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FPSC Classic Product Chat / When Free is not Free

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tschwarz
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Posted: 23rd Nov 2005 20:40
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I am confused with the word FREE as used on this forum.
So I looked up the Definition and it does not say anything
about conditions. So I propose we introduce a new word.

If something is released as free it should not have any
restrictions. A lot of people have released stuff saying
they are free but they are not. If you release something
and you want a credit listed, can't be used in commercial games,
or any other Restriction the word should be Freecon. "Pronounced Free-Kin"
Meaning "Free with Conditions"


The Definitions of free:
free from obligations or duties
complimentary: costing nothing; "complimentary tickets"; "free admission"
people who are free; "the home of the free and the brave"
Zero Restrictions


The Definitions of freeCon: "Pronounced Free-Kin"
No such thing as a free lunch
No monetary fee charged
Some Conditions apply
Some Restrictions apply
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Hobbit
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Posted: 23rd Nov 2005 20:56
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Some people actually take the time to give us these things. They have the right to put restrictions, cause just making one entity takes hours, they are kind enough to not charge at all.
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KeithC
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Posted: 23rd Nov 2005 21:50 Edited at: 23rd Nov 2005 22:06
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You know what man, now I'm irritated.......screw it. It's bad enough when I see people around here wanted all kinds of free stuff for nothing, but to actually look the gift horse in the mouth is just too much. Who do you think you are? Sure it only takes me 20 minutes to an hour for each model that I have made (with texture); but that is becasue I have spent the last year learning by trial and error, buying tutorials, scouring the internet. Do you realize that an average freelance artist can demand $20-$30 for one model...easily. That doesn't even buy you a good model that is unique for the customer only. Some artists are good enough to ask for hundreds of dollars AND $30 and up per hour of work!

I have been considering focusing on pay models recently, and that just made my decision for me.

All offerings of free models have been rescinded here and now.

-Keith

"Some people are only alive because it's illegal to kill them".
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tschwarz
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Posted: 23rd Nov 2005 22:12 Edited at: 23rd Nov 2005 22:31
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Wow man that's pretty harsh... Maybe you missed my point.

It was in no way directed at any single person but at a
single word.

and to be fair why not say:
All offerings of free models have been rescinded from me.


Who do I think I am? nobody, nothing, no ego here.

Edit:
I just noticed you edited your previous post. So now we need a new word. FreeVoked. free stuff that's been revoked.

Ok before you get upset (I'm sorry), come on that's funny.

I don't know why you are upset about this, I just looked for stuff you created and I didn't see anywhere you forced people to give you credit. That is free. You allow me to choose whether or not to create a credit screen. As long as I don't lie and say I created it. Which is not a requirement but a responsibility of freedom.

Sorry, didn't mean to ruffle your feathers.
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uman
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Posted: 24th Nov 2005 00:14 Edited at: 24th Nov 2005 00:16
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tschwarz,

Very interesting to read your overview definition of free and it is true to say that something is either free or not, free but with some restriction or not - call these what you like they are definitions which hold true. Nothing wrong with a statement that speaks the truth. Not that most users could not work it out for themeselves anyway.

As with most things at this forum and in life whatever you say - there will be people that wont like what you say and some that will - thats just the way of it.

As I dont make or give away stuff to others though I might if someone asked nicely it would be free or free with restrictions or alternatively not free at all but purchasable.

I post my findings and thoughts and use up my valuable time at the forum for free if they are of any value to anyone which I doubt in most instances but there you go.

I did not think at all of your post as being unreasonable in any way though could not see a point in making a statement that is or should be obvious to anyone. Stateing something which goes without saying still, statement made - staement accepted in the sense that it was intended so I did not find it offensive at all.

You do have to be rather careful at the forum when posting as pepole do tend to get somewhat over irrate if opinions do not match with their own, however if you dont post at all then that would be a worse case scenario - life is a risk aint it, but worth it.

