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FPSC Classic Product Chat / Just another framerate thread.

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Oswald
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Posted: 7th Nov 2005 19:57
Well, okay... I read other threads reporting slow framerates.... but no suggestions made there help in any way.
I have three machine for testing.... all machines run Win XP, DX 9c, are equipped with ATI 9800 XT cards and run the newest catalyst drivers. Processors are 1.8 Ghz Athlon, 2.26 Ghz P4 and 2.4 Ghz P4.
Ram always 512 MB.
But fluent gameplay isn't possible on any of these machines.
Turning around goes very fast and fluent... but as soon as I move the player into any direction, framerates drop to "unplayable".
Movement is stuttering badly.. and with badly I mean really unusable-badly... when moving, sceen gets refreshed like once per second.. sometimes slower, sometimes a bit faster.... and sometimes I can even do two full steps without to bad stuttering.
Can't be that I need to get a 64 Bit 4 Ghz machine with crossfire graphics to run a FPSC game with a decent framerate!?
If anyone was able to run the overlander demo at continously >30 fps, please give me your PC-config.
I really hope the riker 9 project will upgrade the gameengine to an usable state.
Till now, the editor is the only usable part... the game-engine is far to slwo to share any finished game... as no normal user will have an machine that allows a fluent gameplay.
But maybe someone has some tweaks... hey.. or maybe all my computers are just crap.. who knows!?
Merranvo
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Posted: 7th Nov 2005 21:45
Looks at the title...

Do we really need another?

Your mod has been erased by a signature.

=ChrisB=: I hate n00bs, n00bs hate me! Lets get a gun and kill all the n00bies!!!
Oswald
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Posted: 7th Nov 2005 22:48
Well, yes... cause I really think it sux, releasing a game-system that promises to work on a P3 1Ghz.... but does not even run acceptable on a P4 2.4 Ghz.
I tested it on a P3 and it is simply UNUSABLE... editor and created games.
So I'm pretty much pissed about the fact, that you can't play created games on a normal (not high end) machine.
I can play Battlefield 2 fluently on my machines in high resolutions... but not the simple demomaps of FPSC.... Come on.. that's not how it should be.
Right now it is a nice (but slow) editor that creates unplayable games....
Again... a nice idea with a bad finish....
Merranvo
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Posted: 7th Nov 2005 22:53
The games work fine.

You just are building levels poorly. Use less objects in a single area. And don't use a lot of light mapping.

But everyone KNOWS about the frame rate issues. This is a horribly annoying topic to just post because you're bored.

Your mod has been erased by a signature.

=ChrisB=: I hate n00bs, n00bs hate me! Lets get a gun and kill all the n00bies!!!
Oswald
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Posted: 7th Nov 2005 23:55
What is that for a FPS creator that restricts you to building one small square room attached to another small square room... and all seperated with doors.. and if possible without any objects in it.
I tried all demomaps.. that are really not very complicated or have many objects in them... and none of them ran fluent.... it's like playing doom1 on a 386 with S3 graphics... but even that was more playable....
If Riker 9 really keeps what it is promising, it will proof that the current FPSC is very badly programmed and unoptimized.... With the current speed issues, the FPSC should not have been sold... the 3D engine is not even fast/optimized enough to be concidered "beta"...
FPSC creates Quake-like graphics but with the need for an High end system.. while quake runs fine on a P 60 with an ATI rage...
So, whatever.... I'm pissed and you are annoyed... both conditions will not change FPSC to a better state.
Anyway, some portions of the FPSC need work, to get a playable result...
Harry Harrison
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Posted: 7th Nov 2005 23:57
Like Merranvo said.. if your levels are that unplayable then it is simply poor level design. It has nothing to do with your machine specs. I was in your shoes and cursed FPSC for being so slow... but i learned the hard way. If you get really low framrates in certain areas and looking into certain directions then the game engine is trying to render too many polygons from that view point. You can see how many polygons are being rendered at any point during the "test" by looking at the first number from the left that is displayed on the bottem of the screen. For instance "P:52,847". You must always limit how much you can see at any one point during a level.. Also try using a limited number of dynamic objects. Objects that you will have no interactions with during gameplay should always be in static mode..

