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Geek Culture / Make way...

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Kanzure
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Posted: 21st Feb 2003 05:02
I guess its time for the nerds to rise.

READ FIRST
[url=http://www.cafeshops.com/cp/zoom.aspx?p=641627
]READ SECOND[/url]


Some people think that site is actually telling the truth! o_O
~Morph
Owner of MultiCode.NET.
I know HTML, PHP, Perl, JavaScript, VBScript, Visual Basic, C/C++, QBasic, YaBasic, and now Dark Basic/Pro...
Kanzure
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Posted: 21st Feb 2003 05:03
READ SECOND

Sorry, bad link ;

~Morph
Owner of MultiCode.NET.
I know HTML, PHP, Perl, JavaScript, VBScript, Visual Basic, C/C++, QBasic, YaBasic, and now Dark Basic/Pro...
Gu re gu
21
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Location: United Kingdom
Posted: 21st Feb 2003 15:38
Ha ha thats very funny
i wish it was true though.

Daih Thel phae 'e, clann 'e phaen
actarus
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Posted: 21st Feb 2003 15:51
Joke?!?You mean as if I did this very thing using your mother's face?oh right now i get it.

Don't forget that people would love him even more and would remember him for long so maybe it could actually be a good thing...

Just remember that you're standing on a planet that's evolving
And revolving at nine hundred miles an hour!
Kanzure
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Posted: 21st Feb 2003 15:58
hehe..I wonder if MS would ever buy out Linux..That would be intresting, and also a dooms day.

~Morph
Owner of MultiCode.NET.
I know HTML, PHP, Perl, JavaScript, VBScript, Visual Basic, C/C++, QBasic, YaBasic, and now Dark Basic/Pro...
Kanzure
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Posted: 21st Feb 2003 16:00
Just think about it, and play the Terminator 2 theme in the backround !

~Morph
Owner of MultiCode.NET.
I know HTML, PHP, Perl, JavaScript, VBScript, Visual Basic, C/C++, QBasic, YaBasic, and now Dark Basic/Pro...
actarus
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Posted: 21st Feb 2003 16:02
I doubt it but you never know,maybe MS has already done that. j/k

It's almost as unsure as Linux taking over MS.

Just remember that you're standing on a planet that's evolving
And revolving at nine hundred miles an hour!
Kanzure
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Posted: 21st Feb 2003 16:03
Linux isn't making that much money, and besides, they are split up into houndreds of diffrent companies. I actually hope that they stay like that. It makes them unique, and also gives me something to do with C++.

~Morph
Owner of MultiCode.NET.
I know HTML, PHP, Perl, JavaScript, VBScript, Visual Basic, C/C++, QBasic, YaBasic, and now Dark Basic/Pro...
actarus
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Posted: 21st Feb 2003 16:08
That's what I mean.

Who would like Linux to have a monopoly on the market.

Now they'd be the ones that'd be hated...Unless the company isn't American...Seems.

Just remember that you're standing on a planet that's evolving
And revolving at nine hundred miles an hour!
Kanzure
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Posted: 21st Feb 2003 16:09
Linux is made by Jap. or somebody over there, my school technologist knows something about that..

~Morph
Owner of MultiCode.NET and Multi2k.NET.
Nothing is something, and something is then nothing. Life is an illusion.
actarus
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Posted: 21st Feb 2003 16:15
Nope.

http://www.cs.helsinki.fi/linux/

Just remember that you're standing on a planet that's evolving
And revolving at nine hundred miles an hour!
Shadow Robert
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Posted: 21st Feb 2003 20:19
Linux itself is an open source OS ... it'd be like saying that the Quake2 engine could take over Valve Software.

Just ain't gonna happen
However Microsoft could purchase the rights to exclusive use of the software from the original creators - which would make any concecutive OSs that used it a breech of the contract (^_^)

then Microsoft would just have BeOS2, Unix, Solaris and AmigaOS to go (there is another 2 but i forget the names)

Microsoft can never get a full Monopoly over the OS market, any more than id Software could over the games market ... its just not as obvious that they can't

Tsu'va Oni Ni Jyuuko Fiori Sei Tau!
One block follows the suit ... the whole suit of blocks is the path ... what have you found?
Kanzure
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Posted: 22nd Feb 2003 00:11
Actually, they make about 250~ billion a year. I bet you if they spent all their time (not to mention MONEY) they could get all of them...


