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Game Design Theory / [STICKY] Level Design Theory:Tutorial/Tips

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Gyrich
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Posted: 30th Aug 2006 00:55
First of all, these level design lectures ROCK. This is the type of stuff I can really use, so thank you for your effort.

I wanted to ask you if that is MS Visio that you used to make those images to exemplify the Volcano/cylindrical, Funnel, and Hiding World Edges tutorials? From the look of it, using that program (whatever it is) would greatly help me plan out my levels for my games.

So what proggy did you use to make those images, hmmmm?


Thanks a bunch, and if anyone else knows the answer to this question, please feel free to help out

DBPro User
PC: WinXP, AthlonXP 2100+ 1.7ghz, 80gb HD, Nvidia GeForce FX 5200 (128mb onboard RAM), 512mb DDR400 system RAM. Thank you for your help.
Tinkergirl
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Posted: 1st Sep 2006 01:10
Soz - been on holiday (Japan - yay!) so I was unable to reply before (I'll reply seperately to the other thread for completeness and for future searches).

The above diagrams (volcano, edges etc) were done using Sketchup. Sketchup can be a very good visualisation tool, handy for getting rough shapes of levels arranged and made 3d very very quickly. Generally, the rectangle tool, the cut tool, and the push/pull tool are of the most use for very rough work. The freehand tool can be nice for the cliffs you saw in the World Edges tutorial, but those shapes can restrict you later when you want to cut into an uneven shape.

Hope that helps.

Xenocythe
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Posted: 2nd Sep 2006 22:00
Keemo, give it up. She'll write what she wants to write about.


NA170425
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Posted: 24th Oct 2006 23:44
These level design tips are great! Please write more soon.

Quote: "Quote: "you've actually got me considering writing a short book/let on various game/level design aspects."

I'd buy it."


Me too.

Confucius Say...
Siolis
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Posted: 4th Nov 2006 03:39
Lady, write a book, seriously.

Also, please do a bit of RPG's, you havent so far, or if you want, i could try my hand at it as im a good writer and got some ideas on how to do an RPG area (tech not a level as RPG's dont really have levels).



Doh!
Bizar Guy
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Posted: 6th Nov 2006 12:41 Edited at: 6th Nov 2006 12:55
While Tinkergril should definitely do something on rpgs if she ever plans to make anything out of this, I recommend looking here to get some very excellent and detailed advice from one of the rpg gurus around here.

If Tinkergril decides to do something on rpgs though, I recommend it be something more overall and more understandable to the basic reader, with more to do with concept rather than code, like most of her tuts.


Please don't post in the thread my sig leads to.
Siolis
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Posted: 6th Nov 2006 16:04
Yeah my point, I want concept not code, hence why I’m in this forum and not the DBP forum.

As I say anyway, I know a lot about how RPG's are built such as sandbox RPG's (Like Oblivion) and Liner RPG's (Like FF10) so I just wanted another opinion on the subject or a go ahead to solidify my ideas and post them here.

Doh!
indi
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Posted: 21st Nov 2006 09:32
Great work tinkergirl, your lone work in this post is really very insightful.

Im building a maze game thats procedurally generated by the computer and i was at a loss to define the realms objects in regards to spicing it up, this really helped.

xplosys
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Posted: 2nd Dec 2006 00:15
I just happened on this thread and WOW! Tinker, I hope you haven't left us for good, but if you're gone, it won't hurt to bump this again.

Thanks for the amazing info.

Best.

The forum provides a means to hide our true identity. Too bad we always screw up and let it be seen.

Tifu
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Posted: 3rd Dec 2006 15:45
You can't bump a sticky

Tinkergirl
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Posted: 5th Dec 2006 14:54
I'm still around, but I'm sorry I've not done any posts here for a long time. Nice to know it's still helping people, though! Thanks.