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KeithC
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Posted: 24th Nov 2005 00:50
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You know Uman, I consider you a voice of reason here. Sure I could have taken it out of context. But to make up an entire thread about how I (or anyone else) should label our work that we are giving to the user for nothing (not even a mention of our name), and the only exception is that they can't make money from our work or use it in any way that might benefit them financially...seems VERY ungrateful to me. That's how I took it, rather like a slap in the face.

So I'm getting irrate because tscwarz's doesn't match my own? That could be equated to Donald Trump getting a bit vexed because somebody wants him to build them a house for free...and then ask him to abide by the definition ascribed in the dictionary of what 'free' exactly is. I realize that is a bit of an over-dramatization, but take it for what it's worth.

The current formula of what is considered free, in respect to what we are discussing, isn't new; it's been around for sometime now.

But you know what, you have your view and I have mine. Thanks for at least responding in a reasonably well thought out response, instead of a 2-line massacre of the established vernacular.

-Keith

"Some people are only alive because it's illegal to kill them".
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uman
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Posted: 24th Nov 2005 01:13
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KeithC,

Thanks for you kind response. I can appreciate your feelings and your tender response to my post which was not meant as a go at anyone as I if I do feel the need to comment I try and remain as impartial as possible and just make general comment or observations, which hopefully will be understood to be such and not of a personal nature.

Please keep up the good work you are doing as there are many users who mat be less capable or broke or both and need much help.

Anyone that makes something and makes it available to others have the right of course to impose whatever restrictions they feel fit and rightly so.

I appreciate very much all the work and effort put in by community members for the benefit of everyone else.

Cheers and thank you.

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Sunflash
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Posted: 24th Nov 2005 01:19
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OMG!! I can't believ you Keith! All he said was that we should shwitch some of the words we use, so as not to confuse people. Whats wrong with that? It was very nice of him to post that. I had a person like you model somthing like that, and he used the word "FREE", so I thought that meant that no restrictions applied, well, when I told the guy that I had a brilient plan for the models, he said things like (but not exactly), "You can't use that model unless you give full credit to me, and you DON'T use it in a comercial game". Well, I was stunned, I was also annoyed. He had wasted LOTS of my time. And I can't stand it when I see opics like: "FREE models, come an' get 'em!" and I enter thinking that they have no restrictions, then three pages from the download they say, "Oh yaeh, just so you all know, if you use these models, you have to email me and tell me what for, then give me credit in your game.". Don't get me wrong, i have nothing against giving credit where it's due, I would even help people advertise. However, when they hide behind, and somtimes distiorte the word "FREE" to their advantage, it drives me mad.

Your a good modeler, you deserve credit. Tschwarz was not threatening that. He was just trying to let people know how annoying it is when they imply that a model is free, when really it has hidden fees. If you made a model, and someone pointed out a glitch, would you start screaming at him like, "you unthankful little snot nosed pedestrien that dosn't even have the knowlege of me!!! How dare you criticize my work of art!!! You don't even rank up to my knowlegdable self... I know how to model!!!"

Sorry if this sounds harsh, I tend to point to the VERY extreme when argueing.

When FPSC gets good enough, lets make a Redwall game!

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uman
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Posted: 24th Nov 2005 01:27
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Sunflash,

Yes it was a little harsh but thats just you I guess - I can accommodate that - everyone here has an opinion and expresses it as they see - reasonably - hopefully.

Please dont let this one degrade until it becomes something else.

Im outta this one.

See ya elsewhere.

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KeithC
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Posted: 24th Nov 2005 01:41
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"You may use this model(and it's components)in any commercial and non-commercial application. You may not post this model(or it's components)anywhere else without my permission. You may not claim it as your own, sell it, or put it(or any part of it)in a package for sale or otherwise."

That is one of 2 examples that reside in my threads. Each download also has a license enclosed that says the same thing.