You forgot Mac. and FreeBSD...

~Morph
Owner of MultiCode.NET and Multi2k.NET.
Nothing is something, and something is then nothing. Life is an illusion.
LLX
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Posted: 22nd Feb 2003 00:17
*cough*Lindows*cough*

Shadow Robert
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Posted: 22nd Feb 2003 01:32
yeah thats the one i had on the back of my mine FreeBSD

MacOS doesn't count because it can't run anything except 68k PowerPC processors (ie Mac Machines )
the point i made isn't that they need to buy up all the linux companies ... they just need to purchase the prority licence on the original source.

it would mean without Microsofts permission anything added thereafter would be claimable by themselves
but still wouldn't make them a true monopoly

Tsu'va Oni Ni Jyuuko Fiori Sei Tau!
One block follows the suit ... the whole suit of blocks is the path ... what have you found?
Kanzure
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Posted: 22nd Feb 2003 02:59
MacOS is pretty trashy. Mac10 has just got a command prompt. Hope Linux doesn't take the path of Windows and keeps going in that direction.

I would like to see linux evolve into a half linux, half Mac, and half windows !

~Morph
Owner of MultiCode.NET and Multi2k.NET.
Nothing is something, and something is then nothing. Life is an illusion.
Shadow Robert
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Posted: 22nd Feb 2003 03:02
believe it or not the only gripe i have with windows is its Memory Setup

which is actually completely changing in .Net so really don't care if they get a monopoly other than they'll charge to dang much

i mean behind AmigaOS its still the easiest and best OS in my eyes

Tsu'va Oni Ni Jyuuko Fiori Sei Tau!
One block follows the suit ... the whole suit of blocks is the path ... what have you found?
Kanzure
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Posted: 22nd Feb 2003 03:04
Never used it. I only like Windows. Reliable multibillion dollar company backing up the OS, tons of proggies, easy(ish) to use prompt, and thousands of books.

Of course this is because Windows somehow became the better OS over Mac when it was released, making everybody automatically come to windows.

Funny. I bet Linux was devolped on windows .

~Morph
Owner of MultiCode.NET and Multi2k.NET.
Nothing is something, and something is then nothing. Life is an illusion.
Shadow Robert
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Posted: 22nd Feb 2003 03:08
nope... its more likely Linux was developed upon something more along the lines of DOS - which one i couldn't say, but its almost as old as MS-DOS and older than Windows (atleast any you'd recognise)

Tsu'va Oni Ni Jyuuko Fiori Sei Tau!
One block follows the suit ... the whole suit of blocks is the path ... what have you found?
Richard Davey
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Posted: 22nd Feb 2003 03:26
MS-DOS? Nah, it was developed on a minix system originally back in 1992 (and even then was nothing more than a gnu port). Windows (3.0) existed in 1990 in the form most of us oldies know it.

http://www.li.org/linuxhistory.php

Cheers,

Rich

"Gentlemen, we are about to short-circuit the Universe!"
DB Team / Atari ST / DarkForge / Retro Gaming
Kanzure
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Posted: 22nd Feb 2003 03:57
Minix System? Thats so old, I don't even know of it (^_^)..Guess thats not too old then ! Windows 3.0..Got it must have sucked .

~Morph
Owner of MultiCode.NET and Multi2k.NET.
Nothing is something, and something is then nothing. Life is an illusion.
The Communist
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Posted: 22nd Feb 2003 04:56
linux rocks. really a great alternative to the imperialistic microsoft-products. it's a shame i have to use windows because of db =)

anyway, if bill gates died, then someone else would take over after him. so it doesn't really matter. doesn't change anything

Workers of all lands, Unite!
Kanzure
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Posted: 22nd Feb 2003 05:18
Yes it does. Wealthies man in the world - gone! People must remember new person as richest! Too lazy..can not..remember...new billionare..must use refrence..(^_^)

~Morph
Owner of MultiCode.NET and Multi2k.NET.
Nothing is something, and something is then nothing. Life is an illusion.
Shadow Robert
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Posted: 22nd Feb 2003 07:04
i thought Linux was done in like '78 ... it only got the graphical front in like '92 atleast thats the ghist i got when there was a big old discussion about the OSs here

though maybe that was Minix - lol i dunno, i remember saying that Windows was older than Linux and i was totally shot down by like 5 people saying it wasn't.