Garzu
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Posted: 9th Jan 2007 00:22
Tinkergirl, i've only just seen this thread. You rock!

have a on me
ThinkDigital
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Posted: 21st Jan 2007 08:58
Touching back on the scariness idea - and yes, I know I'm a little late , but I just discovered this thread and I found particularly interesting (nothing I love more than trying to make the game more interesting that it's graphics) - a great tactic with sound is to include sounds that don't completely correspond with how things appear.

Now of course I don't mean anything drastic - no empty train stations that sound full, or crap like that. It's more sort of like what Tinkergirl said "movement at the edge of the camera" and about the disappearing dress, in sound instead of visual.

A classic, of course, is where there appears to be no movement at all - but occasionally you hear someone moving around.

Of course, fear is also produced by a couple of other things I could name:

1) Fear of being surprised - kinda fits in with fear of the unknown, but a little more specific. Supposed you're trying a locked door, and you find it's locked. As you walk away, the door clatters to the ground in a flash, and an enemy takes of 20 health points. The next time you approach such a situation, you find yourself prepared for something similar - and an enemy drops down on you from the roof as you try the door.

2) Fear of the inevitable - I'll let you use your imagination. Basically, something is coming that you cannot escape conflict with (again, it helps plenty if that something is completely unknown to the player as other than "something terrifying") For an example, read Poe's "Masque of the Red Death"

Again, just putting in my two cents worth.

The tutorials, Tinkergirl, are absolutely terrific. I love it when people actually show people how to do something, instead of just calling them an idiot when they mess up (like many do).

Keep up the great work! (You should really consider packaging them into a PDF or DOC sometime!)
KYP
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Posted: 22nd Jan 2007 04:48
This thread rocks! I agree with everyone who says that you should make a book. I'd buy one for sure.

The only thing that I have anything to add about is the horror section.

Quote: "Daisies can be scary: The calling card of a brutal murderer, the sign that the ghost approaches are daisies magically growing on the floor, or even the hollow voice in the shadowy places singing "She loves me, she loves me not...""


I agree especially with the last example. Disembodied voices are very scary, as long as you don’t use them in excess. Also, about the train station idea, something that would add to the effect of “completely changed” would be if there was some kind of sprite with a strange or scary image that covered the entire screen, but it was so transparent that you couldn’t see it unless you knew it was there, yet you sensed it.

Besides that, I don’t have anything to offer, except a question: say you're in a jungle scene. How do you contain the player within a relatively small area without invisible force fields or cheesy walls of trees?

That's weird, I haven't blinked for the last minute! Hmm...
Tinkergirl
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Posted: 28th Jan 2007 00:57 Edited at: 28th Jan 2007 01:03
Sorry I haven't posted much here in a while, so here's something for 'kinda young programmer' on how to contain (or 'gate') the player in a relatively small area in a jungle.



Basically, if you have the player in a forested area, you will probably have trouble gating them. I recommend looking at FarCry for a good example of a jungle environment which looks like it's freeform, but is actually cleverly contained.

What FarCry did, was that they created arenas of gameplay, surrounded by cliffs or helicopter-death, and heavily forested those arenas to make them seem bigger and less like the 'green coloured room' that they actually are. They are just connected with one-way corridors of either valley or uphill struggle. Going back is easy, but it makes you take the narrow path if you want to progress.

So, use lots of foliage, and don't ever let the player see from one 'wall' (cliff, river, wall, etc) to another in a straight line. And if you want to make the player feel like they've got freedom, let them double back on themselves in interesting (but one-way) paths - down a cliff they were not able to climb.

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Bizar Guy
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Posted: 6th Feb 2007 03:01 Edited at: 6th Feb 2007 03:43
That's really usefull. Very clever.

Please PLEASE make this into a book (even a pdf file would be fine). I want a paper version of all this. Heck, I should probably just compile everything here into a doc and add to it as you post more. Hmm...

Anyways, A lot of this is going to come in handy when I start my Longest Journey type Avdenture. I should probably put you in the credits once I finish in the distant future just because of all the help this thread has given me.

I'll be right back. I need to uh, make a print out.

Edit: 34 pages of Awesome s far.

