Odd slow down with limbs and objects

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Lost in Thought

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Location: U.S.A. : Douglas, Georgia

Posted: 27th Dec 2005 14:05 Edited at: 27th Dec 2005 14:07

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If you make an object with lots of limbs and yet hide most of them, the FPS is still very low. With this test code there are 4096 limbs and only 1 is unhidden (12 polys) yet the max fps is 50

`display stuff
sync on : sync rate 0
set camera range .5, 1500
autocam off
position camera 0, 0, -30
hide mouse

set global collision off

cubesize# = 10.0
`make test object with 4096 limbs
a = 1
depth# = 0
wide# = 0
	`tall
	for j = 1 to 64
		`across
		for k = 1 to 64
			if j = 1 and k = 1
				make object cube 1, cubesize#
				make mesh from object 1, 1
				position object a, wide#, 0, depth#
			else
				add limb 1, a, 1
				offset limb 1, a, (k-1)*20, 0, (j-1)*20
				inc a, 1
			endif
		next k
	next j
calculate object bounds 1

set object collision off 1

for i = 1 to 4095
	hide limb 1, i
next i

do
	`mlook	
   rotate camera camera angle x()+(mousemovey()/2),camera angle y()+(mousemovex()/2),0
   if camera angle x()>90 then xrotate camera 90
   if camera angle x()<-90 then xrotate camera -90
   cx#=camera angle x() : cy#=camera angle y() : cz#=camera angle z()
   `simple flying movement
   if upkey()=1
      move camera 3
   endif
   if downkey()=1
      move camera -3
   endif

if rightkey()=1
      xrotate camera 0: yrotate camera cy# + 90: move camera 3: xrotate camera cx#: yrotate camera cy#
   endif
   if leftkey()=1
      xrotate camera 0: yrotate camera cy# - 90: move camera 3: xrotate camera cx#: yrotate camera cy#
   endif
   set cursor 0,0
   print "FPS : ",screen fps(),"  Polys : ",statistic(1)
   sync
loop
end

+ Code Snippet

`display stuff
sync on : sync rate 0
set camera range .5, 1500
autocam off
position camera 0, 0, -30
hide mouse

set global collision off

cubesize# = 10.0
`make test object with 4096 limbs
a = 1
depth# = 0
wide# = 0
	`tall
	for j = 1 to 64
		`across
		for k = 1 to 64
			if j = 1 and k = 1
				make object cube 1, cubesize#
				make mesh from object 1, 1
				position object a, wide#, 0, depth#
			else
				add limb 1, a, 1
				offset limb 1, a, (k-1)*20, 0, (j-1)*20
				inc a, 1
			endif
		next k
	next j
calculate object bounds 1

set object collision off 1

for i = 1 to 4095
	hide limb 1, i
next i

do
	`mlook	
   rotate camera camera angle x()+(mousemovey()/2),camera angle y()+(mousemovex()/2),0
   if camera angle x()>90 then xrotate camera 90
   if camera angle x()<-90 then xrotate camera -90
   cx#=camera angle x() : cy#=camera angle y() : cz#=camera angle z()
   `simple flying movement
   if upkey()=1
      move camera 3
   endif
   if downkey()=1
      move camera -3
   endif

   if rightkey()=1
      xrotate camera 0: yrotate camera cy# + 90: move camera 3: xrotate camera cx#: yrotate camera cy#
   endif
   if leftkey()=1
      xrotate camera 0: yrotate camera cy# - 90: move camera 3: xrotate camera cx#: yrotate camera cy#
   endif
   set cursor 0,0
   print "FPS : ",screen fps(),"  Polys : ",statistic(1)
   sync
loop
end

Using the same code but modified to use hidden objects instead of limbs the max is 60 fps

`display stuff
sync on : sync rate 0
set camera range .5, 1500
autocam off
position camera 0, 0, -30
hide mouse

set global collision off

cubesize# = 10.0
`make test object with 4096 limbs
a = 2
depth# = 0
wide# = 0
	`tall
	for j = 1 to 64
		`across
		for k = 1 to 64
			if j = 1 and k = 1
				make object cube 1, cubesize#
				position object 1, wide#, 0, depth#
			else
				clone object a, 1
				position object a, (k-1)*20, 0, (j-1)*20
				set object collision off 1
				hide object a
				inc a, 1
			endif
		next k
	next j