still remember it being like something made up mostly by the community and enhanced by the community until it was taken up by people like RedHat and Mandrake, etc...

you know you don't have to use Windows to use DarkBasic, because WinX is a very good and stable update (atleast on RedHat 6.3) for using DirectX based programs, you install WinX then the DirectX you wish to use
not quite as fast as true DirectX but still cool.


though what was minix cause i don't remember that one
i did say along the lines of a DOS (^_^) never did say which one cause i didn't have a clue.

back then i remember all there, were happen to be Disk Operating Systems - because stuff like Windows required one to work (and to a degree still do )

ahh... i miss good ol' Dos 6.22 with Windows 3.11

Tsu'va Oni Ni Jyuuko Fiori Sei Tau!
One block follows the suit ... the whole suit of blocks is the path ... what have you found?
Richard Davey
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Posted: 22nd Feb 2003 13:21
Well, Linux doesn't have a graphical front-end per-se. X-Windows wasn't created for Linux but rather for Unix O/S's many years before and Linux just runs it, that's all.

If you look at the link above you'll see Linus Torvalds original usenet posts when he was first testing it and it wasn't until 92 that something solid existed, until that point it was just a minix port with some new posix code. Still, from little acorns and all that...

Minix is just a Unix variant. There are hundreds of them. Unix has been around since the dawn of computing time pretty much, so to say that Unix came before "Windows" is 100% accurate. Linux however is a far newer breed of Unix.

Minix/Linux/etc are nothing to do with DOS and were never developed on DOS-based machines. They were developed on Unix machines. What's more, none of them need (or indeed will work!) on DOS either. They're complete replacements.

WinX will run some old DBV1 code, but not much of it and it's very far from stable I'm afraid. But who knows.. maybe in the future they'll improve it. Would be nice. I'd like to see DB on the Mac first though

Linux is and always will be an open-source project - no one company can or ever will own the rights to it all. They can own their respective flavours of it (Red Hat, et all) but Microsoft could never "buy Linux" because there's no-one to buy it from

Cheers,

Rich

"Gentlemen, we are about to short-circuit the Universe!"
DB Team / Atari ST / DarkForge / Retro Gaming
Shadow Robert
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Posted: 22nd Feb 2003 23:31
hehee... ahh thats is Linux from Unix - for some reason i was thinking it was the other way around.

if you think about it though Minix would've had to have been a DOS cause all the title DOS stands for is Disk Operating System ... because it was an operating system run from a Disk

i mean i remember that if something ran MSDOS, or DRDOS, etc.. it'd be called an IBM-Compatible Machine ... but that was before OS-Warp came along ofcourse.

obvisouly though if Minix was too large to support on a bootable Diskette then i guess it can't of been a dos.

I'm trying to remember Unix was built direct from machine wasn't it like the DOS based OS's ... i know at the very least they're both ASCII based, yet use different Disk Partition formats.
which i'd had the chance to use those OS's when i was growing up ... first time i learnt of Unix was when my dad took me to a college to fixx the network like in '90 and was there was messing about on the systems and i couldn't use it very well cause it looked all weird to me

that was the same year i found out what the command.com did by deleting it from my dads system - god he was livid at me

Tsu'va Oni Ni Jyuuko Fiori Sei Tau!
One block follows the suit ... the whole suit of blocks is the path ... what have you found?
Shadow Robert
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Posted: 22nd Feb 2003 23:32
well you know DarkBasic and DarkBasic Pro work perfectly in AmigaOS 3.5x and XL

Tsu'va Oni Ni Jyuuko Fiori Sei Tau!
One block follows the suit ... the whole suit of blocks is the path ... what have you found?
Kanzure
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Posted: 23rd Feb 2003 21:41
I've only had experiance with Windows, Macs, and 1 Linux system (Thiz Linux o_O).. Linux is quite diffrent, although its GUI seems to be modeled after Windows. Macs aren't the best, and I don't think Dark Basic will be put on there any time soon.. I mean, it would loose more money then it would gain. Mac people are few now a days. Only a few million, but as with windows, houndreds of million of people. (Well, same ratios (^_^)). If it did go to the Mac, I don't expect much from sales.

