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DarkBASIC Professional Discussion / Freescape XI Alpha 2.1 (Holiday Scenery)

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Andy Igoe
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Posted: 4th Mar 2003 21:04
Today I received patch 4 for which I would like to thank Rich and the DB team, whilst it did not bring about world peace it certainly unleashed my freescape terrain system with a blistering speed increase.

With Rich's permission I have released a new alpha build of the demo, there are some technicalities to overcome in the migration such as the tanks wheels no longer turning but this is being investigated.

This is still very early stages of the project and there are bound to be bugs, however you should now be able to see the scope and potential of this system as I know a lot of people where dissapointed not to get the original demo release working at all.

The download is 17.4mb so I do not recommend it without a download resumeing tool or at least broadband connectivity.

You can download by clicking here: http://freescape.successionthebetrayal.com/fs11demo.zip

Andy
Pneumatic Dryll, Outrageous epic cleric of EQ/Xev
God made the world in 7 days, but we're still waiting for the patch.
MrTAToad
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Posted: 4th Mar 2003 23:14
Not very smooth - I was getting between 25 and 31 fps on my GForce4 MX (with all the filtering off).

Do hope P4 will allow programs to go a bit faster than this...

Good news everyone! I really am THAT good...
http://www.nickk.nildram.co.uk/ for great plug-ins - oh my, yes!
Andy Igoe
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Posted: 5th Mar 2003 00:05
The framerate you are getting is certainly lower than my geforce 2.

The smoothness is not DBPro's fault but mine, and i've done a lot of work to even out the smoothness since releasing this demo.

I have reduced the size of the dynamic matrix and compensated for the draw distance reduction with more frequent but smaller updates of the matrix - overall it's a big improvement in smoothness, although I wont claim it's perfect.

Pneumatic Dryll, Outrageous epic cleric of EQ/Xev
God made the world in 7 days, but we're still waiting for the patch.
IanM
Retired Moderator
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Posted: 5th Mar 2003 00:05
I was getting better than that on my laptop (ATI Rage Mobility M4/32MB).

Woohoo, I got to over 1300mph before running off the map!

One effect that I noticed (or think I did) was that sometimes the objects disappeared before I got to them. Something to do with crossing between different matrix areas?
Andy Igoe
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Posted: 5th Mar 2003 00:13
Yes there is a bug in the offroad speed calculation, the problem occurs when the cumulative effect of going downhill brings you above the vehicles speed threshold for that terrain type - at those kind of speeds there is no way the dynamic handling routines will update fast enough.

Every 0.25 seconds a different object type is checked for range to the nearest node of that object type - overall it takes 1.5 seconds for each node to be checked although because there are so many trees the tree node check is further distributed so in all it takes up to 30 seconds for each tree node to be tested if it should be displayed or not.

This is likely what is causing the problem you describe. I've tried to balance the regularity of the node checks with normal movement speed, but at speeds in excess of 100mph it wont stand a chance... It's a framerate v's content tradeoff.

Pneumatic Dryll, Outrageous epic cleric of EQ/Xev
God made the world in 7 days, but we're still waiting for the patch.
MrTAToad
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Posted: 5th Mar 2003 00:28
The only reason I can think of for being so slow is the resolution - If your using 800x600, its a lot slower than 1024x768 on MX4's...

Blended graphics is slightly quicker, but not a lot. Seems there are still speed issues that need to be sorted.

Good news everyone! I really am THAT good...
http://www.nickk.nildram.co.uk/ for great plug-ins - oh my, yes!
Andy Igoe
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Posted: 5th Mar 2003 00:35
The resolution is 1024x768x16 but filtering is turned off for many objects because of display issues.

I could try turning filtering on again now i'm running patch 4 and see what happens, but the problem I had was that I was getting filtering to the black translucency on the foliage which was not the desired effect.

