TGC Returns - GameCreators Forum

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Kenjar

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Posted: 16th Nov 2005 15:21

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Ok, this is the last post I'll make on the subject.

Evil Stick -

It just won't render wall textures when settings are set to dynamic light, 512x512 textures, lightmapping and when shaders are turned on. Entities appear just fine, but the walls aren't textured so transparent.

The other reason is that I've e-mailed support now first about the problem and have had no reply, even a "we're working on it" reply. Then three days ago I e-mailed support in reguards to return, an no one's bothered to get back to me. I've also suffered random crashes from the editor. I've done all the basic things, checked my hardware is compatible, disabled background programs, turned off virus checkers, spyware checkers. I'm not willing to wait for bug fixes that may never appear, to my mind FPSC is clearly still in it's BETA stages of development, I don't know what drove them to release it in it's current state, but these problems coupled with the lack of save game features, option menu features and having to "Hardcore" graphics settings in with each build. It's just not worth my time at the moment, perhaps when these bugs are fixed or version 2 of the software comes out I'll give it another go, but as it is, I think I'm better off sticking with DarkBASIC Professional and getting a copy of Cartography shop instead.

Don't get me wrong, if it wasn't for the bugs and crashes I'm experiancing I'd keep the product and wait for updates, but along with the crashes and bugs I don't just don't want to waste any more time with it. It does have the potental to become a truely impressive product, and when it is, I hope they will profit by it.

Run before you can walk, always raise the stakes higher, always keep moving, because you never know who's catching up.

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transient

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Posted: 16th Nov 2005 15:35

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It took the guy who wrote dbpro three years to make this "broken" (your opinion) software in dbpro.

If you can top this, I'd be impressed.

instinct is more valuable than intelligence.....

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Kenjar

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Location: TGC

Posted: 16th Nov 2005 16:08

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Four years I am told, and at the end of the day money is exchanging hands. In any other industry, if a product is sold before it's really ready and it failed to do something that it was clearly supposed too (say a washing machine says it comes with 10 washing cycle programs but in reality only 6 work, then people will want refunds. It's no good saying "oh when we fix it we'll send to an easy to install addon that will make it work".)

Given the state of the software, it would have been better for them to continue with the "early adopter" stuff. They might get a few sales to help support developement, and as more and more features and bugs are fixed it's likely more and more people would choose to take the earily adoption option and play around with it now.

A good example of this is cartography shop, they are offering 3D world builder which I will get with my next paycheque, and though it might be buggy because it's made very clear to me I won't be complaining about the state of the code, and lack of features. I don't mind buggy software if people are up-front with me. It's all this "the demo looks amazing, the basic features work well" but when you get into the offical version there are large gapping holes in the code, approches. It's like someone selling me a barrel of apples, letting me taste a few of the top ones, then lugging it home to discover the bottom apples are going rotten. Reguardless of how low the price is, the fact is I entered into a money based transaction, and kept my side by paying them. This software, for me, is too unstable, and doesn't do what it claims, so I want my cash back, and they will get the software back. Fair's, fair.

Run before you can walk, always raise the stakes higher, always keep moving, because you never know who's catching up.

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Oswald

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Posted: 16th Nov 2005 17:21

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You are right, Kenjar..... FPSC is a good program.... but not in its current Beta-stage, that it is definately still in.
And it doesn't matter how long they already worked on it.... it just wasn't ready when it was released.
And yeah... it is working for some of the users.. but for a lot of users it is not doing what it should do. I can't stand those unqulified posts (as seen in a lot of other threads) from guys who luckely have no problems with FPSC, telling everyone "hey, it works fine for me, so it should work fine for you, too" or "Stop those anoying bug reports as my version runs stable".
If Riker 9 doesn't change some of the big problems, I guess I gonna return my version, too.... it's a joke anyway, that they let someone from the user-community do their work of tweaking FPSC... they should pay Cellblock for that!
But honestly.... it was all my fault... after I bought T3GM a few years ago, I should have known that this product will suck, too....
Their description of T3GM did in no way match the real funktions and quality of the product. Guess I got tricked again by beliving their advertisement.
So TGC-team..... get DBP 5.9 out of Beta so that we finally get Riker 9.. hoping that this will end all the issues....