Could you do one on 3D 3rd person cameras? I'm doing lots of expiriments with them right now, and am having trouble finding a good balance between the art of the shot and the useability. In fact, 3rd person cameras seem to be about the most dificult part of most 3rd person games just to make useable at all.

Van B
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Posted: 9th Feb 2007 15:01
Another good-un Tinker. I agree, you should compile these and add them to a book on level design - especially if you can make a nice chunky section of FPSC style levels, I think FPSC users would really go for that.

''Stick that in your text and scroll it!.''
Vampiric
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Posted: 27th Feb 2007 18:34
Another great tutorial, that foliage thing is wierd, does it just obscure the edges of the level or does it confuse the mind into thinking it's bigger?

Computer says n00bed
NA170425
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Posted: 27th Feb 2007 23:16
It does both, by letting the player see only a little bit, they will want to explore what's on the other side of the trees. When there's no trees you can see everything right away and get bored.

Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons...for you are crunchy and good with ketchup.
jasonhtml
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Posted: 2nd Mar 2007 03:19
nice! *wants another* and i like the compiling it into a book idea

Shadow heart
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Posted: 12th Mar 2007 02:45
This should be alot of help thanks!

Graphics Outlet, an outlet for Graphics
NA170425
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Posted: 25th Mar 2007 03:50 Edited at: 28th Mar 2007 00:49
Quote: "What about general level layouts in a 3d platformer, based on collecting multiple items around the level (ex: stars in mario64)?"


Oh, yes! I love those free-roaming action-adventure games where you use items to advance. Banjo-Tooie, Mario 64, and DK 64 did a excellent job on that. It would be great if you did a tutorial on those kinds levels where you have to collect a certain number of items (stars/jiggies/bananas/etc) to get to the next level. Those levels are quite a bit more free-roaming than most of the ones you've talked about so far, and I can't ever figure out how they squeeze 10+ complex tasks into a level without making it too huge.

By reading this you have given me brief control of your mind.
Figure this out: ¿Un libro? Yo odio los libros. Libro es estúpido.
Julius Caesar
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Posted: 13th Jun 2007 14:54
Where has Tinkergirl gone?

This, one of the best threads ever made, cannot be allowed to die!

NinJA999
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Posted: 19th Jul 2007 05:04
I agree with Julius! Must...not...be...locked!

Libervurto
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Posted: 25th Jul 2007 01:56 Edited at: 25th Jul 2007 02:00
@Tink
Your ideas are awesome! (haven't read them all yet)
I love the HUB and Branching routes, I have played games with these but it never really clicked till you said it .

I'm making a medieval themed game with 3 heroes, each with different strengths and weaknesses, the player can switch between them and choose the most suitable for the task ahead.
The Hub idea would be great for starting the game off, each hero could have their own trial to complete.
Then branching levels could allow the player to use their favourite hero.

I am gonna bookmark this

[EDIT]
The gating is all about what you would expect in real life isn't it. You wouldn't walk of a cliff or off the roof of a building would you!

I am king of the noobs!
Squelchy Tom
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Posted: 30th Aug 2007 19:10
Quote: "Another good-un Tinker. I agree, you should compile these and add them to a book on level design - especially if you can make a nice chunky section of FPSC style levels, I think FPSC users would really go for that."


Yesh i agree, i am ussually confined to the fpsc boards because thats where the little experience i have lies. I stumbled across this and it is REALLY helpful i would apriciate it if you could share more of your knowledge :/.

I especially liked the last one as i am planning on a fps/puzzle game (like tombraider but in 1st not 3rd person) set in the jungle, if you could do a few more based in a jungle/swamp/forested area it would be legendary

Thanks!
~SquelchyTom
MonoCoder
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Posted: 3rd Sep 2007 01:50 Edited at: 26th Feb 2008 01:27
I don't think Tinkergirl visits here anymore, unfortunately. However, there's nothing to stop anyone from carrying on with this thread where she left off, with further tutorials, if they so wish. It'd be a shame to have this thread end as it is, as it has obviously proven to be of benefit to many thus far, and could continue to be more so.