do
	`mlook	
   rotate camera camera angle x()+(mousemovey()/2),camera angle y()+(mousemovex()/2),0
   if camera angle x()>90 then xrotate camera 90
   if camera angle x()<-90 then xrotate camera -90
   cx#=camera angle x() : cy#=camera angle y() : cz#=camera angle z()
   `simple flying movement
   if upkey()=1
      move camera 3
   endif
   if downkey()=1
      move camera -3
   endif

if rightkey()=1
      xrotate camera 0: yrotate camera cy# + 90: move camera 3: xrotate camera cx#: yrotate camera cy#
   endif
   if leftkey()=1
      xrotate camera 0: yrotate camera cy# - 90: move camera 3: xrotate camera cx#: yrotate camera cy#
   endif
   set cursor 0,0
   print "FPS : ",screen fps(),"  Polys : ",statistic(1)
   sync
loop
end

+ Code Snippet

`display stuff
sync on : sync rate 0
set camera range .5, 1500
autocam off
position camera 0, 0, -30
hide mouse

set global collision off

cubesize# = 10.0
`make test object with 4096 limbs
a = 2
depth# = 0
wide# = 0
	`tall
	for j = 1 to 64
		`across
		for k = 1 to 64
			if j = 1 and k = 1
				make object cube 1, cubesize#
				position object 1, wide#, 0, depth#
			else
				clone object a, 1
				position object a, (k-1)*20, 0, (j-1)*20
				set object collision off 1
				hide object a
				inc a, 1
			endif
		next k
	next j


do
	`mlook	
   rotate camera camera angle x()+(mousemovey()/2),camera angle y()+(mousemovex()/2),0
   if camera angle x()>90 then xrotate camera 90
   if camera angle x()<-90 then xrotate camera -90
   cx#=camera angle x() : cy#=camera angle y() : cz#=camera angle z()
   `simple flying movement
   if upkey()=1
      move camera 3
   endif
   if downkey()=1
      move camera -3
   endif

   if rightkey()=1
      xrotate camera 0: yrotate camera cy# + 90: move camera 3: xrotate camera cx#: yrotate camera cy#
   endif
   if leftkey()=1
      xrotate camera 0: yrotate camera cy# - 90: move camera 3: xrotate camera cx#: yrotate camera cy#
   endif
   set cursor 0,0
   print "FPS : ",screen fps(),"  Polys : ",statistic(1)
   sync
loop
end

using objects with exclude object on instead of hiding gives you a 230 fps max.

`display stuff
sync on : sync rate 0
set camera range .5, 1500
autocam off
position camera 0, 0, -30
hide mouse

set global collision off

cubesize# = 10.0
`make test object with 4096 limbs
a = 2
depth# = 0
wide# = 0
	`tall
	for j = 1 to 64
		`across
		for k = 1 to 64
			if j = 1 and k = 1
				make object cube 1, cubesize#
				position object 1, wide#, 0, depth#
			else
				clone object a, 1
				position object a, (k-1)*20, 0, (j-1)*20
				set object collision off 1
				exclude object on a
				inc a, 1
			endif
		next k
	next j

do
	`mlook	
   rotate camera camera angle x()+(mousemovey()/2),camera angle y()+(mousemovex()/2),0
   if camera angle x()>90 then xrotate camera 90
   if camera angle x()<-90 then xrotate camera -90
   cx#=camera angle x() : cy#=camera angle y() : cz#=camera angle z()
   `simple flying movement
   if upkey()=1
      move camera 3
   endif
   if downkey()=1
      move camera -3
   endif

if rightkey()=1
      xrotate camera 0: yrotate camera cy# + 90: move camera 3: xrotate camera cx#: yrotate camera cy#
   endif
   if leftkey()=1
      xrotate camera 0: yrotate camera cy# - 90: move camera 3: xrotate camera cx#: yrotate camera cy#
   endif
   set cursor 0,0
   print "FPS : ",screen fps(),"  Polys : ",statistic(1)
   sync
loop
end