I won't be switching any of the words I use because someone complains about the way I give something out for FREE.

Have a good one.

-Keith

"Some people are only alive because it's illegal to kill them".
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uman
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Posted: 24th Nov 2005 01:53
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Aye! good one matie
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tschwarz
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Posted: 24th Nov 2005 02:08
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KeithC not sure when you thought this post was about you. Sorry but it is not. I even said that in one of my posts above..
Here: This is not about KeithC.. KeithC is good..


Let me try this another way

Let's say I want to credit everyone that I have either purchased or received a model from. Let's say I have 100 models that I need to give credit to. How would I possibly do this:

Model of which-a-ma-thingy on level 1 across from the hallway created by xxx.
Model of box with yellow stripes on level 2 in the room to the left created by xyz.
etc.....

Or should it be more generic,

models created by, xxx, xyz

or two models created by and one model created by.


Now I have purchased several models also and they do not require me to give credit. But if I have to credit a free model what of the ones I purchased.


All I am saying is if you do require credit, or it's not allowed in commercial games don't call it free at least on the title of the post.
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Sunflash
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Posted: 24th Nov 2005 02:22
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Quote: "That is one of 2 examples that reside in my threads. Each download also has a license enclosed that says the same thing.

I won't be switching any of the words I use because someone complains about the way I give something out for FREE.
"


I fully respect your wishes, thanks for helping us so much! I know we don't diserve it at all. But yes, as Tschwarz said, this topic was not about you, it wasn't even hinted as such. It was probably good for you to post in here though, thanks
Again, I do not want to start a flame, so I'm, as Uman said, "oughta here".

When FPSC gets good enough, lets make a Redwall game!

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electric chihuahua
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Posted: 24th Nov 2005 04:46
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Let me get this straight. You get to use something for free, but you are too lazy to note where you got it to credit the person who made it. I can't make a model for the life of me, but if I have permission to use someone else's work I will try to give everyone who participated credit as payment to them. Have you paid attention to the ellaborate credits at the begining and end of all commercial games? They include every person or company who participated. Excuse my rant.
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tschwarz
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Posted: 24th Nov 2005 11:25 Edited at: 24th Nov 2005 12:06
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Yes, I am lazy that is why I bought FPSC, If I wanted to create ellaborate credits at the begining and end. I would have bought an ellaborate game engine. But once again you miss the point. But it sounds like you have this down.

How do you keep track of each model you have downloaded, or purchased. Did you write a database, or maybe you write itrequire credits, how will you display them on your credit screen.

The professional game companies usually have on a piece of paper, or maybe you create a directory structure. How many models, textures, etc... are you keeping track of. Which ones their own teams, so all media will be from the same group of people.

Please enlighten me on how you do this now or plan to do this later. Games take a long time to finish will you remember everyone when you have completed your game. I really would like to know.

Thank you, awaiting your response.
Edit: g
etting very late now need some sleep. I will still check responseous

check out my post in models
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Vlad
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Posted: 24th Nov 2005 12:32
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Quote: "Please enlighten me on how you do this now or plan to do this later. Games take a long time to finish will you remember everyone when you have completed your game. I really would like to know."


Easy, write it down, keep emails, get organized.

I can understand where KeithC feels some ungratefullness, even if this whole thing is not pointed directly at him. But if we ask for free or use for free, we should not, for a simple matter of respect, demand anything.

And truth be told, if anyone thinks that what they are getting for free should be managed or labeled a different way, I would simply not care, and probably I would simply start charging money for it.

If someone is using someone else media according to the artist license, that's fine. If someone wants something more or changed, even if it's the license, it's quite simple, pay for it.

Far too many people get in here saying they want this world, that world, the other world. I can understand many don't have the means to make models, but the usual approach is a bit rude for someone who is doing if for free. You are taking that person's time with the line "give me model plz" and now we have this diferent flavour: the license methods should be different and I can't find a good justification for it.