Give me an ounce of Puyo, good apothecary, to sweeten my imagination.
Raven
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Posted: 15th Sep 2007 15:00
Tinkergirl is just busy with work and her other commitments, so she's unable to really come on the forums much now.

If any of you have questions about level design though, post them up and I'll try to answer them in the same way. Been through a number of the last few requests mind and think people saw this too much as a "design this for me", remember what she posted here were concepts and techniques to build upon.

Quite a fair bit of environment design, relies heavily on providing an atmosphere at the lowest effort to yourself. A good tip would be if you're stuck with how to design something then play some games that have the effect you're looking for.

I mean most level design really comes from keeping everything simple and to the point, the graphics come in to play in order to hide or distract the player from noticing how simple everything is.

Penfold
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Posted: 1st Oct 2007 01:29
I'd love a PDF copy of the information in this thread (like so many) I hope that the tinkerlady will do this for me and others. Its ok having it bookmarked but so hard to find something your looking for with so many good comments, agreed a small printed book would be good, with mebe some more on rts etc set up aswell the majority FPS which is included here.

Very VERY good work.

'Ooh 'eck chief'...'crumbs'
aluseus GOD
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Posted: 14th Oct 2007 03:55
you forget the 2d games. WHat about them?


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MonoCoder
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Posted: 15th Oct 2007 21:50
Well, what kind of 2D game specifically?

Support the music forum proposal or I'll eat your face.

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Yodaman Jer
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Posted: 17th Dec 2007 03:18
Interesting question completely un-related..kinda..
How do you create a sticky here?
And thanks for the great tut, tinkergirl!! This should really help me in the future...

Yodaman Jer

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tha_rami
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Posted: 17th Dec 2007 07:49
I was semi-impressed. Most of this stuff is common knowledge for any game designer, isn't it? I mean, I liked the ' shoot 'em up ' corridor, but besides that it's just stating the obvious - which can be very useful at times as well.


A mod has been erased by your signature because it was larger than 600x120
KYP
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Posted: 27th Dec 2007 02:45
Quote: "How do you create a sticky here?"


'tis an ability reserved for mods, I believe.

Quote: "I was semi-impressed. Most of this stuff is common knowledge for any game designer, isn't it? I mean, I liked the ' shoot 'em up ' corridor, but besides that it's just stating the obvious - which can be very useful at times as well."


I don't know. Some people have a natural understanding of good level design, but many gamers lack this ability (including me). Even for people who are good at it, it's still nice to hear someone else's take.


A signature has modded your eraser because of it's many resolutions.
Wait, that's not right...
Beast E Gargoyle
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Posted: 18th Jan 2008 02:24 Edited at: 18th Jan 2008 17:31
@Tinkergirl
Your examples and tutorials are Top Notch! I have a quick question for ya" What would be some good ideas for a 3d action/adventure game that mainly takes place in Desert type levels?" I really liked the stop boundry of using quick sand that would be great. For vegetation i'm gonna use a Cactus and for a sandy prop i found some 3d bones. Btw does anyone know where I can find a free 3d model of a cactus? Anyone have anymore desert ideas? All the best, Beastegargoyle

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MonoCoder
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Posted: 18th Jan 2008 19:19 Edited at: 18th Jan 2008 19:22
An idea of sorts:



Left Picture: The dark yellow box around the edge is your general area boundary. To the west is the sea, to the north is a deep pit of sorts, that is too deep to traverse, to the east are pyramids (with a wall- grey line), and to the south, an oasis with a thick growth of trees, too compacted to get through. Of course, there are lots of gaps where the player can slip right past these.

Right Picture: Zoomed out version- the player can see a blank desert/seascape in the distance. Directly north of the pit is a mound- a cliff, even- that rises right above it. The dark-red outline around the edge is as far as the player can reach- the visibility dims, a sandstorm begins, and when the visibility is at a minimum (furthest from play area), the player collides with an invisible edge-of-world wall, and must turn back to the play area.

