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DarkBASIC Professional Discussion / Going to buy DarkBasic but.....

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Pyro
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Posted: 28th Feb 2003 06:08
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Before anything, let me tell you that this have been a whole process.
I have work with different rpg makers, more with Rpg Maker 2000, via this community i heard about a programation language called "Darkbasic" they told me it was excellent and very easy to learn to make games. I downloaded the demo, and is still incredible for me how easy it was to do stuff...or to learn how, and i didn't program before that (i just make websites). But the software was like a bit old, and i found out that there was a DarkBasic Pro. I just downloaded the professional demo, but is hard to me to find out the new features. What i have understand is that DarkBasic Pro is more "up to date" with the technology of graphics and other things of today....my questions are (please, if you can help me, tell me, i would appreciate it).

1.- Is this software really powerful for making games? There are really no limits? (i know there are limits, no literally, you know what i mean)

2.- I kept reading on the forums that it is "easy, easy, easy, easy", and thats very cool, but IS IT GOOD, can you make games like Morrowind with it? (supposing i am willing to give lot of effort and work on it)

Thank you for all!
"The ideas are in your head, you just gotta work like a dog and put them into code"
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IanM
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Posted: 28th Feb 2003 11:16
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1 - Yes and yes.
2 - Yes (especially with the speed-up due with patch4).

It's all down to the amount of effort you do actually put in, but if I were you, I'd start on a smaller project first and build up - there's literally years of effort that went into creating Morrowind, and those guys are masters.
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Richard Davey
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Posted: 28th Feb 2003 11:57
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Interestingly - if the average size of a development team is say 100 to 200 people and they take (on average) 2 years to complete a game to the level of Morrowind or Halo, etc - that means anyone here who are in a "one man band" capacity expecting to try to re-create a similar level/size game would have to be putting in no less than 200 to 400 years worth of work into the project.

Ouch

Keep your expectations realistic!!! Please!

Cheers,

Rich

"Gentlemen, we are about to short-circuit the Universe!"
DB Team / Atari ST / DarkForge / Retro Gaming
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BoB Vila
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Posted: 28th Feb 2003 15:54
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Idunno, because if you cut out all the fat like, promoters and and markerts, relations people that sort of thing. And just take the design and development team. I bet its under 15 people.

Granted when it comes to testing and all that good stuff, you throw on more people. And since DBP is suppost to reduce development time by a 5th (I think thats what I read) then, we are looking at needing 3 people for 2 years full time on a DB project maybe idunno strictly hypothetical here.

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Richard Davey
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Posted: 28th Feb 2003 16:07
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You reckon any of the major hits of today are under 15 people??? Seriously?!!

I just read the credits page of the back of my Unreal2 manual and the page for Legend Entertainment themselves has 99 people on it and that didn't even include the people from Epic Games who are another 13 people. Then you've got the "fat" like the QA people, the testers and the marketing bods.

So I wasn't too far off the mark!

Cheers,

Rich

"Gentlemen, we are about to short-circuit the Universe!"
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Jeffro
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Posted: 28th Feb 2003 16:25
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I did try cloning myself so that I could work on all the different jobs at the same time.

But the clones all buggered off down the pub and had a party.

Sigh, alone again.....

It's never as easy as it looks!
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Arrow
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Posted: 28th Feb 2003 16:29
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I've read that many compains have about 40 to 50 people working on the game, the rest are sales and that kinda stuff. If you reduce the "project leaders" that don't do any real work, combine a couple of jobs here and thier, you could get it down to 15. Of course I'm not talking about some companies that go over bourd with staff. Remember the first games were made alone of with teams of two of three people. One must break down how a game is made, I bet a good part of the time isn't spent on programing or modeling, but working out ideas. Plus with more people there is more chance of break downs in communication. Mabye if yo uhad a real good team of say 10 or 12 people that that you worked next to (as apossed to on line) you might get something that good.

Finally, Pyro, there are limits, but they are so vast that you'll never reach them.

Am I a butterfly dreaming I'm a man?
Or a bowling ball dreaming I'm a plate of samishi?
Never assume that what you see or feel is real.
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Pyro
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Posted: 28th Feb 2003 16:30
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Guys your reply is great! i think will just spend much time on thsoe forums when this programs arrive
Look, i can find a 200 person staff! (well i cant, but lets suppose i can) All i want to know if Dark Basic CAN do a game like that? Is between his possibilities? Or even close enough? Anyway i already ordered it, Thanks!

"The ideas are in your head, you just gotta work like a dog and put them into code"
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Pyro
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Posted: 28th Feb 2003 16:32
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Oh and IanM, i tottaly agree with you, i want to start with a small project, just is curiosity

"The ideas are in your head, you just gotta work like a dog and put them into code"
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Kjetil
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Posted: 28th Feb 2003 16:40
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"Remember the first games were made alone of with teams of two of three people"

But none of them were in real 3d!

