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3 Dimensional Chat / Quick and easy, yet amazing models **Not gonna happen**

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Insanity Complex
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Posted: 3rd Jan 2006 15:05 Edited at: 3rd Jan 2006 15:44
There have been a lot of people I know who have wanted to do great things with modeling without the effort. This also goes for game making in general. I have seen, not only here, that people will come into the hobby/career thinking that they will just push a few buttons and type a few lines to make a great model and/or game. I am making this thread to let any newcomers the the hobby know: It Does NOT work like that. Modeling and programming are two very "difficult" professions that take years of effort and hard work to get to a point where you can make amazing games and models. This is not to say that it can't happen more quickly, but it is highly unlikely and you shouldnt have that mentality coming into the profession.
Also, you shouldn't give into criticism as a reason to leave the forums or to think that people are saying that you can't accomplish great things. Criticism around here is not to say that you can't do anything, but instead to say that you could improve upon what you have done. Sometimes it is harsh, but that's part of life, and it won't change. But you can take any criticism you recieve and turn it positive by thinking, "How can I improve upon what I've done to make it more appealing to people in general?" or "Is this comment coming from a valid point?" If someone hurts your feelings with what they say, just shrug it off, mainly because it is the internet and nothing that is said here will truly affect you in real life.
All in all, just keep your head up, and make sure that what people say is taken into consideration, but not taken literally in all cases. You can do great things, but it will take time. Everyone has to start somewhere!

[Edit] Oh, and sorry about the huge post, but I just felt that this is something everyone coming into this sort of hobby should know.

Raise your god again, they don't give a damn. (Coal Chamber)
Manic
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Posted: 3rd Jan 2006 17:41
seconded

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Megaton Cat
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Posted: 3rd Jan 2006 18:56
Modelling is hard. I quit.


The cat era has begun.
Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 3rd Jan 2006 19:32
Yey!!! Now all we need to do is get megaton to quit the forums and we'd all be happy

"I want to put a bullet through my head everytime I think of you!!!"- Slayer
Heckno
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Posted: 3rd Jan 2006 20:22
To add to Insanities topic...

Textures can make or break a model.....

Neodilito, Johnny Ree, and others have shown us (mainly me) that great textures can easily replace several polys of detail...

Another example is The Cats' purrfectly delicious buildings. They are not overly complicated and look fantastic because of the texturing details...

April will mark my 1 year anniversary of modeling, and this new year resolution is to devote more time to texturing aspects...
Insanity Complex
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Posted: 3rd Jan 2006 23:37
I just felt that this is an important thing for people to realize when they come into modeling and programming. Many people have gotten angry at me for "ruining" their dreams by explaining just a few of the necessary things to do. I'd like to keep this topic as serious as possible, but fun is and always will be...fun. lol

Raise your god again, they don't give a damn. (Coal Chamber)
John H
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Posted: 4th Jan 2006 02:27
Wait...$7000 modelling programs dont have a "Make ub3r 1337 RPG Character with Spikey Hair and All sorts of k00l armor" button? Well, I pirated this for no reason then....

/end impersonation


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dark coder
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Posted: 4th Jan 2006 02:41
actually yes most of the expensive ones have a nice big button to add spikey hair, :p

but yes i so know what you mean, quite often you see someone leave in a big fit cause someone said something other than that was great.

Halowed are the ori.
Insanity Complex
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Posted: 4th Jan 2006 03:20 Edited at: 4th Jan 2006 03:36
It frustrates me beyond belief when people are surprised at how time consuming and difficult it can be. My models aren't all that great, but they still take me lots of time, and I can live with that because I am learning, and I don't expect to be a guru after 20 mins at the compu...

[EDIT] I just found something from a while back(in DB Mads Free Models thread) that reminds me of the days when I thought that programming would come easier then it is.(I'm proud to say this mentality changed quickly)
Quote: "just a heads up, here soon I'll probably request one for an rpg...it doesn't matter which format. I'd like to do the concept sketches and such first..."

^^me before I knew what a variable or function was.