Of course, that's just one idea for a generic level. The oasis, pyramids, and pit are there as landmarks outlining the general edge of the play area, and the player is not forced back by them, but "warned" that he is approaching the edge. You could probably stand to have more trees scattered around to give a stronger edge, but not too many or it becomes obvious. In any case, the "sandstorm at edge" idea is a good one to use for any desert level.

You might want to copy the images to paint or such and zoom in to see the maps clearly.

Luck good.

Shove your shitty MMORPG idea and get me a drink.
Beast E Gargoyle
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Posted: 18th Jan 2008 19:32
I'm not sure about the other ideas but the sandstorm is a great idea for my game.Also my guy will be really playable I added a swim animation to him so maybe I might combine your two pictures into 1 big map. Thanks Monocoder. All the best, Beastegargoyle

Streets of Rage the best 3d beat em up ever check out the wip on apollo forums!
Dared1111
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Posted: 28th Feb 2008 13:26
basicly you want reaching boundries fun but almost impossible. farcry did this, no boundry but you would die.


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TeamASP
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Posted: 19th Mar 2008 06:20
TinkerGirl's tutorials are great and helpful for people whose minds are drained due to recent schoolwork (like me). Remarkable! If this would be a PDF document, I'd certainly have it in hard copy!

How can you recommend someone to be a moderator? Someone here deserves a promotion.

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infinite people
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Posted: 3rd Jun 2008 04:36
A great forum. Every beginner sure does need this

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El Goorf
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Posted: 14th Jun 2008 01:47
Quote: "A great forum. Every beginner sure does need this"


beginners and pros alike!

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carmel
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Posted: 22nd Jul 2008 01:26
does any1 know if fps creator x10 is just for vista?? or can it be for regualr computer, and does fps creator x10 also have online capabilities too?? and do u need fps creator x10 and the regular version, or do you just need fps creator x10??

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Neuro Fuzzy
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Posted: 21st Aug 2008 07:58
Really cool ideas. I noticed all of these reminded me of alot of games.
train photos 1&2: Gears of war
train photos 3&4: the darkness
jungle: LOZ windwaker
volcano: Crackdown, for this, they used the same principle, but put it on an oil rig. Also, this was in windwaker too, and in banjo kazooie. With the added idea of being a spider to climb up the walls... something along those lines, haven't played it in a long time.

And its great to see that people are contributing to the post. Though one, very organized person with great ideas and a wrapup of everything, along with visuals and other stuff, is great, other people's ideas are great too. I was actually just thinking about open world level design when i found this post.

I think the only true, complete open world game, is EVE online, for obvious reasons. However, this is dwarfed by the new hit title, not even out yet, Spore. But this doesn't really use level design, because everything is randomly/procedurally generated.

So, i was just thinking about mixing open world type games with the massiveness of an open world games. I got nothin.

XD
Inspire
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Posted: 27th Aug 2008 06:04
@ carmel:

This is explained on their site.
petsall
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Posted: 1st Sep 2008 14:30
awesome tuts tinker me wants more

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Deathead
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Posted: 2nd Sep 2008 20:46
Tinkergirl hasn't been online for quite sometime now.


"Your greatest teacher is your harshest critic"-Butterfingers
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Posted: 13th Oct 2008 04:31
agreed something like a year or so
MonoCoder
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Posted: 17th Nov 2008 00:31 Edited at: 24th Nov 2008 00:49
Alright, I'll just ahead and post this here.
I hate to see such a thread unused, so I'm going to try and take up the tutorial challenge in absence of TG. However, I'm not sure what topics or such to cover, so give me some and I'll run with them.

EDIT: Trying my hand at a tutorial on some of the basics of 2D Platformers.

cheers and stuff

Space Shooter - Another DBP GUI - last build of discontinued puyo
sometime December or something
piXX3D
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Posted: 22nd Nov 2008 20:06
It sure was damn useful... shame that Tinkergirl's gone
visual dreamer
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Posted: 6th Mar 2009 20:04
i was wondering can you use 3d max to make a good lvl or do you need a different program for that?

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