Pneumatic Dryll, Outrageous epic cleric of EQ/Xev
God made the world in 7 days, but we're still waiting for the patch.
MrTAToad
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Posted: 5th Mar 2003 00:43
Sounds like the magical speed increase in P4 won't happen... Either that or they're having trouble with GForce's

Good news everyone! I really am THAT good...
http://www.nickk.nildram.co.uk/ for great plug-ins - oh my, yes!
Andy Igoe
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Posted: 5th Mar 2003 00:52
On my system P4 has increased the speed of freescape from 15-17fps to 45-60fps. That's with a GeForce 2.

Pneumatic Dryll, Outrageous epic cleric of EQ/Xev
God made the world in 7 days, but we're still waiting for the patch.
MrTAToad
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Posted: 5th Mar 2003 01:10
Hope someone else with a MX will try it.

I know MX's are pretty slow, but all commercial games play very well (usually very high detail at 1024x768x32)

Good news everyone! I really am THAT good...
http://www.nickk.nildram.co.uk/ for great plug-ins - oh my, yes!
Spikenspan
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Posted: 5th Mar 2003 06:08
Very nice! I get 40-50 fps on a P3 laptop with a GeForce4 440 Go.

The smoke effect is well done, how do u do this?

Andy Igoe
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Posted: 5th Mar 2003 06:37
hehe actually the smoke is one of the things i'm havaing a patch 4 migration issue with and is currently being investigated, might be me, might be patch 4 beta.

It's a ghosted primitive construct that gets re-textured based on the real time clock ( timer() ). At the moment the colour is far too vibrant and I don't yet have the answers as to why.

Pneumatic Dryll, Outrageous epic cleric of EQ/Xev
God made the world in 7 days, but we're still waiting for the patch.
Shadow Robert
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Posted: 5th Mar 2003 12:29
i'll keep trying, but this keeps timing out at 10mb ... anyone else getting that problem?
2mins to get 10mb, sits there for another 2mins doing bugger all and then just times out :: mumbles "bloody thing" ::

Tsu'va Oni Ni Jyuuko Fiori Sei Tau!
One block follows the suit ... the whole suit of blocks is the path ... what have you found?
Richard Davey
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Posted: 5th Mar 2003 12:34
The new version of your code runs at 109 fps on my machine. All I wish is that you flew a plane not a tank because it takes an age to get anywhere! (or at least a tank with a turbo button).

Cheers,

Rich

"Gentlemen, we are about to short-circuit the Universe!"
DB Team / Atari ST / DarkForge / Retro Gaming
Rob K
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Posted: 5th Mar 2003 13:48
The loading screen gets as far as Initialising 3D - Foliage 3 and then I get a crash (error in D3D8.dll - so presumably the crash is happening on the sync command)

Current Project: Retro Compo. Entry.
Andy Igoe
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Posted: 5th Mar 2003 14:57
lol Rich, actually it all looks pretty sucky from the air... believe it or not handling a matrix for aerial view is a very different discipline - the best results i've had are using aerial photography rather than randomly generated terrain.

Here's an example I made using that technique, which shows a BF109 flying over Hemel Hempstead in Herts, UK: http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~thane/bf109overhemel.jpg

That's actually just a texture thrown over a flat plain, I did have some sucess with a modelled plain and light sourcing but at the time (in DB Classic) I was unable to modify the mesh based upon demographic data so I couldn't create a perfect and seemless UK terrain and therefor didn't do anything with the idea.

Raven & Rob K - sorry I can't help *boggle*

Pneumatic Dryll, Outrageous epic cleric of EQ/Xev
God made the world in 7 days, but we're still waiting for the patch.
Andy Igoe
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Posted: 5th Mar 2003 15:20
I tell you what Rich i'll do you a deal! Model me a nice attack helicopter at about 1000 polys or so and i'll release a demo with a helicopter to fly around much faster than the tank!

Pneumatic Dryll, Outrageous epic cleric of EQ/Xev
God made the world in 7 days, but we're still waiting for the patch.
Richard Davey
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Posted: 5th Mar 2003 15:29
I'll tell you what - I'll send you a stock car model instead and then at least you can make the speed triple what it is!