If you do a sraight 2d game I guess you could have a team of 15 people. But none of the top selling games today are 2d, are they?

- Kjetil
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Richard Davey
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Posted: 28th Feb 2003 16:44
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Arrow - the first games were made with teams of (usually) 1 ! But those days are long gone in the commercial sense of things and with even 50 people you'd be hard pushed to create any of the hits of today.

There are good reasons why most games have the likes of : modellors, animators, motion capture studio people, sound technicians, texture artists, architecture designers, musicians, engine programmers, AI programmers, network programmers, utility/tool programmers, terrain artists, effects programmers, physics programmers, scripting and cinematics, localisation, concept artists, voice production, not to mention the producers that are vital to making everything come together. Dig out any decent game you own and look at the credits list, it reads like a movie!

Sales staff, marketing, etc usually don't even work for the development companies anyway, they work for the publishers. While I agree you could achieve a lot with 15 dedicated staff, you vastly under-estimate what is involved in making a commercial game.

Technically could DB do it? I don't think we'll ever know.

Cheers,

Rich

"Gentlemen, we are about to short-circuit the Universe!"
DB Team / Atari ST / DarkForge / Retro Gaming
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Electron
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Posted: 28th Feb 2003 16:47
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I'm very impressed with the results of DB Pro (haven't bought it yet, just looked at the demos) is an excellent solution to games programming, saves alot of time! but one MUST be realistic about coding hit titles like Halo or Splinter Cell.

Start small people, don't think BIG at first, re-create the old classics like Pacman and Bubble Bobble in 2D/3D or a mixture of both, DarkBASIC is a relatively young games package (correct me if I'm wrong Rich) don't expect to create HIT titles with a £73 software package although looking at some of the demos it may well be possible, which is awesome

I think DarkBASIC is a wonderful language (I'm still using DB v1.13) giving people access to the power of DirectX.

Truly remarkable!

Cheers!

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drdespair
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Posted: 28th Feb 2003 17:08
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These days the actual programming units are quite small with the vast amount of engines and development environments readily available for a licensing fee. As far as actual programming goes its now mostly centered on the user interface and designing scripting functions for in-game stuff. The rest of the team are artist be it 3d or 2d. Morrowind took a long time to make primarily because the whole world was created by hand, every rock every tree was placed there by some member of the team. The architectural design had to be worked out for all the major races, as well as all the clothes, armor, weapons, special effects and the rest. In essence, what we are seeing is a major turn from what was done in the old times.. where a bunch of programmers worked with one or two artist to create their works, to more of a film production approach, where you rent the equipment (in the case of Morrowind it was Numerical Design's NetImmerse engine) and the rest is really making good actors, props, sets, story, lights, camera, action! Well maybe it is not at that point yet.. but it's very close. I doubt any two or three member team would be able to accomplish anything like Morrowind in any reasonable amount of time. Although perhaps it they only concentrated on making one dungeon or one city it may be more reasonable. I think this advise can be applied to all situation from writing to modeling, don’t start thinking that you are going to make the next Morrowind.. because you will ultimately fail, start with making a room, then a guy to walk around it.. maybe then a tool that can set up the guy and the room without having to bother with code so much.. and then you are on your way of expanding.. expanding.. expanding.

D.

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Steverino
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Posted: 28th Feb 2003 17:24
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While DB is great for re-creating classic games as a learning exercise, that's not terribly interesting culturally.

The really cool thing about such an easy and powerful language is that it makes it possible for individual artists to actually create their own idiosyncratic visions.

When you have to sign paychecks for a large team, you're only going to make something "safe," in other words a rehash of something that's been profitable in the past. The bedroom programmer has a lot more freedom.

Don't let existing games define the limits of your imagination!

Surrealist writing toy -- http://www.iconpoet.com
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Richard Davey
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Posted: 28th Feb 2003 17:34
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Agreed, but at the same time don't let your imagination run away with itself - everyone has limits. Failing to recognise them leads to disappointment, disappoint leads to disillusionment (disillusionment leads to hate, hate leads to suffering, err.. you get the idea!)

Cheers,

Rich

"Gentlemen, we are about to short-circuit the Universe!"
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Rob K
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Posted: 28th Feb 2003 17:49
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Yes... but we can dispense to the graphics programmer thanks to DBP which provides the engine for it.