+ Code Snippet

`display stuff
sync on : sync rate 0
set camera range .5, 1500
autocam off
position camera 0, 0, -30
hide mouse

set global collision off

cubesize# = 10.0
`make test object with 4096 limbs
a = 2
depth# = 0
wide# = 0
	`tall
	for j = 1 to 64
		`across
		for k = 1 to 64
			if j = 1 and k = 1
				make object cube 1, cubesize#
				position object 1, wide#, 0, depth#
			else
				clone object a, 1
				position object a, (k-1)*20, 0, (j-1)*20
				set object collision off 1
				exclude object on a
				inc a, 1
			endif
		next k
	next j


do
	`mlook	
   rotate camera camera angle x()+(mousemovey()/2),camera angle y()+(mousemovex()/2),0
   if camera angle x()>90 then xrotate camera 90
   if camera angle x()<-90 then xrotate camera -90
   cx#=camera angle x() : cy#=camera angle y() : cz#=camera angle z()
   `simple flying movement
   if upkey()=1
      move camera 3
   endif
   if downkey()=1
      move camera -3
   endif

   if rightkey()=1
      xrotate camera 0: yrotate camera cy# + 90: move camera 3: xrotate camera cx#: yrotate camera cy#
   endif
   if leftkey()=1
      xrotate camera 0: yrotate camera cy# - 90: move camera 3: xrotate camera cx#: yrotate camera cy#
   endif
   set cursor 0,0
   print "FPS : ",screen fps(),"  Polys : ",statistic(1)
   sync
loop
end

If the limb is hidden and all collisions are set to off then what is slowing DBP down?

What else is there to consider in the calcs?

Could we possibly have an exclude limb on command?

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re faze

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Posted: 27th Dec 2005 17:35

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dbp probably has to run through all of the limbs for each loop thus being slower per render because of all the extra data. the hide object command prevents it from being rendered but still allows it to be altered, exclude object is faster but you would only use this if you are removing an object from a scene for an extended period of time, because an object is 'locked' while being excluded and you cannot set its properties.

Dont code slowly be SWIFT about it!

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Lost in Thought

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Posted: 27th Dec 2005 21:10

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That would explain somewhat the slowdown with the limbs though they should be stored in a heiarchical order keeping the data seperated to prevent this. All it should have to do is check if the object is set to be visible then one by one check if the limbs are visible. If not then totally ignore all of the limbs data.

DBP should also be setup to have a "changed settings" flag so all hidden objects' data is ignored unless the object has been changed. Any command that changes an object can turn this flag on and when it is updated, DBP can turn the flag off. So unless you are actually modifying any objects they shouldn't cause much slowdown as long as you have enough memory to hold them.

There should really be no need for exclude object at all, but since it works it would be nice to have an exclude limb to ghetto patch the other slowdown as they did with the hidden objects.

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Zealous

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Posted: 31st Dec 2005 00:05

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I agree, either 'auto exclude' hidden objects AND limbs if they arent being modified, OR give us a command to do it manually (exclude object limb objnum,limbnum)

All you need is zeal

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Zeal

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Posted: 9th Feb 2006 06:13

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Up you go. Please confirm me, this performance hit is unacceptable (seeing as how limbs are the only decently fast way to go).

All you need is zeal

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re faze

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Posted: 9th Feb 2006 23:59

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are zeal and zealous, the same guy???

Dont code slowly be SWIFT about it!

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Lost in Thought

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Posted: 10th Feb 2006 00:32

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yes

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Zeal

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Posted: 10th Feb 2006 01:20

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Yeah sorry

I had forgotten what email I used when I first registered Zeal, so when I moved back to Colorado I had to create Zealous, and was too lazy to get Zeal 'working'. (turns out I used a old email account from when I was down in Florida, back when Pro had just came out).

So im back!

All you need is zeal

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Zeal

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Posted: 14th Feb 2006 00:35

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Since Lee is kicking ass and taking names I thought this guy needed a bump

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Oddmind

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Posted: 14th Feb 2006 01:14

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Quote: "Odd slow down with limbs and objects"

ok... I thought I was moving a little speedily.

formerly KrazyJimmy

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Zeal

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Posted: 14th Feb 2006 02:21

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Quote: "ok... I thought I was moving a little speedily.
"

what?

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Oddmind

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Posted: 14th Feb 2006 05:29

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god I hate explaining jokes.

*looks at name*

*looks at word "ODD" within user name*

*Looks at word "ODD" within title of report*

*makes joke*

I have also had this problem with limbs slowing down my framerates... of course doesnt everything these days?

formerly KrazyJimmy

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LeeBamber

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Posted: 14th Feb 2006 15:16

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Alas this is not a bug, more a fact of limb management. It is not so much whether the limb is drawn or not that causes a performance overhead, it is the additional work required within the structure of an object. Hiding 99% of your seperate objects also saves related tasks on those hidden objects, but the limbs of a single object must all be handled if the object is active. Such things as inter-limb texture sorting, collision checks, the simple process of nesting through 4000 limbs, etc. It all adds up. It also sounds like you have found the preferred method of entity management through seperate objects tied in with the exclude object command. Using limbs should be done with full consideration of the performance hit of this many limbs in the root of an active object. There is more than one way to program a cat

"Small, smart, and running around the legs of dinosaurs to find enough food to survive, bedroom programmers aren't extinct after all

"

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Zeal

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Posted: 14th Feb 2006 23:04 Edited at: 14th Feb 2006 23:06

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This is perhaps the single worst piece of news ive ever heard for the future of of DBPro

Quote: "the limbs of a single object must all be handled if the object is active."