~Morph
Owner of MultiCode.NET and Multi2k.NET.
Nothing is something, and something is then nothing. Life is an illusion.
astranominoff
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Posted: 23rd Feb 2003 22:25
Kanzure
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Posted: 24th Feb 2003 00:14


Your session has timed out after a period of inactivity. Please return to the Store Menu to continue shopping.



....Yes, very pricey indeed

~Morph
Owner of MultiCode.NET and Multi2k.NET.
Nothing is something, and something is then nothing. Life is an illusion.
Shadow Robert
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Posted: 24th Feb 2003 00:58
hehee... i've noticed that over the past few years actually - Linux has been gradually getting a more Windows style, and yet AmigaOS seems to be vearing away from it.

Personally i can't wait for next March cause they're to unveil AmigaOS 6 (no name yet) ... been beta testing that as well as Windows .Net - the features in the new AmigaOS aren't actually all that far behind Windows, and the 100% comptibility with Amiga, Unix, MacOS and Windows .Net software, certainly bodes very well in my eyes

They have a new thing called Widgy (god knows where the name came from), but at first glance he looks like an annoying helper bot - akin to that damn'd paperclip i'm sure most want to shoot

Cept he does all of the cool operations, like when you have a virus alert rather than being told about it - you'll see him get a Hazmat Suit and grabs your pointer.
You wait a few seconds and you get a small virus screen up where he goes and repairs the files infected

i mean you can turn him off, but he'll remind you of appointments - how long you've been online - possible problems if you install software ... all mannor of cool things
he's probably gonna be changing to a bar or some rollout menu when something happens, but for now its cool haveing a desktop assistant like that

Tsu'va Oni Ni Jyuuko Fiori Sei Tau!
One block follows the suit ... the whole suit of blocks is the path ... what have you found?
Rob K
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Posted: 24th Feb 2003 01:50
Windows .NET uggh!

At first I thought it was a good idea and then I actually learnt more and the whole architecture of the thing is a bit well... messy.

Windows is currently horrible to develop for - bad memory setup, lack of flexibility, poor documentation in some areas, pathetic API etc. but the developability of a platform doesn't always give it its popularity - hence the PS2 is the most popular platform because of its huge user base even though it is hard to develop for. On the other hand Windows works with almost all hardware and the developers don't have to worry about that - swings and roundabouts.

Personally I think the ultimate OS would be:

NT Kernel (The CORE kernel only, not all the multimedia bloat that MS stuffed into it) but with Unix memory management and Linux coding quality

MacOS X GUI with OpenGL as the default graphics standard

Microsoft HAL

A combination of the NT and Unix security systems - NT flexibility plus Unix simplicity

NOBODY has a forum name as stupid as Darth Shader. I do.
Kanzure
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Posted: 24th Feb 2003 02:07
Whats so bad about .NET?

~Morph
Owner of MultiCode.NET and Multi2k.NET.
Nothing is something, and something is then nothing. Life is an illusion.
indi
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Posted: 24th Feb 2003 03:38
morph OSX is a full linux distro on a more powerfull platform.

time to hang your ignorant boots foo

Shadow Robert
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Posted: 24th Feb 2003 06:33
i think that Shader doesn't like the fact that the system is currently being developed as an upgrade to Windows XP system ...
however the core is being completely redeveloped, what is available right now are just test versions of the features they wish to impliment. So its more like Windows XP SE as it were rather than Windows .Net

Personally i feel that really the only thing truely wrong with windows is the memory management system, and taking a more Amiga approach would be far better than either Unix or MacOS ... however the current MacOS is based heavily underneath on older Workbenchs.

Always found that developing for the other platforms, other than Windows have been a task and a half - simply because they're isn't even close to the same support or community understanding of them. (^_^)

Tsu'va Oni Ni Jyuuko Fiori Sei Tau!
One block follows the suit ... the whole suit of blocks is the path ... what have you found?
Rob K
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Posted: 24th Feb 2003 17:29
"other than Windows have been a task and a half "

That depends on the task in question... reading Mark Sibly's worklogs on development of the BlitzMAX compilers for the various OSes (it works on Linux, MacOS and Windows) proved interesting reading in this respect.