NOBODY has a forum name as stupid as Darth Shader. I do.
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Richard Davey
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Posted: 28th Feb 2003 18:11
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Well that just cuts us down to about 180 man years then

Cheers,

Rich

"Gentlemen, we are about to short-circuit the Universe!"
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BoB Vila
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Posted: 28th Feb 2003 18:30
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Pyro, I was in the same boat as you. I'm not expecting to make the next Morrowind or anything but I want to know if it could be done. I just want to know if DBP is the RIGHT tool for the future. Kindof like, if you are looking for a job in graphic design, one of the things they want to see on your resume is experience with tools like 3Dstudiomax.

If you're a programmer for business apps they want to see a strong background in VB or VC, maybe crystal reports or other tools. Video games, its C++, asm and whatnot.

In the future is someone going to be saying, "Must have DarkBasic Programming Experience"?

I don't care about spending 99$ on software, its about time spent learning.

Basically, what I would like to know is, will or is Dark Basic considered a Commercial Strength Development tool.
Could it be a possible future for game development. How will it adapt to the future? Obvously it's currently used for DirectX on windows OS's, but could we see a High End DarkBasic Commerical product for developing..lets say.. XBOX titles.

It could take years to develop a good game, specially with a small team, so you want to have a tool that won't be way outdated by the time your done. You wan't to be able to use all the experience you've gained working on one project and use it on the next one, not learn something completely new.

I dunno, I've got a lot of questions and could go on and on. But like you Pyro, I was playing around with the Demo, and just Purchased DBP after reading this thread. Kinda like when I got my MCSE, I was basing my future as a Tech on the fact that Microsoft would continue to be the strong leader in OSs. Now I'm betting that DarkBasic will come out on the top for Game Development.

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Pyro
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Posted: 28th Feb 2003 18:50
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Bob Vila, thanks for your opinion, is good to know someone understand me on this, thanks to everyone else for their reply to, i hope you burn in hell (thats my way of saying thank you, after all i am Pyro).
But Bob made my point, the posts keep telling me that the software is just easy, and now i feel dissapointed with some comments.
Dark Basic looks very powerful to me, to be considered a tool to remake classic games.
I would appreciate if you go directly to my question:
"Can DB Pro be used to do proffessional and commercial games? (in specific rpgs that are most of the time the most complex)"
"Can i do GREAT games with it?"
All this, assuming i will spend 24 hours a day during 2 years with a staff of 50 persons. Just PLEASE, tell me if the software CAN!

"The ideas are in your head, you just gotta work like a dog and put them into code"
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IanM
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Posted: 28th Feb 2003 19:34
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Yes it can.

With the graphics speed-up coming with Patch4, that will remove a lot of the speed limitations of the graphics engine.
You have access to sound.
You have access to input.
You have access to networking.
You have structures (types) and arrays (OK they could be a little more flexible!) for data management.

What more do you need for a game?

And most importantly, you have a fairly open way of adding your own commands that is going to get more open in the future, so that if you need something, you can add it yourself - or ask me or MrTaToad to write it for you
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Electron
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Posted: 28th Feb 2003 19:36
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Unfortunately Pyro no-one here can give you that answer afterall if they can they must have developed a game like Morrowind with DB PRO your answer, my friend, can only be solved by the DB PRO developers themselves, so Rich if you can ask Lee about this to clear things up, that'll be great

Cheers

If you don't work for it, how do you expect to get it?
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Pyro
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Posted: 28th Feb 2003 19:49
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Hmm..maybe Electron but as always, IanM answers were very specific and direct, and i am very anxious to use darkbasic Pro full, I hope you burn in hell IanM!
Is understadable what you have explained, and i have read a lot about this famous Patch 4, i cant wait to see what it have to offer too. So will inmeadtly start with a small but cool project (not a remake of a classic though) when i have Dartkbasic, and i will keep coming to the forum! thank you all

"The ideas are in your head, you just gotta work like a dog and put them into code"
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IanM
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Posted: 28th Feb 2003 20:01
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If there were such a place, I'm sure I would

The only real limitations you have are your skills, your imagination, and your perseverence ...

Oh, and being nice to people, so that when you find something you have problems with, you can ask and we will want to help you
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TogaMario
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Posted: 28th Feb 2003 20:05
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I've got a five man team. I'm the only programmer, i also animate and texture and model, i have two modellers and animators besides me, one sound tech, we're all actors of sorts, we all do concepts, and it's been one month, and we've already finalized many concepts. I don't think it's entirely impossible to make a really good game, seeing as how I could produce much of my art work (models and textures included)in such a short time as I have, and I have other at my disposal. We plan to have at least an alpha version done by next year, giving time to make a level editor and other media required for such. My core engine is almost done and it's only been 1 month ... so don't shirk it off! You can do it

P.S. This is what the alphabet would look like if Q and R were eliminated.
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IanM
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Posted: 28th Feb 2003 20:11
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Aha, I knew that I'd missed one off the list - belief.