Please explain why, and just exactly what "handling" includes

Quote: "Such things as inter-limb texture sorting, collision checks, the simple process of nesting through 4000 limbs, etc."

Why is there no 'exclude limb on' command? It can be done for objects, why not limbs? Simply ignoring a limb would NOT cause this kind of performance hit, there are other things going on behind the scene (as you mentioned). Things that we SHOULD have the ability to turn off.

Have you ever tryed to create a high object count scene, then create the same scene with limbs? The performance difference is amazing. The bottom line is we NEED to use limbs, and thus they NEED more love.

PLEASE give this more consideration.

All you need is zeal

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Lost in Thought

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Posted: 14th Feb 2006 23:17

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It's a lose, lose situation always it seems.

Maybe one day DBP's object and limb management will be revisited. Until then I see no good way to do this sort of thing in DBP. It takes ages to load that many objects. Plus when you use levels from other modelling packages such as 3DWS, we have to break them up into our own seperate objects. We don't really have all the tools in DBP we need to do that just yet, though hopefully DBP will advance to the point of getting around to the feature request side of the force.

I don't see what is going on in the background though if the collision is turned off and the limb is hidden. Is DBP really that slow? I know you wouldn't harldy ever have 4096 limbs, I just made so many to amplify the problem. Why is there so much more overhead from having limbs instead of seperate objects? Further still ... if limbs are so slow then why was it chose to make FPSC using mostly limbs? I believe this is one of it's main slow downs.

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Zeal

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Posted: 14th Feb 2006 23:31

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Limbs are better than objects, period. Even WITH their current limitations, they still outperform individual objects. Its not really apparent in your example (I think partly because were just using primitives), but its true.

Take it from somebody who has tryed every method under the sun and finally settled on a single object with limbs. My terrain used to be a 16x16 grid of individual objects (they were clones too). Due to MANY of the problems you get with high object count, I ended up migrating to a single object with 16x16 limbs, and implementing custom frustum culling. Not only did I see a fps increase, but I greatly reduced the overhead thats painfully associated with a high object count (now I only had ONE object for my terrain).

Like I said, worst news ive heard yet for DBPro's future. This topic needs a closer look Lee. I really want to know why a limb cant be excluded from ALL aspects of checking/rendering.

All you need is zeal

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Zeal

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Posted: 15th Feb 2006 00:13

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I made a little example program thats a bit more practical (compares 256 objects to 256 limbs). As you can see the performance difference when everything is visible isnt that great (making the single object + limbs the clear winner, because it has such less overhead). However you will see limbs fall behind in a big way when you start to hide them. Excluding objects is the clear winner here.

So tell me again why a hidden limb would cause a loss of HUNDREDS OF FRAMES per second compared to a excluded object? Why cant a limb be excluded just like a object? Yes were asking for cake AND icecream, but is there really any reason why we cant have it?

Again, very discouraging if this topic is really going to be ignored.

Project attached, here is the source if you just want to look

sync on: sync rate 0
autocam off: position camera 8000,16000,8000
set camera range 20000,1: xrotate camera 90
set global collision off

`a square 2^4 quad
load mesh "lod4.msh",1

`***
`SET THIS VALUE to test a object terrain, or a limb terrain (0 = object, 1 = limb)
`***
tertype = 0

if tertype = 0

`*** indivdual object terrain
dim terobj(15,15)

`make the first object, clone the others
terobj(x,z) = 1: make object terobj(x,z),1,0
objid = 2
for x = 0 to 15
for z = 0 to 15
   if x <> 0 or z <> 0
      terobj(x,z) = objid: inc objid
      clone object terobj(x,z),1
      position object terobj(x,z),x*1000,0,z*1000
      set object wireframe terobj(x,z),1
   endif
next z
next x

else

`*** single object, individual limb terrain
dim terobj(0): terobj(0) = 1
`make a dummy object, otherwise DBPros auto culling will mess with things :(
make object cube terobj(0),10000: hide limb 1,0
set object wireframe 1,1

limbid = 1
for x = 0 to 15
for z = 0 to 15
   add limb 1,limbid,1
   offset limb 1,limbid,x*1000,0,z*1000
   inc limbid
next z
next x

endif

`---
`main loop
`---
`loopstart
loopstart = timer(): looptime = 0.001
do

set cursor 0,0
print "screen fps() = ";screen fps()
print "statistic(1) (polys) = ";statistic(1)
if mouseclick() = 1 then move camera 2000*looptime
if mouseclick() = 2 then move camera -2000*looptime
rotate camera wrapvalue(camera angle x()-mousemovey()), wrapvalue(camera angle y()+mousemovex()),0