NOBODY has a forum name as stupid as Darth Shader. I do.
Jadelion
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Posted: 26th Feb 2003 07:07
since Bill Gates resigned as CEO of Microsoft like last year, I don't think he's worth assassinating. (unless you could do it and walk away with all his money)

...that move was indeed...Bold.
indi
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Posted: 26th Feb 2003 07:24
Its been years since Mark has mentioned stuff for the mac.
when i quiz him if its going to use game sprockets for Oses previous to OSX or OSx Carbon his minions have NFI.

I doubt with the amount of animosity from pc luzas on macs that it will ever take off.

Steve jobs first wrote the NExtStep OS which is still around today amd it was the basis for OSX.
He gleaned it from other linux unix distros.

METAL is the current alternative as well as realbasic and TNTbasic for the mac.

theres also Code warrior if u want to explore C/C++ with a great exportation feature to other languages.

in a pc the stdlib.h would just have another name like sioux.h

ITs all the same except when u program resources for the mac which can be in another editor like a hex editor.
icons and graphical components are placed into locations and used by the program.

METAL is free so I doubt anyone would prefer a pc programmers platform extension to a mac coders application.

linux has been rewritten so many times.

most of the networking u so dearly cherish on the pc is a BSD variant bastardised by MS.

check it out for yourself if u wish.

unix has been around since the 60's

Did u forget about Robert Morris Junior?

He was a son of a famous unix programmer who created one of the first internet worms.

The Xwindows system came a lot after that but in its first inceptions it was more like xtree-gold if any of you were around then.

If u type mc which means midnight commander on your cmd line in linux u might see a xtree gold interface appear, its a lot easier to use sometimes.

The problem with xwindows at the start was the amount of data it chewed up if being used by a terminal away from the mainframe and it was really hard to configure.

text based guis were bigger back then but they were on the same principals.

Ive used MACHTEN4.2 which is a unix distro that fits inside the mac os operating system. You dont need to restart into linux like u would on a pc. You can use them at the same time. You dont need xwindows for this version since the MacOS handles this for you.

dont be ignorant and post nonsense u gleaned from a cereal packet. go do some research and find out what really happended.

Shadow Robert
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Posted: 26th Feb 2003 08:48
i always liked XTree Gold
kinda became the basis behind the File Manager (which is still available even on XP for those who miss Win 3.x)

as for languages, PureBasic also does multiple OSs - but then you can't beat C for being totally universal
plonk in your OS .h and you can code for it, obviously a lil more complex than that but its the general idea. (^_^)

Tsu'va Oni Ni Jyuuko Fiori Sei Tau!
One block follows the suit ... the whole suit of blocks is the path ... what have you found?
indi
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Posted: 26th Feb 2003 13:24
yeah i was fond of xtree also.

unfortunatley it doesnt work like that.
Mac C and Mac C++ are different to pcs as pc can deploy OpenGL and directX.

The resources area is a completely different game in macs.
basically u use a gui to put this part together and very little coding is invloved in this process.

Mac as u know is OPenGL only but and theres more than flavour of OS to write for nowadays.

U can use a unix like enviroment in OSx or the traditional methods in 9.2 and below right back down to Os 7.5.2

Not to mention the game sprockets access.
game sprockets are like DLLS u drop them into your extensions folder and now u can access the math libs or I/O streams yet u dont need to use them all just the ones u want.

Like DirectX but broken down into usefull single components.

The basis to the C syntax isnt altered tho.
Its what it connects to to perform the I/O's thats different.

A rom in a mac is upto 4 megs and packed with great features.

I cant say the same for BIOS.

Xlimun
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Posted: 27th Feb 2003 19:49
READ: This affects EVERYONE (long, but a good read)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Windows Palladium, the end of privacy as we know it
By: Neko
This taken from various sources encluding UHA and deviantart, the register and slashdot., Disturbing news..

Earlier this week, Microsoft outlined their plans for their next generation of operting systems, codenamed Longhorn/ Palladium. Among the features touted was the "secure networking" functions that OS would offer.

Firstly:
Microsoft plans to implement Palladium DRM (digital rights management) in a hardware chip, initially implanted on the mobo, but later on embedded in the CPU, and employing hardwired encryption throughout. The purpose of this is to flag every file on the computer with a digital signature telling a remote server what it is. If it's an unauthorised file, the remote server will tell your computer not to let you execute it.

This is basically an attempt to stop the trading of mp3's and/or warez.