Allow me to disagree.

When I went after models, I wrote a mail to some people saying "I don't have much money, but payment maybe arranged. Thank you in advance."

I'm pretty sure I know everything. Doubts are something rare in me and I am never wrong, as this signature can prove.
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KeithC
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Posted: 24th Nov 2005 12:45
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As far as needing to document where the credits should go, games and movies seem to have no problem with putting them at the end; it gives them a good excuse to play some music. But I don't see you having that problem anymore, as all my models are now for pay. Thanks for setting me straight, and good luck with those 100 free models.

You see I feel that it wasn't just a slap on the face to me, but also to all the other artists out there who are trying hard to bring some actual quality to the models they wish to share.

Anyways, I'm not gonna dwell on this anymore, because I don't have too. Happy Turkey Day all.

-Keith

"Some people are only alive because it's illegal to kill them".
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Sunflash
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Posted: 24th Nov 2005 21:04 Edited at: 24th Nov 2005 21:06
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Quote: "If someone is using someone else media according to the artist license, that's fine. If someone wants something more or changed, even if it's the license, it's quite simple, pay for it.
"


Thank you for that. I don't see why all the artists are jumpy about this. i for one am VERY tired of seeing "Free models, come get them", but them having hidden fees. Thats called "lieing". As long as you havn't done it Keith, you shouldn't get upset. Actually, yes you should, you should get upset at all those that have. I am so tired of having to seek out all the little things people try to hide in their "free" models. If it's not free, don't call it such. THank you Keith for changing your models to "free-voked", it means you listening. But don't take it like we don't apreciate it. We really like it when people submit media, but we arn't going to bow down to them. If someone says their model is "free", but you have to give them credit, then I will point that out. But as you artist seem to be saying, I should be overly thankful, and say something as such, "'o great and wonderful artist, ye who have taken the time to even glance at us, blesses shall a'rise to thee, thank you for you wonderful "free" gifts, however, When scanning over the README file after I downloaded you gift from the heavens above, I noticed it said I need to put you in my credits, and I owe you $10, and even though your model is very lame, I will do your bidding, because... um... because, you know how to model 'o great one!"

What I'm trying to say with this VERY extreme example above^ (don't take offence, it was not directed at anyone), why do almost all the modelers here want us to bend our backs over for them with all their hiddne fees. If it's not free, just say so. Thats all I want. If you look on Turbo Squid, you find ALOT of "FREE" models, and AFTER downloading them you find a README, whenever I see those, I roll my eyes, about %85 of the time it says somthing like, "please don't use this for comercial game sunless you email me, and give me credit. If your project will be selling for a large some, then you must also pay me $50 for a one year license." What it really is, is "free with limits." Which as is really, "Free-voked".

I'm not trying to say that it isn't good to give credit. It is really good to give credit, and as I said above, I love to give credit. I just get annoyed by people that, in a way, trick us into putting them into their credits, and when we bring this up, we get blamed for being, "ungratefull and sellfish". Which is NOT what we try to come accross as. Yes, some people really ARE selfish and ungrateful, those people get REALLY annoying.

Conclusion:

1) If you host a model, please, be honset on whether it's free, freevoked, or not free at all. Explain.
2) If someone fails to do rule number one, don't be ungratful, or selfish. Simply mention their error.
3) Modelers, don't get indignant over those who mention your error.

When FPSC gets good enough, lets make a Redwall game!

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tschwarz
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Posted: 24th Nov 2005 22:24
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Though I stand behind my original post I need to explain what prompted me to post in the first place.

I recently purchased some models from a 3rd party, I spent a lot of time converting the format over to .x and then I noticed a readme file that stated that I had to give credit if I used them. It was completely my fault for not checking on that before I purchased or even before spending the time converting. But, it still made me made. It's not that I object to giving credit, I object to being forced to for every model.