Also try to limit the size of rooms and always link rooms by long corridors and doors.. windows and doors have to be smartly placed due to the fact that you can look through them.. so always limit the amount you can see by looking through a door or window.

If by any chance the extremely low frame rates you are experienceing occurs even in a small room with no windows and a very small amount of entities then this is caused by portal leaks in the engine(i have had this problem sometimes).. which has been confirmed to be a bug i beleive. Only way to fix this is by rebuilding the room

But yes, FPSC is very slow in it's current state.. there is no doubts about that. That is why we all hope Riker 9 will improve it's performance.

HH
Daniel Silverman
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Posted: 8th Nov 2005 01:40
I see a lot of people (in these kinds of threads) blaming people's level designs when most of the blame needs to be put squarely on FPS Creator itself. The engine is slow and there is no debating that. The example games/levels that come with FPS Creator run slow and, frankly, they are very deviod of any detail. Basic levels (and I mean BASIC ... as in "with very few objects") still run fairly slow.

FPS Creator has a lot of potential and it is a great deal of fun (which is why I bought it ... it is fun ), but the engine is slow. I think we would all do a lot better if stopped defending FPS Creator no matter what. The low FPS is not causes by poor level design (for the most part). And, frankly, I wouldn't want levels that look like they are virtually empty either (i.e. "built right" for FPS Creator in order to get a decent frame rate).

Oh, in case you think I am just talking off the top of my head, I own a company that creates real-time 3D content (models and levels). It is my business. Like I said, I own FPS Creator because the tool is fun to play with, but the engine is slow even with properly built levels.
uman
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Posted: 8th Nov 2005 01:48 Edited at: 8th Nov 2005 02:11
Quote: "If you get really low framrates in certain areas and looking into certain directions then the game engine is trying to render too many polygons from that view point. You can see how many polygons are being rendered at any point during the "test" by looking at the first number from the left that is displayed on the bottem of the screen."


Correct - this can be because FPSC sometimes appears to calculate polygon counts incorrectly and is one of the reasons that slowdowns occur when they should not.

There is no such thing as a leak in FPSC levels - though this effect could be described as such as the effect is similar to bsp engines where leaks do occur - in the same fashion as with bsp leaks the problem can be cured where such slowdowns occur I have found by looking to see if you can ascertain why and what mught cause a "leak" to occur and encompassing the offending area with a surronding completely closed and sealed outer room structure.

Some things which I have found and others have reported that cause slowdowns (reduced fps) are default ducts and corridors and also walls and such like inserted as static entities (FPSC reads through them) and not as segments. If you have any of these in slow areas - enclose them in an outer envelop of standard rooms segments and although technically you will have more walls to calculate the fps should go back to a stable 30/32 fps. It does with me.

The excessive polygon counts are seen by FPSC it seems when polygons even around corners and way out of sight are calculated by FPSC tracing and calculating polygons it sees as in view - via any unblocked or sealed route. This means that its particularly difficult to achieve a workaround in outdoor levels where FPSC could concieveably calculate every polygon in the level from any offending position.

FPSC V1 as with EA is still cabable of calculating widely varying and erratic polygon counts - i.e. from one part of a level x ploys and from another where you may think there is much less in view (and there is) a much greater number of polys.

Who knows exactly why this occurs/I doubt anyone knows the answer.

In indoor areas you can certainly have what could be described as very large open rooms with much content and action going on as long as you follow the above guidlines and close off any apparent leaks that crop up. In outdoor areas the answer seems to be much trial and error to get stability of fps - whether or not you have a great deal in view is not always the defining cause or answer due to the nature of the way FPSC seemingly erractically calculates what actually can be seen. Certainly it does not always see what you as the player sees in its polygon calculations so you have to go with the numbers it returns and try to workaround problem areas.

Everyone is aware that FPSC could do with some help in the area of fps and the erratic poly counts that can crop up that drag the game seemingly unecessarily in certain locations can be a level killer. In outdoor levels designing them out can be successful - occasionally - it wont work so you are stuck with no option but to try removing content, but be warned these areas can move around as you remove and build elsewhere so you could end up going around in circles, rather frustratingly.