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Kenjar

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Posted: 16th Nov 2005 17:55

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I would wait, but I'm sure if I do I'll end up with the line "sorry the product is out of it's hotperiod we can't accept returns." besides there's always the danger that if I keep it until then it will get scratched or damaged so I can't return it. I know it's only like 29.99 but that's the price of a new game, or half the price of a copy of 3D World studio. I tell you one thing though, if they refuse to accept the return I'm selling all my darkbasic, the various DLL's I've bought, and moving over to Torque. I won't deal with a company that won't play fair. But there is no reason to think that I will have to do this, so far, in the past the TGC have been reasonable to deal with, dispite the lack of telephone call centers, but then most companies are goign that way anyway. I just wish they at least had a live chat option that companies like AOL, Sony and even microsoft use, it's only a php chat room thing so it's not very hard. Anyway wish me luck!

Run before you can walk, always raise the stakes higher, always keep moving, because you never know who's catching up.

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mrniceguy

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Posted: 16th Nov 2005 22:55

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Like Kenjar said, FPSC is a great program but is not a finished product. I agree that it shouldn't been released at this time.
There are too many missing features and unfinished work in it.
Fortunately Cellblock is so kind for releasing Riker 9 which fixes a lot of problems.
However that should be done by TGC and not by a paying customer.
I think FPSC has got a great future but if TGC doesn't support FPSC the customers will walk away eventually.

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snowdog

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Posted: 16th Nov 2005 23:50

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Welcome to the world of software development lads. Unfortunately, since internet use became widespread software released is never released as it should be. There will be a patch, and TGC have kindly released the source code for the engine so that DB Pro users can improve on the released product. Not many companies would do that, and we should be very grateful for it.

I was working in the industry for 7 months and fully understand the processes involved in releasing software including having to release software earlier than planned due to financial pressure from third parties. It's a fact of life in the industry, and you shouldn't be naive enough to expect a faultless product when buying software of any kind.

Games these days are a prime example. There isn't a single game that has been released without at least 1 Class A bug present. And there won't be one either.

And please keep your fingers crossed for me, I've got an interview with a leading games publisher (not FPSC related though!) in a couple of weeks!!!

Duncan Edwards is the one person who, even today, I really felt inferior to. I've never known anybody so gifted and strong and powerful with the presence that he had - Sir Bobby Charlton

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Kenjar

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Posted: 17th Nov 2005 00:58

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If at the end of the day, people stopped bending over and taking it, but instead returned the product, then these 3rd party publishing companies would think twice before putting on that kind of pressure.

Yes, I know just because "I" decide to return the product, it doesn't mean it would fix the problem, all I can do is return it and hope that other people do.

I am NOT in any way telling everyone to return the FPSC, there are plenty of people who are willing to wait for bug fixes. I am talking about the industry in general. Every time a game is returned they loose money, and that seems to be the only thing that people understand. There's no "Pride in doing things right" anymore, it's all about "At what stage can I get away with it".

I think I'll make a rule now, if the software don't do what it says it will do, and is unstable, I'll return it. Obviousally I don't mean Early Adopters versions, that's fair enough, the company was up front about it, and it's a much fairer way of dealing with people. Alot of users love to BETA test games, while some don't. I wonder if the way of the future will be allowing users to by a product in it's Beta stage but be up-front about it, then when it's ready release the final product with a bonus or two too those who supported the product in developement. I'd be quite happy to sign onto something like that, apart from anything else it would give the company early feedback so features can be tweaked according to user feedback.

Run before you can walk, always raise the stakes higher, always keep moving, because you never know who's catching up.

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transient

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Posted: 17th Nov 2005 01:56

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Nobody's bending over and taking anything around here, except heaps of childish complaints and excuses for not getting something done in FPSC.

I'd take this program with twice the bugs if it meant getting rid of half the whining (or all of it - what bliss).

No indi software is ever finished, it's just the nature of the scene. FPSC is much better than other alternatives in this regard.

Moving over to torque would be a mistake. If you don't have the temperment to put up with FPSC's irritations torque will drive you insane.

You've returned the software and registered your dissatisfaction, please stop trying to ruin the party for the happy customers like me.

instinct is more valuable than intelligence.....