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Oddmind
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Posted: 4th Jan 2006 08:58 Edited at: 4th Jan 2006 09:00
I totally agree. Ive been modelling for 3 years on and off, i started with anim8or, then went to milkshape and some other obscure md2 modelling programs, and now im learning the intermediate commands with blender. Also organic modelling only came easier to me because ive been a isual artist for 8 or 9 years and have studied human anatomy for years as well. With all this experience this is the best thing ive cranked out so far...




This took me about 3 days in Blender. I work alot faster than some because i know what the human shape is supposed to look like or rather what i want it to look like. Ive since changed it to animate better but it looks relatively similar.

Im posting all this as a real time example and maybe to give some orientation to JUST how hard it is to be a modeller.

formerly KrazyJimmy
Van B
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Posted: 4th Jan 2006 12:35
I find texturing is far more time consuming that modelling, for example my most recent model is a M4A1 Carbine, 2 hours to model, 4 hours to UV map, and about 10 hours drawing the texture!. Animating and rigging is another few hours work, but for me texturing is the bit I dread.

With guns, you tend to have a lot of reference material and texture sources, so it's nice and easy, but you still have the extra bits that you'd never get a good image of, drawing these bits is very time consuming. Most pro-modellers have their own UV mappers and texturers working alongside them, damn how cool would it be to throw a model together then leave it to someone else to professionally UV and texture .


Van-B

Put away, those fiery biscuits!
Manic
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Posted: 4th Jan 2006 13:04
i've learnt a few tricks to speed up my UV + texturing time over the years (a tablet helps no end), and in fact, only yesterday i finally found out how to use masks in photoshop so that should speed my time up even more so. So now the thing that takes me longest is the geometry, just making sure ever single vert is where it should be... its enough to make you swear... it can take me weeks.

As no one's mentioned it yet, one of the things that i spend a lot of time on is looking at the human form and just drawing by hand. I did a years worth of life drawing classes, drawing a hairy, scary old man who said he got turned on by people drawing him, just practicing the human form, seeing where all the lines go...
and despite all this, i still struggle to get the proportions spot on.

Manic

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Insanity Complex
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Posted: 4th Jan 2006 14:59
I just started modeling maybe 2-3 weeks after I showed up here, so I'm still really a newbie to modeling. My next goal is to get started on learning how to UV texture and such because I can't do any of that yet. But I'm also waiting on my dad to send me photoshop 7 which he will be doing soon....I hope


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Chenak
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Posted: 4th Jan 2006 16:42
You don't know pain until you try to weigh verticies on a humanoid character to get a decent bone-based animation... especially when you want it weighed realistically it can rotate joints the same way as humans do.

The shoulders are the most difficult, if the shoulders are not made in the correct way and not weighed exactly the correct way you get polygon shards and shoulder shrinking I've still yet to get it right after 3 years of modelling
Oddmind
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Posted: 4th Jan 2006 20:09
^^^^ I second that in its entirety.

Manic what you should do is take your training wheels off and dont draw from a picture... imagine in your mind what the muscles look like... Thats how you learn how to do backflips is by taking the training wheels off.

formerly KrazyJimmy
Megaton Cat
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Posted: 4th Jan 2006 21:12 Edited at: 5th Jan 2006 04:52
umg I stared of a newb and wuz modeling stuffs liek dis and stuff rite?



and nuw i totally pwn and model stuffy liek this and everytihng!!!11one

i wurk for a bigbig company here its liek owned by my friend and we make games for the xbox360 and ps3 and i been modelling in the industry for 10 years, i am nuw 14 years old if anyone wunts to hire me pleaze post some modul requsts and ill make it ASAAAP i use maya and 3dsmax and poser but any1 here know any goodfree modellers??? thx here is sum of my work

clik hurr 4 mah workZ!!1

[MOD EDIT: Sorry Megaton, the image was stretching out the thread]

i am ben mathhis thats my real name i swear

can soome1 here plz teach me grammer and spelling end stuf? I drupped out of school becuse school sucksz. lolz thankzx


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Benjamin
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Posted: 4th Jan 2006 21:23
I REALLY THINK THAT IT'S 3 YEAR OLD DRAWING [b][/b]

Tempest - P2P UDP Multiplayer Plugin - 70%
Uncle Sam
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Posted: 4th Jan 2006 21:53
I know what you mean...modeling is HARD!