Cheers,

Rich

"Gentlemen, we are about to short-circuit the Universe!"
DB Team / Atari ST / DarkForge / Retro Gaming
Shadow Robert
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Posted: 5th Mar 2003 15:36
i hate it when i have to take a few attempts at grabbing something... my laptop doesn't like it much though, best i got was 14fps

AMD Mobile 600Mhz | GeForce2 Go! 32Mb | DirectX 9 Debug


they must be putting in more powerful engines into these beasties nowadays

Tsu'va Oni Ni Jyuuko Fiori Sei Tau!
One block follows the suit ... the whole suit of blocks is the path ... what have you found?
Andy Igoe
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Posted: 5th Mar 2003 15:36
bah ok it was worth a shot, i'm working on a unit data file structure at the moment so units can be added simply by writting a short text .dat file. When I release alpha 3 you can write a data file for the stock car model if you choose!

It wont be for a while though, releasing demo's gets in the way of writting the thing.

Pneumatic Dryll, Outrageous epic cleric of EQ/Xev
God made the world in 7 days, but we're still waiting for the patch.
Andy Igoe
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Posted: 5th Mar 2003 15:37
Argh Raven, I started this thread rather than re-use the old one specially so we didn't have to keep scrolling right! Saboteur!

Pneumatic Dryll, Outrageous epic cleric of EQ/Xev
God made the world in 7 days, but we're still waiting for the patch.
Andy Igoe
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Posted: 5th Mar 2003 15:39
Not bad framerate for a P600 with a Geforce 2 - given how much data freescape is having to churn through.

Freescape is not just intensive on the graphics card, but sorting out which objects to display uses cpu time too.

I've run it here sucessfully on a P450 with a TNT2 and got similar framerates, which I think is mighty impressive considering the speed of the machine.

Couldn't reduce that picture size could you please?

Pneumatic Dryll, Outrageous epic cleric of EQ/Xev
God made the world in 7 days, but we're still waiting for the patch.
MrTAToad
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Posted: 5th Mar 2003 15:54
Any change of a 1024x768x32 version ? The GForce4MX should then be able to cope better.

Good news everyone! I really am THAT good...
http://www.nickk.nildram.co.uk/ for great plug-ins - oh my, yes!
Shadow Robert
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Posted: 5th Mar 2003 15:57
i could, but the writing becomes a lil illegiable - and would defeat the point of the picture.

i would edit and put a link - cept well still no edit feature, and that didn't occur to me when i posted it

Tsu'va Oni Ni Jyuuko Fiori Sei Tau!
One block follows the suit ... the whole suit of blocks is the path ... what have you found?
Andy Igoe
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Posted: 6th Mar 2003 00:15
How about chop off the right hand edge, please?

I know the speed routine was wrong, it's been fixed already and covered in the old thread. There's a few issues that I am aware of that I just havn't got too yet. Alpha 2.1 features many engine speed increases and under Alpha 2.2 i'm working on a modular unit system. The changes arn't drastic enough yet to warrant a public release and all the hassle that entails so i'll let you all drive at 250mph+ for now

You mentioned a mesh deformation method of creating my own matrix that would be faster (in the old thread), i've not experimented with that at all - i'm pretty good at DBPro but admit I don't know everything, far from it infact with all the Pro features that Classic never had. So any enlightenment you could give me on this idea i'd take and experiment with - the freescape code is very neat and tidy so should not be too hard to change if I can get my head around it. What command set should I be looking at? How do I perform matrix type functions of tiling and getting the ground height, etc?

Pneumatic Dryll, Outrageous epic cleric of EQ/Xev
God made the world in 7 days, but we're still waiting for the patch.
Andy Igoe
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Posted: 6th Mar 2003 15:10
MrTAToad

I'll include a graphics card selection and resolution selection tool in Alpha 3. I doubt i'll be ready to release it for a week at least though.

Pneumatic Dryll, Outrageous epic cleric of EQ/Xev
God made the world in 7 days, but we're still waiting for the patch.
MrTAToad
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Posted: 6th Mar 2003 15:27
Fair enough.

Good news everyone! I really am THAT good...
http://www.nickk.nildram.co.uk/ for great plug-ins - oh my, yes!
the_winch
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Posted: 6th Mar 2003 21:10
With a 1000mhz athlon and a pyro II 64mb I get an average of about 37fps and at a distance lines between the tiles.