Secondly:
Before an application can run, it too must have a digital signature remotely verified by another server. If the program binary doesn't match with any of the authenticated binaries, your computer won't run it. This, again, is meant to stop your computer running "unauthorised" software - which might be warez, or it might just be a nifty freewrae program that the authors acn't afford to have certified. Microsoft will be able to control exactly what your computer can and can't run.

Thirdly:
As most of you know, Microsoft employ a strategy of making their software deliberately obsolete - they make it forwrd compatible, but not backward compatible. With the laws of the DMCA, it will soon be illegal to try to make a software product that is compatible with another programs file types (for example, take the many office applications there are for Linux which have had some success in translating their arcane file formats).
This has the effect of killing any competition in the water - since you're not allowed to make your new product compatible with any of the others, no-one will use it. And eventually people will give up using any of the others instead, since no-one else can read their documents. So the entire world will be left with one choice only for software - Microsoft.

Fourthly (I don't know if that's a word, but it should be):
Palladium will effectively ban free software, not just free stuff for Windows platforms, but free stuff for Linux, Mac, in fact every OS that runs on a Palladium enabled motherboard/ processor. Why?
In order to get the program to run on a palladium platform, you will need to pay to have your binary certified as "safe" by Microsoft's software authentification branch. And who in their right mind is going to pay for a piece of software they spent hours working on? It just wouldn't be worth it.

It gets worse when it comes to open source projects, such as Linux and BSD. Those of you who know about these things will know that open source projects are created by freelance coders all over the world who create programs in their spare time and then give them to the rest of the world for free. Many of them also release the source code for free too, so that if you wish you can alter the program (such as to fix bugs, add features etc).
Now, it would be bad enough if the owner has to pay a certification fee. But EVERY CHANGE that is made to the source code will require a new, seperate certificate to be created. Those of you who use Linux will know that so many things get updated so quickly, that this just isn't practical, and would cost the open source developement people millions of dollars. This is money they just don't have, and Microsoft knows it.

Fifthly:
The "secure network". This is the real clincher for Palladium. At first, they're going to make it so that it is possible to turn Palladium off at the hardware level. But it is created in such a way so that, if you try to connect to a Palladium web server, you won't be allowed to. Palladium machines will only be able to talk to other Palladium machines, and non-Palladium machines won't be able to talk to any Palladium machines.
Hence, if Palladium reaches critical mass, there will be thousands of people the world over who won't be able to access the internet or even work on a network with Palladium machines, so by extension they will be forced to "upgrade" to Palladium machines.

Sixthly:
At first I thought: what the hell, this is only going to apply to x86 architecture (namely Athlon and Pentium chips, since it's only AMD and Intel who are involved at the moment). So, I could try another hardware architecture: such as the Mac/PPC, or the Sun Sparc, or an ARM, or any other kind of processor.
But then I realside that even if I did, I wouldn't be able to access the "Palladium network" which could encompass the entire internet if this concept goes far enough. So all you Mac users would be effectively locked out; you too would have adopt a Palladium machine if you wanted your computer to actually do anything.

Seventhly:
Palladium will enable all your documents to be controlled remotely. No, this is not a joke. If Microsoft find you are using an outdated version of Office, all they need to do is send a message to your computer and it will no longer let you read any of your documents that were created with that application.
Even more sinister is that if Microsoft take offence at any of the documents on your machine (this could be porn, it could be a simple document containing DeCSS information or anti- Palladium information) then they can delete or alter it not just from your PC but from every other Palladium PC on the network.
This has a remarkable similarity to the "Ministry of Truth" in George Orwell's "1984" where the government continually faked information, both new and old, the entire country over to make themsleves appear "correct" all the time.


If Palladium ever becomes widespread enough, the internet as we know it today will be dead. Instead of being controlled by us, it will be controlled by Microsoft, and you will have no choice to do exectly what they say.

Hence why I want to tell as many people about this atrocious idea before it become spopular, and M$ administer their miraculous spin to it to make it sound like the best thing since sliced bread.


Darn, I forgot to post the links explaining about it. I'll also put up a few emails from some mailing lists me and my friends are members of.