I have purchased many models from users at fpsc and 3rd party companies that do not demand me to give them credit. I always post a reply, send an email or tell others when I am happy with their models and policies. If I am not happy I never post a negative I just don't advertise for them. I have not downloaded any free models for a very long time, so I have not replied to any.

I respect everyone, modellers, texture artists, musicians, programmers, ditch diggers, plumbers, carpenters and especially anyone that was in the airbourne and served in iraq.

I never intended this post to be a personal attack on any person or
their abilities.

People have fought for that word for a long time.

So please consider this post re-voked.

regards,
tschwarz
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BULLSHOCK 2
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Posted: 24th Nov 2005 23:36 Edited at: 24th Nov 2005 23:37
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Quote: "2) If someone fails to do rule number one, don't be ungratful, or selfish. Simply mention their error."


you cant do that, because its not an error. everyone has there own definintions of free.

mine is that it doesnt cost money. so if you want any free (my definition) stuff, i would suggest you stop posting stuff like this, trying to put limitations on artists when you have no authority.

im with keithc on this one, this really pisses me off.

as you can see here, there are a lot of definitions for free:

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=free

one of which is this:
Quote: "Costing nothing; gratuitous: a free meal."


so, you cant just take one definition and say that that is the correct, they are all correct, and depend on context.

cntext with FPSC material is simply cost.

so a free fpsc model, simplt costs you no money...but that doesnt mean that if you put restrictions on it, that its still not free.

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Conjured Entertainment
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Posted: 24th Nov 2005 23:53 Edited at: 25th Nov 2005 00:31
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FREE to me is the ...

Quote: "costing nothing"


... Definition.

No monetary costs is what I mean by FREE.
It is a valid definition, so I will continue to use it in that sense.

And, when a modeler asks that you put his name in your game's credits, it's still FREE.
Putting their name in the game's credits COSTS you NOTHING.
No monetary costs.

But that's the point.
There are many definitions for the use of the word.
Only the author can say what their definition of FREE is.
Now you all will know what I mean when I use the word FREE here.
No monetary costs.

I offered everything for FREE until it was called "Garbage".
If people want to bad mouth my good gestures then they can pay for it.
No more freebies from me.
Except once in awhile.
Like the propane tank.
But thats garbage too.
So be it.

If you don't like the FREE ones then don't take it, but please don't complain.
Just because a model is offered here FREE as a stand alone, doesn't mean that it won't be part of a Add-On for sale.

Restrictions should be clearly laid out WHEN the Model or Media is offered.
Its the "FREE Media" with no ReadMe file that bugs me.

Conclusion:
(1) A Creator should include a ReadMe file that cleary states his intentions for the use of his/her Media.
(2) Failing to list restrictions in a ReadMe file implies that there are no restrictions.
(3) If you (as an end user) don't like their terms, then simply don't use that Media.




Whatever you can imagine, you can animate. --- Walt Disney
All too easy. --- Darth Vader
Just do it! --- Nike
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KeithC
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Posted: 25th Nov 2005 01:34 Edited at: 25th Nov 2005 01:50
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In my mind what should have happened here is the following:

If you have a problem with some artist's policies, then address those people. Do not make a blanket statement that could have undesirable effects (I understand you didn't mean it that way). In this instance you have cost this community a modeler/texturer who was quite willing/anxious to contribute. I understand you didn't mean for this to happen, but the damage has been done. Now, if I can climb down from my "throne"...I acknowledge that I am probably just a speck around here who is a mediocre artist. I'll stop posting free stuff, and start creating 'for pay' model packs instead; there will be someone who takes my place and gives out free models on a regular basis. Hopefully they aren't driven off with demands on their free work.