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uman

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Posted: 17th Nov 2005 03:10

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Making statements about a piece of softwares condition has nothing to do with whining - it is what it is and you aint never going to stop game makers asking for something better - thats just wanting something thats never going to happen too.

If you could have users like that - all living in a everythings wonderful hunky dory world - it would not help software development or the games made with it or forums like this either, as there are very few serious game makers who would user the software - which is exactlty the kind of user FPSC was intended for I guess.

I dont know of any indie engine that has a forum where there are many happy chappies contently working away in a state of bliss with their development activities - if anyones in that state of mind then they are very lucky as they are the exception to the rule and I wish them continued happiness in their endeavours.

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transient

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Posted: 17th Nov 2005 03:35

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Most forums have this element, but not to the extent we're seeing here.

There's nothing wrong with asking for more, but there are too many people spamming these boards with this stuff.

And the whole disgruntled consumer thing is just nonsense. If you don't like the software contact TGC direct and get a refund.

It's not as bad as when DBPro came out, that was a bloodbath, but it's still worse than other forums I frequent.

I have no personal problem with you as at least you try to work out your issues in a reasonable way, and explain in depth about what you've done to try to fix them.

I agree that frank discussions are sometimes warranted and can be beneficial to the overall development process, especially with rational types like you and cellbloc.

However it's the "mummy I dropped my ice-cream " stuff which irritates me.

My opinions seem to be annoying you so this is the last time I'll post my gripes. I've been around the mod/indi scene for a while and maybe I'm a bit intolerant to this stuff.

instinct is more valuable than intelligence.....

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=ChrisB=

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Posted: 17th Nov 2005 05:37

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What is it with uman's smilies at the bottom?

Your signature has been erased by a mod

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uman

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Posted: 17th Nov 2005 05:41 Edited at: 17th Nov 2005 06:02

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The smilies mean I am not annoyed at all - thats why I am smiling.

Trying to balance the page with the one on the right hand side.

Anyway heres another for you

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Lon

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Posted: 17th Nov 2005 07:45

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FPSC is a wonderful tool. The open structure gives many possibilities for expression, however it's not perfect. This is the initial release, v1, and a person would have to be a complete imbecile to assume that it will remain in it's current form.

We can see it clearly, many folks on this board are very ambitious to create something with this product. I have faith that through Lee or somebody else (cellbloc) something will eventually transform this into what we want. paitence is the best answer. Let's just hope that the cards fall the right way and we get something soon.

Lon

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Kenjar

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Posted: 17th Nov 2005 10:35

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I agree FPSC is a wonderful tool, very easy to use and has depth and flexibility. Don't get me wrong, it's a great product, it's just that on my machine the editor isn't stable when creating large maps. When I export the level at full settings (shader, dynamic lights, light mapping, max resolutions on all) the wall textures vanish, leaving the entities on screen. I've contacted support, I was give mikes e-mail address, I sent an e-mail off, have not heard anything since and it's been about 7 days. So clearly the software isn't working, so I'm "trying" please note the "trying" because it's been 3 days since my e-mail asked for a refund and return details, to return the product. I'll use the money on something else for now, prob another TGC product like 3D World Studio EA version, or Cartography shop 4, and given them another year to get this program sorted out. As it is, I don't feel it's worth my time, and given the extent of the bugs in question I doubt Riker 9 will fix it for me.

Run before you can walk, always raise the stakes higher, always keep moving, because you never know who's catching up.

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Bored of the Rings

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Posted: 17th Nov 2005 13:46

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I believe you get what you pay for. Enough said.

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Kenjar

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Posted: 17th Nov 2005 19:28

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I beleive I didn't get what I paid for. Enough said.

Run before you can walk, always raise the stakes higher, always keep moving, because you never know who's catching up.

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Richard Davey

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Posted: 17th Nov 2005 21:04

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This is a hardware specific related issue, one of the most difficult to track down during development, and if the beta group didn't catch it (the settings you describe do actually work btw), then it's not until release we see it surfacing.

We do honour refund requests, there is no time period on it (within reason).

Mike is on holiday btw (and has been since the 10th). I hope when you say you've emailed support, you mean you've used the form on our site? (if so, it WILL get dealt with, if not - please do so, we do not respond to support *emails* and haven't done for nearly 2 years now).

Fat kids always win at see-saw.

