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3 Dimensional Chat / I need a level making tutorial.

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Blazer
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Location: United States
Posted: 1st Jan 2006 00:16 Edited at: 1st Jan 2006 00:32
I know how to make a level, but I just can't seem to bring it to life. All my my levels are painfully linear (set in a strieght line).

[img=http://img442.imageshack.us/img442/5036/30uf.th.jpg]

The walls are stupid (it takes place in a forest so I made thick foilage walls, but thats not really realistic. I dont want to put cliffs around every side).

[img=http://img442.imageshack.us/img442/2391/25ui1.th.jpg]

I would like the player to wage fights in a variety of ways : melee, steath, ranged, magic, traps, ect... but I dont really know how to set that up. I also need to put landmarks in so the player wont get confused.

[img=http://img485.imageshack.us/img485/4272/16zi.th.jpg]

If anyone knows of a good tutorial I would appreciate it.

I discriminate against discriminating people....
new programmer
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Location: right behind you.
Posted: 1st Jan 2006 00:47
object>primitives>landscape

edit it a bit.
viola.

BiggAdd
Retired Moderator
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Posted: 1st Jan 2006 01:52
Ok Newbe heres the Deal. Not Everyone Uses Cinema 4D. Secondly those landscapes aren't for game purposes, they are there for your rendering needs. This Guy wants like a platform level of some sort. And we do not know what his program is.

Blazer i do not think there is such thing as a level editor. What i suggest is Study other Levels made. Say if you own Halo or some other form of FPS. Go round and Study the level and see how they have acomplished things. Also, Study Pictures. Say if you wanted to Build a map of a City, study pictures of Citys and "Steal"some of there structures Etc.

Also one other important thing you must do. Never make it "Clean". You could have a big slodge of mud in there somewhere, or patches of dead grass. Also those trees, Dont use the same one over and over again, model different Trees.

Hope this Helps.


Truly Magical!
Mucky Muck Ninja
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Posted: 1st Jan 2006 02:04
For walls you can model some extra around the level, and either have an invisible wall, a fence, rocks, rives, or a combination of all of those. In halo, they make use of most of these, but they always have either a background pct or low detail stuff further out to make the illusion that the world continues "out of bounds". I don't know what kind of game you are going for, but having variety in fights is difficult. For stealth, you have to make the enemies have a line of sight, and patroll around. Their line of sight must be stopped by obstacles so that the player can hide. Traps is a cool idea i haven't seen in other games,you could make each trap an "item' that takes time to use,and drops a model of the trap at the players position. If you want the player to consider these different ways of attack you have to have obstacles that prevent others from working, or give them advantages over eachother. If you give the option of sneaking up on all the enemies, thats what players will do,so you have to limit that abilties, ex: put guards in positions where they can see everything. Lastly, to bring the level to life, try putting in ambient things, like birds flying, grass swaying, bugs..ect. Make sure they all have sounds too.

Im sick of Master Chief soo...ooga booga!!
Explain to me why some people pay money for 3d software? Its not 3d till its been blended. wwww.blender3d.org
Joh
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Posted: 1st Jan 2006 02:33
Check this post for some good level design theory.
http://forum.thegamecreators.com/?m=forum_view&t=61947&b=19
Megaton Cat
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Location: Toronto, Canada
Posted: 1st Jan 2006 02:42
Blazer, what tool are you using?


The cat era has begun.
BiggAdd
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Posted: 1st Jan 2006 03:45 Edited at: 1st Jan 2006 03:49
Quote: "Blazer, what tool are you using?"


I can think of a Few Tools on this Forum.

well the Icon is an L of some sort


Truly Magical!
Insanity Complex
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Posted: 1st Jan 2006 03:58 Edited at: 1st Jan 2006 04:01
Idea, start with a grid(I know Wings supports this but I don't know about others). Slim the outside squares, extrude them up as high as you want your level. Take low poly foliage/trees/rocks models and layer the outside areas of the level with them to make it appear that there are objects in the players way instead of some big invisible wall. Then you can extrude, smooth, rearrange the stuff on the inside as you want the level to look. It would take a while to do, and a lot of effort, but it could work. Just an idea.

Oh and DB Newbe...stop using premade stuff, it's just not right. Even if you toy with it, it can't and never will be your own...

Raise your god again, they don't give a damn. (Coal Chamber)
Blazer
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Posted: 1st Jan 2006 04:01 Edited at: 1st Jan 2006 04:24
it is milkshape.


Quote: "
Also those trees, Dont use the same one over and over again, model different Trees."


The truth is I have to keep my polycount under 10,000 (nuclear glory drain so much of my RAM). Beacause I want so many trees I just make them the 8 flat planes and the 1 stack cyndrical trunk. Besides resizing and rotating what else can I do?


Quote: "For walls you can model some extra around the level, and either have an invisible wall, a fence, rocks, rives, or a combination of all of those."


thats true but there are problem just because the nature of my game. I'm making an action adventure where the character can jump and swim. That eliminates fences and rivers. I dont want to use invisible walls so that really only leaves rocks (cliffs).