Nice one TogaMario, you'll prove me right in the end
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Electron
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Posted: 28th Feb 2003 20:11
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IDEA!

why don't ALL the DarkBASIC enthusiasts develop a game together, ok, so it sounds rather perfect, all of us working together to produce a title to sell, but it'll be a realistic proposition, how many people enjoy DarkBASIC? hundreds! loads of modellers, programmers, sound folk, graphics folk etc... that way we can all contribute to a project which may have a worthwhile ending :o) and possibly producing a game like Morrowind could be a realistic goal with so many people working on it.

Q: Who will lead this project?
A: DarkBASIC Software Ltd

Q: Who will profit from the title?
A: The profits can go to charity, I dunno, we'll think of something.

Q: Who will code it?
A: it'll be an Open-Source project, so ALL of us :o)

I dunno, just a thought people.

Cheers

If you don't work for it, how do you expect to get it?
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TogaMario
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Posted: 28th Feb 2003 20:17
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I do like that idea, but I'm currently work 4-8 hours programming on my current project already! Maybe when I'm done I would like to take a break and do mostly animation ... that IS my major ...

P.S. This is what the alphabet would look like if Q and R were eliminated.
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Pyro
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Posted: 28th Feb 2003 20:37
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An open-Source project...that seems like an excellent idea, but maybe...maybe just those with capacity can participate in the progress of the software, like for example: I wont be of any help and maybe i will just be a bother (i dont have programming experience).
They should make a type of form which you have to fill and then you see if you qualify in the staff
That would be great!

"The ideas are in your head, you just gotta work like a dog and put them into code"
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BoB Vila
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Posted: 28th Feb 2003 20:56
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Electron, that is a really good idea, because not only would it be a fun project, it would be a great way for people to learn new things and concepts.
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Electron
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Posted: 28th Feb 2003 21:58
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Pyro, although you may not think you could contribute but your wrong, it's not just programming, there are many are ways you can help, Beta Testing, I dunno, ideas as to the plot of the game, whatever you specialize in. anyway, it's not programming that's needed, it's a whole range of skills and talents that's required.

ANYONE can contribute ideas, but then again, it could lead to many arguments LOL anyway, if we ALL think realistically as to what we ourselves can achieve. it doesn't matter if we don't finish the game, as BoB Vila suggests "it would be a great way for people to learn new things and concepts".

You never really KNOW until you try

If you don't work for it, how do you expect to get it?
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Pyro
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Posted: 28th Feb 2003 23:55
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Ah! You are right electron! Thats so flameable!. I mean, after all thats what we were talking a minute ago, about making good games require staff most of the time.
I am a writer and i am very good beta-testing (finding bugs and giving opinions) so, now i agree with this idea 100%!

"The ideas are in your head, you just gotta work like a dog and put them into code"
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the_winch
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With it being open source it coulde be a lot easer for people to contribute, I would think most problems could be sorted out on forums like this fairly quickly.

You would need some good leaders to keep it all together and organise the direction etc.

Keep the code well commented and it would be usefull for people learning and could be used in other projects.

Perhaps they should have hosting for opensource projects on this site as it could grow into a lot of usefull code and show what db can do.

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Electron
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Exactly D_D, that's the idea

If you don't work for it, how do you expect to get it?
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BoB Vila
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Posted: 1st Mar 2003 02:29
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Who want's to organize? eh?
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Vid
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Didn't Dungeon Siege have a relatively small team. I mean there IS only one name on the box. but dont think I'm disagreeing with a big cooperative team makes a good game. I think 99% of even the most talented programmers need to work with many in order to produce a full scale great game. but there may be one in a million that has his act together and makes editting programs for most aspects of the game to cut time dramatically, and organize their code extremely well. where theres a will theres a way. but dont get carried away...
...its still one in a million

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IanM
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Posted: 5th Mar 2003 19:46
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Erm, you haven't read the last 2 pages of the Dungeon Siege manual have you?
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Vid
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IanM:

No i actually have not, why are there tons of people?
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Fluffy Paul
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For all those who don't have the manual: 72 people from Gas Powered Games(not including people who got "thanks"), and 49 people from Microsoft (excluding "Thankees") and THEN there were another 30 people in Ireland, Japan, Korea and Taiwan for localised antics.

That's 151 people. Admittedly it looks like the MS people were mostly "management" and testing. So if you're generous and only count the Gas Powered people that's still 71 more people than just you.

The way to making a cool game is the tools. The better your tools, the higher the quality of your product. Level designers don't sit down with notepad open and start typing in verticies, you know.

What we need are tools, decent tools. But not Descent tools or Intrplay will kick our arses.

Ending a sentence with a French word is so passé
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