The world is full of idiots. But an unusually high percentage seem to appear on my TV screen.

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Cellbloc Studios

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Posted: 17th Nov 2005 22:08

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Richard, you may want to re read that last line. It might confuse some people.

-This...is my boomstick!

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=ChrisB=

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Posted: 17th Nov 2005 23:06

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Quote: "The world is full of idiots. But an unusually high percentage seem to appear on my TV screen."

And even more appear on my computer screen

.

Quote: "Fat kids always win at see-saw.
"

Is that why my mom alwase won?

Your signature has been erased by a mod

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Kenjar

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Posted: 17th Nov 2005 23:46 Edited at: 17th Nov 2005 23:47

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Quote: "This is a hardware specific related issue, one of the most difficult to track down during development, and if the beta group didn't catch it (the settings you describe do actually work btw), then it's not until release we see it surfacing.

We do honour refund requests, there is no time period on it (within reason).

Mike is on holiday btw (and has been since the 10th). I hope when you say you've emailed support, you mean you've used the form on our site? (if so, it WILL get dealt with, if not - please do so, we do not respond to support *emails* and haven't done for nearly 2 years now).
"

I'm running an AMD 64 2800+ 754 pin CPU, a nVidia FX5200 128Mb card with 1Gb PC3200 Ram. The motherboard is a well known Gigabyte K8-NS brand, and the operating system is windows 2000 professional with all updates and service pack 4. I can understand that you can't test it on all the hardware other there, but as far as I know, mine isn't very offensive, I built the thing myself and designed it around that fact. I suppose it might be the new nVidia drivers or something but like I say I'm using pretty standard equipment. But anyway, you are right you can't test it with everything and I understand that.

As for Mike being away, no, no one told me that. I contacted support via the website, had an e-mail and checked the rely online. I was given Mikes e-mail and told to send it to him. That was 5 days ago. If he's away, fair enough, but I wasn't told until now.

It's good news that you do provide refunds, I'll give the company until next monday to rely to it. It might be useful having an online live support system if you don't have telephone support. It's well known that the long delays between e-mail and response is frustrating. Mind you, so's second rate call center operatives

so I guess it's trading one evil for another.

I'll return to the forum in a years time I think and ask how the software progressing, I like the idea of FPSC, but it's bugs render it unless at the moment, but that's life.

Run before you can walk, always raise the stakes higher, always keep moving, because you never know who's catching up.

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transient

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Posted: 18th Nov 2005 02:17

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Maybe it's important to realise that many companies don't give refunds for software at all, particularly when there's a demo or trial version, so maybe waiting a little while isn't such a bad thing.

instinct is more valuable than intelligence.....

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Kenjar

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Posted: 19th Nov 2005 18:34

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According to Trading laws and conventions, if a product fails to do what it claims, or fails to work in the correct way, they are obliged by law to accept the return and refund the customer for the product. This is why countries like the US and UK have trading standards commisions. If a company ever refuses outright to take the product back, without lawful cause, then it's breaking the law. That's what the small claims court is for.

If it's a DEMO or Trial version, then you're an idiot to have paid anything for it, if you mean, it's a peice of software that you registered with a key and turned it into a registered version, trading law still applies. If for instance, the trial version would not let to save the model because the option was disabled, but when you register the software, the save model format causes the software to crash, then you have good grounds for a refund.

But none of this apply's to the TGC, I finally got an e-mail detailing their return proceedures. It basically asks for a covering letter describing the problems with the product, and requires that the product is in a re-sellable condition. Obviousally if you've spilt coffee over it's manual, sandpapered the CD and allowed deeply disturbing things to happen to the case, then no one's going to give you your money back. If you've been careful with it, then there is no reason for any company not to accept the return.

Run before you can walk, always raise the stakes higher, always keep moving, because you never know who's catching up.

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Harry Harrison

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Posted: 19th Nov 2005 19:00

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Quote: "If it's a DEMO or Trial version, then you're an idiot to have paid anything for it, if you mean, it's a peice of software that you registered with a key and turned it into a registered version, trading law still applies."

I think he meant that the fact that a trial is available to try out and see if the program works well for you. Then if it doesn't dont buy the program. I'm not saying that this is what you should of done(i never tried the demo myself) just saying that I think thats what he meant.

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