Nikkoz
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Posted: 7th Mar 2003 09:04
"Could not load bitmap at line: 1235"?
Viktor
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Posted: 7th Mar 2003 20:13
You should rename your Freescape because "Freescape" is a trademark, the system was used for some games like "Driller", "Dark Side" and the four other Freescape games.

PC: AMD 1200/512 Mb SDR/GF2MX Dual Display/Win2000, 19" Monitor
ZX: Spectrum 128+ Customized version.
Current Project: BMP2SCR Pro (with LDIR)
Andy Igoe
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Posted: 7th Mar 2003 22:57
Funny - now you mention it I can remember the games you mention - wheren't they 3D Construction Kit games? Yes it all comes back to me now - blimey that was a while a go - Spectrum / Amiga days!

Well that's somewhat inconvenient and being similar in concept (ie. both are game engines) then I surely do need to change it but I wonder, how long does a trademark like that last?

Pneumatic Dryll, Outrageous epic cleric of EQ/Xev
God made the world in 7 days, but we're still waiting for the patch.
Richard Davey
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Posted: 8th Mar 2003 01:18
Nah they weren't 3DCK games - well not in the sense that they were made with 3DCK, but they were produced by the same company (Incentive) who later released the 3DCK. Wow, it used some pretty fk'd up code! How about this:

NVIS 005
IFHIT OBJECT 005 THEN VlS
005

! Incentive are still around (in a certain way) so I would bear their trademark in mind when relating to 3D with the word "Freescape" !!

Cheers,

Rich

"Gentlemen, we are about to short-circuit the Universe!"
DB Team / Atari ST / DarkForge / Retro Gaming
Trisect Development
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Posted: 9th Mar 2003 12:28
I too gets a

"Could not load bitmap at line: 1235" error

????

Sig removed!
Andy Igoe
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Posted: 9th Mar 2003 18:02
Could not load bitmap at line: 1235

This is the matrix texture file and it is included in the .exe. I have had some inconsistency with included 2D media in DBPro and will review the way I distribute such media.

Thanks for highlighting it.

Pneumatic Dryll, Outrageous epic cleric of EQ/Xev
God made the world in 7 days, but we're still waiting for the patch.
Andy Igoe
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Posted: 10th Mar 2003 04:44
I have received so many emails about Freescape which involved many in-depth multiple page answers that I have decided to copy/paste them together and make an official statement to explain as many of the questions as I can.

Freescape is being renamed to Terrascape because I inadvertantly used an existing trademark. But what is Terrascape? Who is writing it? And what can it be used for?

Terrascape is a game backbone. It allows for large scale strategic and first person games set in open terrain. The landscape generator is fractal which meens there are an infinite number of recallable maps, and it is huge: 100,000 trees; 5,000 bushes; 17,500 grasses; and 1,000 buildings are placed on a map which takes an hour to cross at running pace.

It's taken over two years and 18 tons of coccoa beans to get the project to this stage, as a programmer things are often simpler when you write them a second time, or third... Terrascape is at version 11, and it's a highly simplified and optimised piece of code that's been a trial of devotion to me for some time. Earlier versions of Terrascape can be witnessed in several of my games, but the true modularity of the original concept is only now coming to the fore - even though some of my original plans are still yet to surface even in this version.

Aethetically Terrascape has been getting very positive feedback where it has been shown, some of the vistas it creates are stunning from mountain valleys, towns, villages in the hills, forests, lakes and a comprehensive road network it is all here and a few suprises too.

But what is Terrascape? In short it is a game back-bone. The engine allows for easy addition of new units and an editor provides the functionality to create custom scenario's, campaigns, death matches, multiplayer co-operative missions, head-to-head strategic games, tank duals... Whether you want to recreate day of defeat or a real time strategy game - it can all be done with Terrascape.

Authors can even customise features on the terrain such as the buildings to give the game an aethetic look for the setting of their game.

Who wrote Terrascape?