An example of one form of this erratic behaviour is a City level I have where when looking directly at a single wall close up with nothing else in view at one side of the level I have unacceptably slow fps (14fps) when I cant see anything else - just the bricks in front of me. On a rooftop with most of the level and polys in view from above I have perfectly acceptable frame rates - If I add a couple of roof segments to a flat topped building in view the fps drops dramatically by around 9 fps and thats a lot when an engine has nominal fps at the best of times.

In outdoor levels the further you move from the centre of the world towards the extremities the greater the chance of high poly counts and slowdowns.

Thats what I have found anyway - hope that helps someone a little.

I would very much agree with Daniel Silverman whos opinion I respect very much.

transient
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Posted: 8th Nov 2005 03:49
More moaning and groaning.

FPSC costs 50 bucks. If you want doom 3 pay the half a million dollar license and stay away from FPSC and these forums, please.

Maybe we need a whiners forum, so that aspiring Carmacks can have a whinge without bothering the majority of happy users.

instinct is more valuable than intelligence.....
kraM
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Posted: 8th Nov 2005 05:09
Quote: "FPSC costs 50 bucks. If you want doom 3 pay the half a million dollar license"


Nuff Said...


Mark

If not for physics and law enforcement, I'd be unstoppable!
uman
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Posted: 8th Nov 2005 05:24
Quote: "If you want doom 3 pay the half a million dollar license and stay away from FPSC and these forums, please."


Thats just such a ridiculous statement.

transient
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Posted: 8th Nov 2005 08:57
I'm sorry you feel that way.

To be honest I didn't read your essay, though. When posts get more than a paragraph or two I tend to nod off.

instinct is more valuable than intelligence.....
Benjamin A
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Posted: 8th Nov 2005 09:45
Quote: "FPSC costs 50 bucks. If you want doom 3 pay the half a million dollar license and stay away from FPSC and these forums, please."


Hang on, the price isn't the issue at all. I don't care what something cost, it still needs to be a decent product. FPSC is very cool, but it does have some major problems. Features that aren't working, bugs and slow fps at times. That has nothing to do with the price at all. We're lucky to pay $50 only for it, considering the time it took to develop this excellent tool.

The slow framerates do exsist even with perfect level build and they're due to an error in the engine. I did get the same problem as others. Standing in a completely sealed of small room, with nothing in it and yet getting even as low as 1pfs! That isn't poor level design, that is an error in the engine.

FYI, the whole map runs fine at 27-32fps all the time, even though it's large, so level design isn't the problem. It just happened that in one of the rooms the fps dropped very low for no reason at all. I decided to rebuild that part of the map and get rid of the room and replace it with some corridors and now the whole map runs fine.

Did I make an map design error in that particular part? No, a 3x3 cell room (2levels high) with 2 doors in it and only 2 small corridors behind the door that seal of entrance to the next room, isn't a mistake at all.

You can create fast running games with FPSC if you adhere to proper map design, but that isn't the complete safeguard against the error that lurks in the engine itself. If that one comes up there's only one solution, rebuild the part of the map were it appears and you're map should be fine again.

I seriously doubt that higher framerates will take care of this, it's in the engine itself, it just goes bezerk for some reason.....

FPSC is way to cool, you can create even more then a fps with it!
Sunflash
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Posted: 8th Nov 2005 10:00
You know, I found that whenever I want to run FPSC, I have to turn off all my virus scan and other progrmas that work in the background. or course my processor is only 1.3 GHz.

When FPSC gets good enough, lets make a Redwall game!

transient
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Posted: 8th Nov 2005 12:01
It seems you and Oswald are having issues with FPSC that I haven't encountered.

If you're really not happy with it, maybe TGC will organise some kind of refund.

Just try to understand that it's getting a bit annoying to have the same complaints being aired all the time. This has been covered before.

instinct is more valuable than intelligence.....
Benjamin A
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Posted: 8th Nov 2005 12:07
Quote: "If anyone was able to run the overlander demo at continously >30 fps, please give me your PC-config."


