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FPSC Classic Product Chat / Why are all enemys Medium Poly models???

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Mr Love
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Posted: 18th Dec 2005 15:50
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I just wondering why TGC have to create enemys with so many polygons? I mean It slows down the game more than all other things together! I have proof for it, I made a huge game with alot of entities but the enemys was created with only 700 polys, and I used alot of them! Belive Me or not but I played that game at 30-33fps. I cant understand when TGC makes models with 2500 polys and 7000 vertex, Im not sure that even the fastest engines can handle this kind of animated objects. I now really hope that TGC has learned something from all slow games that have been made latly. AIKO is My example that this can be done mutch better! She is made of 2500 polys and I converted her to 900 polys with a simple converter (not a professional C4D plugin) Ofcourse it is a few small changes but You really cant see it in the game. I think that TGC shourld convert all enemys for free to between 600-1000 polys so everybody can make games in normal speed, and then send a link so everybody with fpsc can download them. And I really hope that things will be better for Character Pack 2. If You take a look at this picture You can see that AIKO look the same (almost), she is just 1600 polygons lighter... This will speed up the game 2-4 times faster...

Stop listening to rumors! Listen to the truth...

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Origin
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Posted: 18th Dec 2005 15:55
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Quote: "Why are all enemys Medium Poly models???"


Because, It's a crime against nature not to have a computer that can handle FarCry on ultra high and the res set to 1024x768!

TGC are smart!
They have a monster PC, and we have Wannabee COmputers!

I agree, MR. love...
FPSC should have more Ultra-high-polycount-characters-to-look-good!!

I don't wanna fight no union!

FREE SPEECH FOR ALL!! but, not mod's... hahahaha!!!
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Deadwords
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Posted: 18th Dec 2005 15:58 Edited at: 18th Dec 2005 15:59
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2500 Polys? Maybe, but that is not crushing down frame rate too much. Half-Life 2 main characters have around 7000 polys!
7000 Vertex? Prove it.

Skalex - Nobody can ear you scream ... you're on a forum!
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Mr Love
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Posted: 18th Dec 2005 16:05
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Are You sure about that Skalex? Isnt that the biggest most exteme Killer-robots that have so many? Anyway to make our games faster We have to cut Character Polygons. Just a fact! FPSC is to slow...


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Chimera
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Posted: 18th Dec 2005 16:22
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@Mr Love damn right you are! It's just way to slow, that's the only regret I bought it. The graphics and stuff aren't superb and still the FPS is only 30. I mean, CS Source runs at an average of 80 with everything on the highest quality, I sometimes see it go over 100 ingame. And FPSC with would be comparable to low, runs at 30... c'mon devs stabilize FPSC!
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Mr Love
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Posted: 18th Dec 2005 16:36
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many FPSC games runs at 15-20fps, its a fact!


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Bloodeath 6 6 6
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Posted: 18th Dec 2005 18:27
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all mine run at 18 at the highestMr love your right.

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Dont hate
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JimB
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Posted: 18th Dec 2005 19:13
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Maybe TGC capped the framerate of FPSC at 30fps.Regarding the models polycount to get models lookin reasonably good 1500-1800 polys is justified, going down to 900-1000 is back to QuakeII type standard I'm sure the TGC artist would'nt mind.
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Mr Love
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Posted: 19th Dec 2005 10:17
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It is a FPSC character (US Soldier I think) that only have 1300 polys, but FPSC has big probs to handle only 4 of theese Guys(!) But You can see on the picture of AIKO that models can look perfect with 900 polys! In Half Life 1 they use characters made by only 550 polys, and they looked really cool... I Myself use characters with only 800 polygons. My game is fast as hell... You CAN make fantastic models with only 600-900 polygons! I will show You later..


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Mr Love
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Posted: 19th Dec 2005 10:59
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Here is one example that You can do fantastic looking models with only 800 polygons. This soldier is made of only 800 polys(!)
Quite nice for being a low poly model, isnt it?


Stop listening to rumors! Listen to the truth...

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GGardar
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Posted: 19th Dec 2005 12:50
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My game always runes on 23-32 you just hit tap on the keyboard and see what is making your game go slow. And use pre renderned corridors.

pc. Cpu: 3000 amd xp+ ram 2gb
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Mr Love
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Posted: 19th Dec 2005 13:29
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My games is always running in maximum 33fps (except My old games). I am doing this to help thoose Who have probs with the framerate. And because I have enemys that are LP, I can have about 10 enemys in the same room, and still have maximum framrate. If Your game runs in 23fps You really shourld do something about it. slow games is always a pain for thoose who plays it!


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transient
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Posted: 20th Dec 2005 02:59
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The frame-rate is capped at 30-33 fps, for reasons I'm not sure of.

The engine currently has limitations which I think are being worked on by Cellbloc, and I'm sure will improve over time anyway.

Anyway, I think high poly-counts are a little overrated, especially for enemy characters that will only be on the screen 3 seconds before they die.

My favourite FPSC model is the SWAT character from the model pack, and it's only 1200 polys.

instinct is more valuable than intelligence.....
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Mr Love
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Posted: 20th Dec 2005 09:07
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1200 polys is better than 2500, but it is still to mutch for FPSC to handle. The limit are somewere between 800-900 polys. Characters at <700 makes it possible to build very detailed maps, and also mutch bigger maps without big loss of speed. Cellbloc has been talking about Higher framerate and Save and Load a long time now, but We havnt seen anything yet, so I belive it when I see it...
In modelpack 2 the Characters just have to be under 1000 polys! Somewere between 600-900 polys wourld be perfect! Remember, some of the Half Life 1 Characters was made with only 500 polys and they looked great...


