and grammar checker is on, and deal with every red and green underline.

Have a look at the way other successful tutorials are written. They are successful for a reason.

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Grog Grueslayer
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Posted: 6th Oct 2005 21:17
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Quote: "1. I have'nt used all of the commands in Darkbasic yet.
2. I almost never indent my code.
3. I never use REM statements, I use the ` opperator, much cleaner
4. I only stay away from GOTO because I've never had a use for it

...So basically no to all of those pretty much, and I'm not a newbie. Atleast Im prety sure I'm not, I hope not because I've been writing that tutorial on FPSs o.O . Might want to reconcider that der list of urs yungin.

5. Oh and functions own so there."


1. Me either
2. What?!? Say it ain't so! How do you keep track of huge nested code?
3. Me too. I just said "rem" so newbies could understand too.
4. I only use functions... I even keep away from using GOSUB. It's easy write code without lables at all.
5. I figured that was a given.

I don't consider myself a newbie either... but i'm definately not qualified to write a tutorial yet. I just wanted to stress some of the important things when writing code. Things that "newbies" tend to not do at all. You should really indent your code. It makes it easier to read... especially when you go back to look at the code a year later or even 15+ years later. Indenting also allows you to easily find nesting errors which are always problems for newbies. If they start out right and indent their code... they'll have a whole lot less headaches when debuging.

Thanks for the compliment in calling me a "yungin"... i'm 34.
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Grog Grueslayer
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Posted: 6th Oct 2005 22:00
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Quote: "Look TDK i do know how to program and it is said that
the more questions you ask the more the more you learn,
i can't give the exact quote but that is how it sort of goes."


Yes but there is another old saying that applies to newbies writing tutorials:

A little knowledge is a dangerous thing.

I use that a lot when fixing computers that people "thought" they could fix themselves... all they do is make the problem worse. Yes, you know how to code... but do you know the code inside and out?

For example in your tutorial you write:



That of course prints "enter your name" on one line then right under that is where the input is. Input allows you to have a string of text also. So you can have the input on the same line as the prompt for input... thus elimating a line of code. Like:



When people put "tutorial" on the subject newbies see it and automatically assume that the poster knows the best way to write code. When the poster of a tutorial only knows a little bit about a command (a little knowledge) the poster teaches newbies bad habits that may haunt them for the rest of their life. Of course I doubt your tutorial would cause that.
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RUCCUS
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Posted: 7th Oct 2005 04:59 Edited at: 7th Oct 2005 05:00
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nevermind

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