So far Terrascape is pretty much all the work of myself, Andy Igoe, but together with my brother Nick we are developing the next stage of the engine. Together we form Banshee Studios. The buildings seen in the current Alpha releases of the engine where designed by Glenn from Eclipse Entertainment and are used with permission. More buildings will be included eventually so that different aethetic results can be achieved.

My brother and I got involved in the home computer scene in the days of the Binatone, when we got a ZX-81 our tape deck didn't work so if we wanted to play a game we first had to write it. When times moved on and we got a Spectrum (with a working tape deck) then it was only natural that our programming advanced to the stage where we where completing and releasing games. Later we moved to the Amiga platform where we again made several releases, I myself for a time worked for the worlds largest Amiga software house, Scala, although I have since left.

So, what about Terrascape, how does it work and how can I write a game MOD?

Units, scenarios and campaigns can be added in a modular fashion using editing tools I am currently developing. I hope to be able to include up to 120 controllable units which will operate under the AI when not active and a theoretically unlimited number of enemy AI units (probably to be capped around 500 or so). These figures are mostly theoretical at the current time until speed testing has been carried out within the engine.

Previous programs have given us no speed problems with these sorts of AI numbers but there may be complications when adding multiplayer functionality as we've not yet tested this.

The scenario editor will include the ability to make cut-scenes using game graphics and overlay .wav sound samples. Scenario triggers will include such options as proximity, proximity secure, unit group destroyed, unit group disabled. We will be adding more trigger types during development upon the requests of our scenario authors.

Additionally future plans for Terrascape include RPG elements such as hailing, communication dialogues, multiple quests per scenario, equipment defined character meshes and NPC scripting tools but these have not yet been designed and are not intended for initial release.

It is our plan to include multiplayer, but it is very unlikely that the system will support the bandwidth necessary for MMORG games. It is not our intention to write MMORG capable software as we do not have the infrastructure to run such a system ourselves (being primarily hobbyist programmers) so the game is not being designed in a way suiteable for such large scale games.

Will it cost money?

Terrascape will be distributed along with a few single and multiplayer scenarios and a campaign for free. As shareware we hope to sell high quality additional game MOD's. The game modules will likely only be priced at around £5 Sterling (circa $8). The tools to write Terrascape scenario's will not be included in the freely distributed format and licenses will likely be sold seperately.

This is a major change of strategy for Banshee Studios as we've been on the programming scene for around 20 years (I am now 28 and Nick wont say, I was programming about the same time I learned to say 'no') and in that time have given almost all of our works away for free with just a handfull of exceptions (mostly those programs I wrote as part of my main job, but I actually managed to sell a few games when I was at school!).

Whilst I do not expect to earn a living from writting computer games I do hope to partly supplment my very poor income! I would be suprised to earn more than a few hundred pounds in a year out of Terrascape, but I think after all the years i've been giving to the digital community it is only fair that I can ask for a little given how corporate even shareware software has become in some industry sectors.

Scenario authors will not need DBC or DBPro to use Terrascape, the system is stand-alone and uses it's own simple scripting language. It is not intended to be a programming language or a 3D game making system - it is a game engine, for a very specific look and feel of game that Banshee Studios intends to use in it's own series of shareware games and some 3rd parties have expressed an interest in.

We are currently in discussion with a fair-number of other teams about the use of Terrascape as a backbone to their own game modules. However, there is no release date for the system as it is still in the early stages of development. We will not release the system ahead of time, we will not bow to public pressure. We are hobbyists.

After publishing a screenshot I was asked to release an .exe of the system and seeing no harm in that I publicly released Alpha 2 and my intention is to release another Alpha version of the system after DarkBASIC Pro Patch 4 is released. I am currently using DarkBASIC Pro Patch 4 Beta 3 and have resolved most of the patch 3 to 4 migration issues - the rest I hope to cure soon.

Please consider that currently it is an ALPHA version and has many issues, i'm not asking for feedback or bug reports at the current time but am happy to discuss and clarify anything which may affect your own plans for using the system.

remstart *** Explanation
Alpha = technology demonstration release only. Feature ommissions and bugs do exist, feedback is not sought.
Beta = test stage release, most if not all features implemented, feedback sought.
remend ***** End Explanation

Terrascape editing tools WILL NOT be made available for public beta, those beta releases will be restricted to our existing test teams. No new beta testers for this aspect of the project are sought at the current time, sorry.