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Les Horribres
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Posted: 22nd Dec 2005 00:45
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uhh... you are wrong Mr. Love

FPSC can handle all those polys, and frankly, the characters would look like crap without them (Your character in motion would reveal that fact [i know those curves are really textures]). And on-top of that, there are polys used in animation. I know that anyone who maintains control over their enemy craze gets good stuff.

P.S. HL models don't look great... And according to google, it looks like the models were in the 700 range, not 500.

Engine EFFECENCY is needed, not model destruction. Go to the DBP forums. Look at the FPS' Look at David T's Mercenarys! FPSC is just built pathetically. (using Dark Basic Objects and all).

And My game is being built a couple more times to run at 20-25 only by moveing a few things around. Heck I know that if Riker 9 does what it says it does (and gets rid of the stupid window bubbles) that My game will be 32 FPS stable. In the lower levels it is, but because of Window Bubbles there are a few problems.

And I have 80 Lights, 250 Entitys (no enemys yet, still map building) but Last time I enemy tested, it ran pretty smoothly. Although there are a lot more physics, lights, and entitys now.

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Deadwords
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Posted: 22nd Dec 2005 02:08
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Hey guys, i know all of you have good points, but the characters, entities and all the stuff isn't the problem. The engine is too slow, but there's no more optimization to do. Also, the most high polygon count that slow down a lot the engine is the segments. They are designed to show up in every ways and the editor do not remove the un seen polygons, DBPro is not able to do that. All the professional games and most of the amateur games have optimized levels (unseen polygons removed). Just check CS: Source levels, they are optimized a lot, but they are amazing.

And Merranvo, you are not wrong btw.

Skalex - Nobody can ear you scream ... you're on a forum!
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Conjured Entertainment
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Posted: 22nd Dec 2005 03:32
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Do the best with what you've got.

Good Level Design = Good Speeds.
FPSC works great for my games.





Whatever you can imagine, you can animate. --- Walt Disney
All too easy. --- Darth Vader
Just do it! --- Nike
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uman
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Posted: 22nd Dec 2005 03:44 Edited at: 22nd Dec 2005 03:46
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These last two posts by Merranvo and Skalex hit the nail on the head.

Lees and TGC knows where the problems occur. If you followed Lees diaries when FPSC was being developed you would have seen exactly the issues that Lee struggled with to boost speeds and find solutions to those issues that cause slow speeds and fps issues as the issues were clearly spelled out for all to see.

Some of those issues were apparently never completely fixed or overcome - but only partly so, and in some instances improvements were made.

Issues in the main and understated as they are complex issues were related to :

Dynamic entity AI think time drains or losses.

General optimisation and particularly an unknown issue which causes the unecessarily high dropoff of fps or serious Lagg issue in small specific locations. We now have an idea of course why this is happening - "culling and overly high poly counts" - though not perhaps all of the exact underlying reasons.

These are the two main reasons and they have an influence one upon the other - together they can cause some serious problems with fps.

This irrespective of the fact that FPSC is no doubt not the fastest underlying engine design in the world even given no speed bugs or issues.

Quote: "All the professional games and most of the amateur games have optimized levels (unseen polygons removed)."


That goes for engines too. I dont know of any other indie engine that ignores poly reduction in compile that has been released for sale as a complete finished product. One would normally expect such to be a Beta Release or at least a promise that such an issue would be under development for fix inclusion in a future release as might be other issues or features. I am probably incorrect there mind you as I dont know every engine and I dont follow so many these days.

If its true that FPSC ignores or does not carry out BSP level optimisation during compile - then I presume the BPS renderer is faulty. If that was known by TGC I cannot understand why that was never specifically referred to as far as I can recall during development of FPSC - though again I did not read or follow all information published.

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alex 1337
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Posted: 22nd Dec 2005 05:34
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That model has extremely good texturing
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Mr Love
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Posted: 22nd Dec 2005 17:42
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Dont listen to Google Merranvo! I have ALL Half Life 1 models so I shourld now better! I agree with skalex that the Segments is a waste of Polygons, It wourld be better if We courld build a world the UnrealEd way! But I dont agree that it is the segments that slow down the engine most of all. Have You ever made a big map without enemys, then You know that the framrate is still very high until You put the enemys into position. I have def nothing against making fpsc faster, I wourld be happy! But try and live in the day today. the only thing that can speed up Your games today is POLYGONREDUCING!!! You know alot of programming Merranvo but not mutch about modelling, With professional reducers You can reduce alot, without seeing any difference! Take a look at AIKO that I reduced, She still looks like AIKO dosnt She?


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Les Horribres
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Posted: 23rd Dec 2005 00:46
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no.
But that is besides the point, because Google is smart. And i OWN hl 1 (and the models DON'T rock, looks at hl 2, THOSE rox). (I forgot how I decompressed the packs though... I think i need to put them together).

Second, entitys don't do **** to the frame rate, nor do enemys. They all just increase the polys, and that hurts the frame rate. Having propperly made maps and propperly placed enemys results in a propperly working game. I am getting ready for a Demo Release of the first level, need to move more lights (trying to get the shadowy feeling, but not inadequate lighting). But as I said before, my game ran well with enemy... But while still light mapping I keep enemys out. Makes it easyer. AND i have to make propper scripts for all these enemys. ARRG.

Segments don't hurt Fraps, there are other things that do, I will list them...

Windows
Doors
Single Mesh Segements

All which form bubbles, which load millions more polys just for the fun of it.

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