--------------
Uncle Sam
Manic
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Posted: 4th Jan 2006 22:42
oddmind: what? i really don't know what you're talking about, if you're saying i should imagine what people look like, instead of using reference... then, with all due respect, you're talking out your arse, mate.

Megaton: Ben Mathis is gonna come round and kick your arse... then i will for stretching the thread like that.

I don't have a sig, live with it.
Insanity Complex
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Posted: 4th Jan 2006 22:43
Nice Megaton...nice...


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John H
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Posted: 5th Jan 2006 04:51
OMG Megaton can you mak modelz for mai game plzZZ!!! it gonna be a mmorpg but its gonna be sweeeeeeeeet kinda lyk FFXII or WoW or lyk Runzscape only more better!!! LOLZ! if u help ill put u in da creditz!!1 dudee aim my name is xxLilSk8erPunk4LYF3xx lol ttyl bro!!!1

/end

Wow...that was incredibly hard to write like that...how do people do it?


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Megaton Cat
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Posted: 5th Jan 2006 05:05
I was really in the moment and it actually took a few minutes to wear off after I typed like that...

It's simply scary how badly some people can write and STILL live with themselves.


The cat era has begun. Shedding light onto out dark and humourless world.
Mike Inel
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Posted: 5th Jan 2006 06:52
Some things I want to share to the beginners:
Modelling isn't that of a hard thing... It just requires a lot of patience (A LOT, I repeat, A LOT) and continuous inspiration to the certain model/project you're currently doing.
Also, experiences and practices will make you work faster, like preventing of thinking what to do next. (Example: How do I combine the nose, ears, eyes, mouth, and neck? After 3 years, that wouldn't be a problem...)
Also, age doesn't matter. I'm still 18, but at least I have improved a lot since 15.
I usually encounter this when I was a beginner: While you're modeling and you noticed that your model would look sucky, it doesn't mean that the final model would really look bad... Editing/improving the model is the most time killing a modeller would always encounter...
Here's a sample of mine of the difference after a year of practicing modelling: (Both have rather few differences)
Before: http://www.altiz-studio.com/index_files/MachGalleryImages5.htm
After: http://img211.imageshack.us/img211/7051/redshot016pj.jpg and http://img231.imageshack.us/img231/7199/bluewip039sz.jpg

Just think "I just suck today, but i'll be a pro someday!"
(..... I think I sound korni today..... )

All projects have been cancelled due to some important matters (darn it!) but "The mask of Zorah" is still continued...
Epimetheus
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Posted: 5th Jan 2006 08:16 Edited at: 5th Jan 2006 08:17
Yeah it took me a while to get even to where I am now, which was about 4 years. It really is about practice and concentrating on your concept, there is no system to modeling other than knowing the subject well, just like any other art.

On a side note I was just on the 3d total forums and I noticed that the same "red angel" I saw there was the one in Mach's post! By the way mach incredible models, I am a little curious as to what your game is going to be about though, looks very interesting. Are you making it in Darkbasic? Anyway, once again, kudos on the insane models.
Insanity Complex
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Posted: 5th Jan 2006 15:00
Yeah, I've only been modeling for about 3 months, and it isn't hard persay, but it takes patience, and in some cases skill. Really, all it takes to be a good modeler is a little bit of skill and patience. But as you progress to higher standards you still have to build on that skill, which is another thing many people dont realize.



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Oddmind
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Posted: 5th Jan 2006 20:12
Manic im saying that as the next step in your drawing of the human anatomy, you should take away the pictures, which means if your ready for this then you would know what the muscles look like. I said imagine because if you know how they move and work you would be able to achieve different positions of he human form. I'm saying dont get a picture off of www.picturesofhumans.com and draw it exactly, im saying memorize what the anatomy looks like and draw it like ou see it in your memory.

formerly KrazyJimmy
Mike Inel
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Posted: 6th Jan 2006 07:07
@Epimetheus: I stopped that project and began with a new and sure one... (The board game ) And yes, i'll use DarkBASIC Pro . Thanks for noticing that (Well, it's the only post with stars, very noticable for me... )

All projects have been cancelled due to some important matters (darn it!) but "The mask of Zorah" is still continued...
Epimetheus
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Posted: 6th Jan 2006 20:21
Well I hope you get start the project again soon when you finish the board game.