`***
`Notice the difference when 'hiding' all but the last row. PLEASE explain why we cant get the
`same performance boost with hiding a limb, as we can with excluding a object!
`****
if spacekey()
if tertype = 0

for x = 0 to 14
for z = 0 to 15
   exclude object on terobj(x,z)
next z
next x

else

for x = 0 to 14
for z = 0 to 15
   limbid = (x*16) + z + 1
   hide limb 1,limbid
next z
next x

endif
endif

`--------
`LOOPTIME
`--------
loopend = timer()
a# = loopend-loopstart: if a# <= 0.0: repeat: loopend = timer(): a# = loopend-loopstart: until a# > 0.0: endif
looptime = a#/1000.0: loopstart = loopend

sync
loop

+ Code Snippet

sync on: sync rate 0
autocam off: position camera 8000,16000,8000
set camera range 20000,1: xrotate camera 90
set global collision off

`a square 2^4 quad
load mesh "lod4.msh",1

`***
`SET THIS VALUE to test a object terrain, or a limb terrain (0 = object, 1 = limb)
`***
tertype = 0

if tertype = 0

`*** indivdual object terrain
dim terobj(15,15)

`make the first object, clone the others
terobj(x,z) = 1: make object terobj(x,z),1,0
objid = 2
for x = 0 to 15
for z = 0 to 15
   if x <> 0 or z <> 0
      terobj(x,z) = objid: inc objid
      clone object terobj(x,z),1
      position object terobj(x,z),x*1000,0,z*1000
      set object wireframe terobj(x,z),1
   endif
next z
next x

else

`*** single object, individual limb terrain
dim terobj(0): terobj(0) = 1
`make a dummy object, otherwise DBPros auto culling will mess with things :(
make object cube terobj(0),10000: hide limb 1,0
set object wireframe 1,1

limbid = 1
for x = 0 to 15
for z = 0 to 15
   add limb 1,limbid,1
   offset limb 1,limbid,x*1000,0,z*1000
   inc limbid
next z
next x

endif

`---
`main loop
`---
`loopstart
loopstart = timer(): looptime = 0.001
do

set cursor 0,0
print "screen fps() = ";screen fps()
print "statistic(1) (polys) = ";statistic(1)
if mouseclick() = 1 then move camera 2000*looptime
if mouseclick() = 2 then move camera -2000*looptime
rotate camera wrapvalue(camera angle x()-mousemovey()), wrapvalue(camera angle y()+mousemovex()),0

`***
`Notice the difference when 'hiding' all but the last row. PLEASE explain why we cant get the
`same performance boost with hiding a limb, as we can with excluding a object!
`****
if spacekey()
if tertype = 0

for x = 0 to 14
for z = 0 to 15
   exclude object on terobj(x,z)
next z
next x

else

for x = 0 to 14
for z = 0 to 15
   limbid = (x*16) + z + 1
   hide limb 1,limbid
next z
next x

endif
endif

`--------
`LOOPTIME
`--------
loopend = timer()
a# = loopend-loopstart: if a# <= 0.0: repeat: loopend = timer(): a# = loopend-loopstart: until a# > 0.0: endif
looptime = a#/1000.0: loopstart = loopend

sync
loop

All you need is zeal

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Lost in Thought

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Posted: 15th Feb 2006 03:03

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Well all of my FPSC and personal game engine plans relied on this fix, the make and save mesh crashing at high polys, and of course the new collision system (hopefully at least it will be put in). I'll wait until the final U6.0 to complain though, as it's release will help me determine whether to stay with DBP or move on and maybe come back when it is further along.

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Lost in Thought

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Posted: 26th Feb 2006 23:38

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This is a bit better in U6. I get 96 fps instead of 50. Still sucks for 12 polys though.

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Zeal

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Posted: 27th Feb 2006 05:20

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Im getting a pretty decent performace increase in general. Dunno if they really did anything specific to this though.

All you need is zeal

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