If you are interested in developing a game module under Terrascape I would be happy to discuss what it can offer you and the features you would need from the system in order to make your game ideas work. However both myself and my brother take a dim view on those who do not finish projects and would preffer to see samples of current completed projects before making special alterations to the engine on your behalf.

So what is the future of Terrascape?

The screenshots you see now are not really that new to me, Freescape IX was truly monumental, much larger, featured day & night and localised weather patterns, hell it even had RPG features such as ultravision and visual spell effects... It ran too slow at the time, and overall I was not happy with some of the effects. Freescape X featured the first water splashes and dust effects, and i've still not got XI to look as good (but I will). Terrascape XI has done away with the unecessary with the emphasis being on plausability and completeability and that's why you see screenshots of it on the forums even though some earlier versions are further developed or in some aspects prettier.

I am currently working on the unit system which allows me to add tanks, infantry, helicopters or what-ever model I can get distribution rights for extremely easy just by the inclusion of a plain text data file.

Once this is finished I will be starting the same concept but for scenario's and building a scenario editing tool. Then on to a campaign linking tool. Then it is time to start working with the level designers to produce our first game in the engine, making additions as necessary for that game.

The first game planned is a mech warrior type game which is being developed in association with Eclipse Entertainment because it integrates very well without too many custom features needing to be implemented. After that we're looking at doing an RPG which will require some customisations to the engine, the RPG is not down on paper yet.

Currently the plan for the strategic elements of Terrascape works a little like this:

Scenario editor allows creation of platoons of up to 10 units (selected: 1-0) and up to 12 selecteable platoons (selected: F1-F12). Theoretically this allows for 120 units per side, although currently the engine is limited to 100 units total until speed tests are ready to be conducted. I hope to be able to include 'unlimited' AI's as co-operative or 1 player scenario's do not need to have the enemies conforming to a unit structure for selectability.

Some of the features of the editor will include the following, although this is not fully considered and designed yet.

Triggers to include: Proximity; Proximity secure; Unit Group Destroyed (unit groups are independant of platoons and manually set for each unit with the scenario editor); Unit Group Disabled.

AI mission sets to include: Seek & Destroy; Hunt (a variant of the former that will have the unit 'behind' the player waiting until strength in force is established); Move to waypoint; Barrage area; Take & Hold; Patrol Area. etc.

Other scripting tools will be included such as the ability to produce in-game cut-scenes and overlay .wav samples.

I hope to include multiplayer in both co-operative or head to head play. Producing multiplayer in a realtime environment is quite hard so it is unlikely the engine will support more than about 8 players at a reasonable speed, possibly more in small scale scenarios.

Strategic planning will be possible for the player via a 'map mode' that will resemble the scenario editor (why do things twice!).

Beyond that, it's pretty much up to the scenario builders as to how the game actually plays - i'll be building levels myself and have some ideas and i'll include features in the engine to make other scenarios possible.

Although the RPG is not planned yet I would like the characters to change appearance based on the equipment they are wearing, so reskinnable (recolourable) plate armour, leather armour, chain armour, multiple weapons and shields etc. etc. It'll be a lot of work on this method but that is what I would like to do if I can....

When it comes to modelling Terrascape currently uses frame 1-100 of animation for movement only, although other animations will be defined soon for infantry. Additionally the unit data file allows you to specify texture scrolling for tracked vehicles, front wheel limbs to turn, turret & barrel limbs for cupola control, etc. So the vehicles are very dynamically animated and very easily if you conform to just a few simple conventions. All of the effects are automatically range culled in the engine to decrease processor occupancy, of course.

I hope that has answered most questions and watered your mouths. As for an ETA - don't even ask.

Andy Igoe, aka. Pneumatic Dryll.
Banshee Studios

Pneumatic Dryll, Outrageous epic cleric of EQ/Xev
God made the world in 7 days, but we're still waiting for the patch.

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