Quote: "What i suggest is Study other Levels made"


Thats probably my best bet. I like the landscape in Fable, but the levels are so small and take so long to load it gets anoying. However the graphics are great. Fable also used cliffs, fences, rivers, ect... but you couldnt swim or jump either.

Thanks for the help, still accepting more though

*edit* Just had an idea, I could group the ivisible walls with the object (fences, rivers, ect..). I was trying to think how good platformers blocked the players and I remebered God Of War. They would put a fence, railing, or cliff there to say "you shouldn't go this way" and if you tryed to cross it you would stop. God of War was a great game so it must be pretty effective

I discriminate against discriminating people....
Tinkergirl
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Posted: 2nd Jan 2006 02:33
Just remember to be consistant - if you put an invisible wall at the same point as a fence, make sure THAT fence type can never be jumped over. If you have a fence that you can jump over, make sure it looks very different to your 'non-traversable' fence.

Every person who plays a game will quickly pick up what is and isn't allowed. Also, in your first area, ensure the two kinds of fence are there - so the player encounters them early.

Player - *Hmm, ok, so I can move. Right. Got that sorted. Ah ha! I've got a jump button. Ok, I can jump on boxes - good. How high can I jump... Right - two boxes high, I see. Ah! A tall fence - I wonder if I could get over that.... Oh, wait - I can't. Ok. Fair enough. Well, I can't get out of this area, except... that fence is shorter, and looks different, I wonder if... Oh! I can jump over that one. Fair enough. Got it.*
Tinkergirl
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Posted: 2nd Jan 2006 03:04
Hmm, ok - sorry for the double post - I've been looking at your screenshots a bit more carefully. (Though, whatever I say here may well be made less usefull when Megaton does his tutorials that he's threatening).

In reverse order....

Landmarks. You're right to notice that without landmarks the player will get lost. As you're in a forested area, consider some of these as landmarks...
Rivers, waterfalls, large rock outcroppings, a large 'lightning struck' burnt tree, a ruined tower, circling crows, smoke from a fire/house, totem pole, lake/pond, etc

Stupid Tree Walls. To give the illusion of depth beyond your players movable area, create several 'layers' of thin scenery that hides the edges of the world. Think set design (wild west building styles). If you imaging the edge of where the player can go as a solid line - beyond that line, set up some 'one sided' bushes and trees (the player will never see the other sides), beyond those, some lower poly, bigger trees/bushes, and beyond that you can go down to flat tree backgrounds.
Give the impression of depth and the player will never be able to see behind it to the 'cheapness'. Multiple layers of detail.

Linear. Yup - it's hard to avoid being linear.
Have you considered putting in more undulations to your ground? Think about having an area where you go 'over the top' of where you've already been - maybe your path goes underneath a huge fallen tree-trunk or ruined archway, to eventually return to that archway/tree-trunk using it as a bridge over where you've already been.
Consider having a hub area - where several paths lead off. To make it very simple, maybe you need a key for the gate at the end of path 1, but you have to go down path 2 to get it. You've seen this in Fable.
Try alternative paths - maybe one path is more suited to stealthy people, and another path is more likely to be a straight up fight.


I'd have to disagree slightly with the earlier poster - not everyone will stealth if given the opportunity. Many people can't be bothered with stealth and just want to run through, fighting constantly. Your challenge will be to reward the people who do stealth, without punishing those who don't want to. Good luck
John H
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Posted: 2nd Jan 2006 07:03
First step to making a level is to NOT MAKE THE LEVEL. Sit down with a pen and paper and for five or so minutes, just write down anything that can be put in that comes to mind. Rocks, trees, be specific. Just get a huge list of things you can include. Next, another sheet of paper and start drawing. Just keep adding stuff and randomizing things a bit. Put everything on a sheet of paper and drop the paper on the floor. Where they land is where you slap them down on your drawing of your landscape. Theres a few ways to avoid being linear, just gotta be creative


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Tinkergirl
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Posted: 3rd Jan 2006 00:45
I agree with RPGamer that paper design should always come first, but I'm not as enamoured with the 'drop the design elements' method

The reason that linear is so natural for us, is that we think in linear terms:

"I do this, then this, then that, and lastly THAT!"

If you're working to have individual zones (a la Fable, and I completed that about 10 minutes ago - ending was a bit of a let down, but nice it let me back in) then you should start with an 'objective' for the zone. What do you want the player to achieve in that area?

It could be as simple as "Get to the exit", or "Kill all the enemies in the zone", or as complex as "Through non-violent means, stop people from entering the dark alleyway for 2 minutes while your thieving accomplice picks a lock".

Once you have your objective for the zone (and some zones might have more than one), you can work out what the player must do to achieve those objectives. This may well suggest geometry features you'll require (a dark alleyway, a pub to get people drunk in, a cart to pull across the entrance, etc).

I'm a great believer of a gameplay-first method of level design, because most other methods will only cause you pain down the road. Been there - done that!

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