Initial outline of Palladium [link]

Analysis on how Palladium is solely designed to protect IT businesses such as Microsoft [link]

The Palladium FAQ [link]

How Palladium has the potential to eradicate Linux [link]

======================================

The following is an excerpt from an email by "Lucky Green" one of the worlds most renowned cryptography hackers:

[Minor plug: I am scheduled to give a talk on TCPA at this year's DEF CON security conference. I promise it will be an interesting talk. [link] ]

Below are two more additional TCPA plays that I am in a position to mention:

1) Permanently lock out competitors from your file formats.

- From Steven Levy's article:
"A more interesting possibility is that Palladium could help introduce DRM to business and just plain people. It's a funny thing," says Bill Gates. "We came at this thinking about music, but then we realized that e-mail and documents were far more interesting domains."

Here it is why it is a more interesting possibility to Microsoft for Palladium to help introduce DRM to business and "just plain people" than to solely utilize DRM to prevent copying of digital entertainment content:

It is true that Microsoft, Intel, and other key TCPA members consider DRM an enabler of the PC as the hub of the future home entertainment network. As Ross pointed out, by adding DRM to the platform, Microsoft
and Intel, are able to grow the market for the platform.

However, this alone does little to enhance Microsoft's already sizable existing core business. As Bill Gates stated, Microsoft plans to wrap their entire set of file formats with DRM. How does this help Microsoft's core business? Very simple: enabling DRM for MS Word
documents makes it illegal under the DMCA to create competing software that can read or otherwise process the application's file format without the application vendor's permission.

Future maintainers of open source office suites will be faced with a very simple choice: don't enable the software to read Microsoft's file formats or go to jail. Anyone who doubts that such a thing could happen
is encouraged to familiarize themselves with the case of Dmitry Skylarov, who was arrested after last year's DEF CON conference for creating software that permitted processing of a DRM- wrapped document
file format.

Permanently locking out competition is a feature that of course does not just appeal to Microsoft alone. A great many dominant application vendors are looking forward to locking out their competition. The beauty of this play is that the application vendors themselves never need to make that call to the FBI themselves and incur the resultant backlash from the public that Adobe experienced in the Skylarov case. The content
providers or some of those utilizing the ubiquitously supported DRM features will eagerly make that call instead.

In one fell swoop, application vendors, such as Microsoft and many others, create a situation in which the full force of the U.S. judicial system can be brought to bear on anyone attempting to compete with a
dominant application vendor. This is one of the several ways in which TCPA enables stifling competition.

The above is one of the near to medium objectives the TCPA helps meet. [The short-term core application objective is of course to ensure payment for any and all copies of your application out there]. Below is a mid to long term objective:

2) Lock documents to application licensing

As the Levy article mentions, Palladium will permit the creation of documents with a given lifetime. This feature by necessity requires a secure clock, not just at the desktop of the creator of the document, but also on the desktops of all parties that might in the future read
such documents. Since PC's do not ship with secure clocks that the owner of the PC is unable to alter and since the TCPA's specs do not mandate such an expensive hardware solution, any implementation of limited lifetime documents must by necessity obtain the time elsewhere. The obvious source for secure time is a TPM authenticated time server that distributes the time over the Internet.

In other words, Palladium and other TCPA-based applications will require at least occasional Internet access to operate. It is during such mandatory Internet access that licensing-related information will be pushed to the desktop. One such set of information would be blacklists of widely-distributed pirated copies of application software (you don't need TCPA for this feature if the user downloads and installs periodic software updates, but the user may choose to live with
application bugs that are fixed in the update rather than see her unpaid software disabled).

With TCPA and DRM on all documents, the application vendor's powers increase vastly: the application vendor can now not just invalidate copies of applications for failure to pay ongoing licensing fees, but can invalidate all documents that were ever created with the help of
this application. Regardless how widely the documents may have been distributed or on who's computer the documents may reside at present.

Furthermore, this feature enables world-wide remote invalidation of a document file for reasons other than failure to pay ongoing licensing fees to the application vendor. To give just one example, documents can
be remotely invalidated pursuant to a court order, as might be given if the author of the document were to distribute DeCSS v3 or Scientology scriptures in the future DRM protected format. All that is required to
perform such an administrative invalidation of a document is either a sample copy of the document from which one can obtain its globally unique ID, the serial number of the application that created the document, or the public key of the person who licensed the application. (Other ways to exist but are omitted in the interest of brevity).
--------------------------------------------------------------- ---------------------

There it is. Long, but read it all. You're going to want this information.