I'm not saying it ran over 30 fps all the time (not even sure how to measure it in a build game), but it did run very smooth on my pc. It's the best running game I've seen until now. No annoying slow downs at all.

My setup is: AMD Athlon 2400+ (2Ghz), 1Gb Ram, Radeon 9600 Pro EZ 256Mb, WinXP Home SP1.

I'm not having many problems with FPSC at all, runs smoothly most of the time (except for the engine error as explained before).

Soon I'm going to test run my game on a number of other machines to see how it behaves on those.

FPSC is way to cool, you can create even more then a fps with it!
uman
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Posted: 8th Nov 2005 14:36
Quote: "It seems you and Oswald are having issues with FPSC that I haven't encountered.

If you're really not happy with it, maybe TGC will organise some kind of refund.

Just try to understand that it's getting a bit annoying to have the same complaints being aired all the time. This has been covered before."


Non of this has anything constructive to say or do with the subject of the thread or the issues involved. A subject and issue of some importance to serious game making.

bond1
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Posted: 8th Nov 2005 15:09
FYI:

I was able to run the Overlander demo great on two of my machines with pretty much no slowdown at all.

Desktop:
Athlon XP2400+, Radeon 9600, 1 gig ram
-slight slowdown when entering the large room with all the doors, hardly noticeable

Laptop:
Athlon 64 3000, mobile Radeon 9600, 768mb ram
-no slowdown at all
Cellbloc Studios
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Posted: 8th Nov 2005 15:26
Yes, I have the frame rates running at more than 30.

-This...is my boomstick!
Benjamin A
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Posted: 8th Nov 2005 16:47
How can I see the framerate while running the game?

FPSC is way to cool, you can create even more then a fps with it!
Chronosv2
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Posted: 8th Nov 2005 16:54
In Test Mode, at the bottom of the screen is a line of text. One of the items is F: --This is Frames Per Second, I believe.
Harry Harrison
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Posted: 8th Nov 2005 17:00 Edited at: 8th Nov 2005 17:01
@Bejamin A, i think you mean while playing a game build, right? well if so just use a program like Fraps..
http://www.fraps.com/download.php
the free trial lets you use it as long as you want with some features disabled. Also great for taking screenshots and video.
Evil Inside
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Posted: 8th Nov 2005 19:04
Harry Harrison - OUCH! YOUR AVATAR! OOO



Harry Harrison
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Posted: 8th Nov 2005 19:53 Edited at: 8th Nov 2005 19:59
Evil Inside, say hello to AfroNinja!

by the way your avatar rocks! saw them live not to long ago.. AMAZING!!!


EDIT:
speaking of avatars.. and excuse me for going way off subject here but are their any posted guidlines for this forum on avatars? I have some avatars that i know many will enjoy but i dont want to get in "trouble" by a mod..
Benjamin A
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Posted: 8th Nov 2005 21:02
@Harry Harrison, thanks! Yes, I meant build games.

FPSC is way to cool, you can create even more then a fps with it!
Merranvo
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Posted: 8th Nov 2005 21:32
Press Tab.

Your mod has been erased by a signature.

=ChrisB=: I hate n00bs, n00bs hate me! Lets get a gun and kill all the n00bies!!!
Benjamin A
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Posted: 9th Nov 2005 00:04
Thanks, I didn't know that it worked in build games. Very cool, shows the fps in the top-left-corner.

Played the Overlander demo again and it runs over 30fps most of the time. In the largest room it goes down to 25fps. So, running smooth.

FPSC is way to cool, you can create even more then a fps with it!
Daniel Silverman
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Posted: 9th Nov 2005 00:15
Quote: "FPSC costs 50 bucks. If you want doom 3 pay the half a million dollar license and stay away from FPSC and these forums, please."


It is not the price of the tool. It is the fact that it has a problem with FPS in certain circumstances. This needs to be looked at and fixed if possible. No one was comparing FPS Creator with a modern AAA engine.

Quote: "Maybe we need a whiners forum, so that aspiring Carmacks can have a whinge without bothering the majority of happy users."