I used to LOVE coming on these forums and checking out how many hits I had on my threads, how many responses I got positive or critiques, and seeing how many people were as excited as I was to get those models game ready. But as time went on some people (only a few) seemed to get pretty demanding about free stuff; and then I read this thread, that was the final push for me. I could've released my models long ago as-is, but I wanted them to be of good quality for the user; because free or not, they had my name on them. So then I said to myself, "alright I'll just rap up these few models I have already into a package (for free) that will go right into FPSC, and call it quits with the freebies. But the more this went on, the more irate I got. I heard others telling me to release them as a pay-pack; and it clicked....ok, I will.

Of course now that they will be for pay I'll be spending a bit more time making better textures and re-tweaking the models themselves, perhaps making some more melee weapons. I want people to feel they spent their money well. I want them to get quality models, for a little money. Hopefully this will be a better experience this way. I hold no ill will toward you tshwarz, I see you have given to the community as well. Maybe you just made me realize that I need to take it to the next level.

As far as the statements about free models elsewhere (wasn't mentioned here, just an example); yes there are free models out there, even cheaper ones. But are those models' files customized to go right into FPSC with little or no conversion?

In Conclusion I will stand behind my original reply:

"Don't look a gift horse in the mouth"

-Keith

"Some people are only alive because it's illegal to kill them".
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Mr Scarab
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Posted: 25th Nov 2005 01:48
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I made some free (ish) music that I allowed to be used by the TGC community. My reasoning for doing this was purely and simply for free advertising in return. I think it is a fair trade to ask someone to mention my name or even my website if they use my music. Whatever you want to call it is fine by me so long as I can still define it as free. I don't see myself as a freelance musician (maybe one day) but I never really understood why some people restricted their "free" stuff to non commercial games. My opinion would be that a commercial game would be excellent if it mentioned my name. More advertising for me and another step towards that dream of becoming a freelance musician.

http://www.scarabpd.com/music/

Sig removed by Mod. Please do not use offensive language in your signature (sic).
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KeithC
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Posted: 25th Nov 2005 01:51
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Very good point Mr. Scarab.

"Some people are only alive because it's illegal to kill them".
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Sunflash
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Posted: 25th Nov 2005 03:22
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@Keith.

Quote: "If you have a problem with some artist's policies, then address those people. Do not make a blanket statement that could have undesirable effects"


I can see your reasoning behind this, and I must say, I do somwhat agree with you. However, I think tschwarz has had the same experience as me, and decide to post his findings on the topic.
I must also say, if you address an artist's policies, you ALWAYS will run the risk of getting undesireable effects.

Quote: "In this instance you have cost this community a modeler/texturer who was quite willing/anxious to contribute. I understand you didn't mean for this to happen, but the damage has been done. Now, if I can climb down from my "throne""


I think that statement right there was out of line. It was YOU and YOU alone that decided to stop giving models for free. I respect this decision, and I wish you well

Again, I respect you and your work, I have full confidence that you will deliver a wonderful FPSC model pack (for a fee). Your current work is evidence of this.

When FPSC gets good enough, lets make a Redwall game!

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KeithC
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Posted: 25th Nov 2005 03:54
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Sunflash-"I must also say, if you address an artist's policies, you ALWAYS will run the risk of getting undesireable effects."

I agree with that, only then everything is kept between parties...not broadcast for all to see.

The second quote of mine wasn't out of line, it was the truth. I stopped what I was doing because of the statements made. It is clear that you cannot see that however, so I suggest we agree to disagree.

-Keith

"Some people are only alive because it's illegal to kill them".
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Sunflash
19
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Joined: 28th Jun 2005
Location: Seattle, Wa
Posted: 25th Nov 2005 05:31
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Quote: "so I suggest we agree to disagree."

Lol, I think we already do. But sure, we can make it official. *extends/offers hand*

When FPSC gets good enough, lets make a Redwall game!

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KeithC
Senior Moderator
18
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Joined: 27th Oct 2005
Location: Michigan
Posted: 25th Nov 2005 05:36
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*Takes hand, shakes firmly and exits (stage left)*

"Some people are only alive because it's illegal to kill them".
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