IP:

Try not to become a man of success, but rather try to become a man of value.
--Albert Einstein
indi
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Posted: 28th Feb 2003 02:13
its only one platform granted its the most used one but its only one.

Xlimun
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Posted: 1st Mar 2003 02:20
So, everyone start installing Linux/Unix right?

Try not to become a man of success, but rather try to become a man of value.
--Albert Einstein
Richard Davey
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Posted: 1st Mar 2003 14:51
Linux is for people for who time doesn't equate to money.

Personally I have better things to do that arse around with an OS designed for server use, not Desktop, with a limited range of software that doesn't cover 80% of what I need it to do daily. What do I do - move to Linux and then wait for Adobe to port over Photoshop? or run it in some hybrid virtual machine/emulation package which begs the question - what's the bloody point?!

You can be as anti-MS as you like, but when that starts turning into anti-common sense it's then I have a problem with it.

"Gentlemen, we are about to short-circuit the Universe!"
DB Team / Atari ST / DarkForge / Retro Gaming
Xlimun
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Posted: 3rd Mar 2003 16:31
That's the best damn argument or MS i have ever heard!

Try not to become a man of success, but rather try to become a man of value.
--Albert Einstein
actarus
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Posted: 3rd Mar 2003 16:46
-but when that starts turning into anti-common sense it's then I have a problem with it.


heh

Just remember that you're standing on a planet that's evolving
And revolving at nine hundred miles an hour!
Kanzure
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Posted: 6th Mar 2003 03:19
Holly..Glad I read that.

Thats (as one of my teacher says,) "bullwhip".. I don't believe MicroSoft can even do that, isn't that violating personal "computer freedom"? If this happens, there will be almost no development, except through Visual C++, Visual Basic and only other common Microsoft Languages. This is wrong. If this takes place, Microsoft may get corrupted at one point - giving a person accsess to all computer in the world..


Hmm.. Cool! Better look into the design specks of it as it develops, then hehe...

~Morph
Owner of MultiCode.NET and Multi2k.NET.
Nothing is something, and something is then nothing. Life is an illusion.
Shadow Robert
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Posted: 6th Mar 2003 14:31
Xlimun ... i'd look into AMD's comments on what Microsoft proposed - as that proposal for .Net was almost a year ago and has since been scrapped as a waste of time.

Why? Simply because AMD would not agree to Licence fee along with some lengthy R&D to have thier processors to use Windows. And Intel knew that if they did this on thier own with Microsoft, both of them are currently in a very loosing position on the money front ... infact within Microsofts constant bail-outs we wouldn't even have Intel around still, atleast not as some form of competitor to AMD.

So what Microsoft are trying to do right now is try to have this placed within the Motherboard Chipset/Bios - yet personally i'm not to sure they'll ever do that either.

The main problem will be is that although Windows is like the "main" OS used... no business or adverage man will purchase a brand new system just to run the bloody, so unless they can sort something out now so that it'll be common place in 2-3year time when they release, it just ain't gonna happen.

Even know everyone is very skittish about taking away the ability for people to pirate, in theory its a good idea - but in practise most people will stick with XP/2000 because most people can't afford to buy all the software they do.

So either, this will become a doomed product (with Microsoft in thier present state they can't afford for the next Windows to fail) or the US Government will create a kinda Oftel company but for software to make sure that we're not over charged now that we can't pirate

either way this is gonna be a bloody length and risky process for Microsoft to go down ... but that said i don't bloody care if they do impliment it, don't use software which isn't legal and registered anyways

Tsu'va Oni Ni Jyuuko Fiori Sei Tau!
One block follows the suit ... the whole suit of blocks is the path ... what have you found?
Kanzure
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Posted: 6th Mar 2003 15:07
Microsoft? Going down? YAYY!! I mean, boo.. But still, thats a wishful thought. I bet the next Windows will probably only have those .NET features to intergrate all products and stuff.

But..What if Microsoft came out with a trap? IE: Windows XP SE that autoupdated itself with .NET software and such, and then we had to buy every update for everything? That would still be offoul. Thats why I stick with Windows 98. Heck, it may be unstable, but it sure is the most trust worthy Windows I've ever used.

~Morph
Owner of MultiCode.NET and Multi2k.NET.
Nothing is something, and something is then nothing. Life is an illusion.

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