I don't believe anyone is whining. I believe people, who enjoy the product, would like to see it made better and for bugs to be fixed. Therefore they post what they post. It is pretty bad when a bug is mentioned and other users jump on them and call them whiners.

Quote: "If you're really not happy with it, maybe TGC will organise some kind of refund."


I don't see anyone here in this thread complaining or even acting like they want a refund (I know that I don't). Once again, there are people here (in this thread) that like the product and just want to see if made better and fixed. There is no reason to jump on people who are reporting their legitimate experiences with FPS Creator.
Daniel Silverman
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Posted: 9th Nov 2005 00:18
Quote: "If you're really not happy with it, maybe TGC will organise some kind of refund."


According to your system specs (posted above in this thread) you should maintain higher frame rates in the demo. I know FPS Creator is locked at around 30-33 FPS (not sure the exact number ... think it is 33) but I see no reason for you to dip down to 25 FPS. While 25 is certainly acceptable (in most cases) it is still, by today's standards, fairly slow.
wdc studios
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Posted: 9th Nov 2005 02:55 Edited at: 9th Nov 2005 03:00
It's kind of funny to me that when someone brings this up people point the finger at level deaign, I've made levels with only 4 or 5 enemies in a simple room now if thats too much somethings wrong and it isn't level design.
Merranvo
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Posted: 9th Nov 2005 23:58
Level design...

I have a rather Big Level, it is only 10 wide, but it covers the whole 40 tiles in length.

Now if I remove the Last Room, I get 26fps easy, but with the last room it drops down because of the amount of polys. 20fps. But it is also the less ability to deal with the polys that cause it.

Dynamic objects cause NO long range slowdowns, but they cause short range slowdowns.

Having a lot of static objects causes longrange slowdowns. Having a big level causes big slowdowns. But I don't care, as Long as I keep light maps off, my levels are playable (for me)

Your mod has been erased by a signature.

=ChrisB=: I hate n00bs, n00bs hate me! Lets get a gun and kill all the n00bies!!!
uman
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Posted: 10th Nov 2005 02:01 Edited at: 10th Nov 2005 02:04
All my levels tend to utilise the FPSC map area to the full. I only make large levels as the world size for each level is not that big, certainly not for outdoor maps.

I still have some work to do looking at optimising outdoor levels, though have been working recently on indoor levels where I am doing the same.

I am still working on the first real level of my game - its a big level and is not quite yet structurally complete. Thus far there are high numbers of everything in the level and still much more to include. I am trying to find out what the limits of design are - there now apparently being being no map object limits sice V1 in which Lee fixed that problem.

Thus far I can say that I have reached no limits while using the methods I described in my earlier post here. I have build out all falls in fps due to any kind of leak. Currently still maintaining a consistent fps of 30/31/32 fps anywhere in the map no matter what the complexity of the view - a small drop of around 2fps can be encountered when the player starts to walk around as FPSC tends to drop these when the player takes off but that picks up again and fluctuates at the said rates. If that can be maintained its well within playability.

Though the overall level is large and some individual room areas are large it is fairly well divided into sensible segmented areas and at least at present high concentrations of content distributed around the map dont seem to be having any adverse affect on other areas of the map.

I have a lot of content - entities and alike - texture count is well massive I gues you could say - still no slowdown at the moment.

Not sure how big the map will end up or how many objects in total of various kinds it will eventually contain - could be thousands if you include all level media and contruction content - and FPSC will sustain it. When I get to a limit I will know otherwise I will complete the level and you should get to see some of it at least in a demo - thats if anyone can wait to download it, or can play it - I have no idea wht the final file size will be as its not part of any calciulation I make when designing levels. If I can play it then thats what I design to.

Merranvo
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Posted: 10th Nov 2005 02:32
There are allways Map Limits... The array size limits them...

Your mod has been erased by a signature.

=ChrisB=: I hate n00bs, n00bs hate me! Lets get a gun and kill all the n00bies!!!
uman
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Posted: 10th Nov 2005 04:40
Well i'll let you know when the arrays are angry then

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