Those models and your concept are top notch, one of the most creative concepts I've seen in a while, they would make an excellent RPG or similiar game.

Good luck with whatever you do.
Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 6th Jan 2006 22:29
Megaton sounded more of a chav with that post up there

What Mach was saying is completely right. All it really is, is an art, you learn how to use your media/tool, like how to use a paintbrush or a keyboard, and then then rest is up to you to work out, tutorials point you in the right direction, being an art, good quality comes through practice and skill and are not told how to be a good modeller, I mean I learn the polygon + Hyper nurbs technique in C4D for modelling soon after I got it, I've been using it for ages, and I still cannot make the impressive stuff or compare to Mach I just hate seeing so many posts of people thinking they can make the awesomest models easily, and the quit because its difficult...I never thought that when I first walked into the 3D Chat, nor do most people, but I guess it is inevitable, we'll have to put up with idiots no matter how many 'how to not look like an idiot threads' there are.

"I want to put a bullet through my head everytime I think of you!!!"- Slayer
Deadwords
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Posted: 7th Jan 2006 00:46
Quote: "I find texturing is far more time consuming that modelling, for example my most recent model is a M4A1 Carbine, 2 hours to model, 4 hours to UV map, and about 10 hours drawing the texture!. Animating and rigging is another few hours work, but for me texturing is the bit I dread.

With guns, you tend to have a lot of reference material and texture sources, so it's nice and easy, but you still have the extra bits that you'd never get a good image of, drawing these bits is very time consuming. Most pro-modellers have their own UV mappers and texturers working alongside them, damn how cool would it be to throw a model together then leave it to someone else to professionally UV and texture"

10 hours?! Texturing is my easiest part and it takes a short time... I made a M1 Garand a while ago and the texture was awesome and it took 1 hour to draw the texture. The model was 2 hours to make. The UV Mapping... someone make it for me, i don't have UU3D already, planning to buy.

Skalex - Nobody can ear you scream ... you're on a forum!
Manic
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Posted: 7th Jan 2006 01:10
Quote: "the texture was awesome"


you really shouldn't crit your own work, its bad practice.

I don't have a sig, live with it.
Insanity Complex
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Posted: 7th Jan 2006 03:34
Quote: "you really shouldn't crit your own work, its bad practice.
"


I second that.



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Xenocythe
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Posted: 7th Jan 2006 03:39 Edited at: 7th Jan 2006 19:40
I program, Model, and UV Map Texture...

I would have to say, it took me a while to do all of those three things good. I haven't mastered Modelling and Programming, but texturing is a breeze. I just can't draw the textures myself.

Modelling is very hard when it comes to finding your sole application. I looked through probably every modeller out there and finally I got Milkshape 3D which is a great prorgam. I love it so much.

Programming is also something I love to do, and a tip is- dont buy DBC, its full of bugs that the DB guys are to 'busy' to fix and the IDE just plain sucks. Get DBPro, way cooler, way better. Anyways, I got DBC when I was 10 and DBPro I got about a month ago.
Insanity Complex
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Posted: 7th Jan 2006 04:03
For some reason I sense a slap in the near future....and I'm definitely not psychic



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Xenocythe
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Posted: 7th Jan 2006 16:42
Who, on me? C'mon, I haven't done anything like post a bunch of useless threads or something.. why would they slap me?
Manic
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Posted: 7th Jan 2006 17:52
1. you're really not meant to display your age on here.
2. Your're certainly not allowed to advocate pirated software on here.


I'd edit your post before you get a bitch slapping.

I don't have a sig, live with it.
Insanity Complex
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Posted: 7th Jan 2006 18:46 Edited at: 7th Jan 2006 19:22
What manic said....

\sig test


3D UnitedUnder Construction
Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 7th Jan 2006 19:17
tut tut, I am an anti pirate dude, so really I wouldn't advocate that you pirated the software, as soon as you edit your post, I'll edit mine. And well really who shouldn't post that you did it (or do it in the first place) is for your own safety, because A: You could get into trouble B: There are anti pirates about like me, who'll flame you.
Also saying your age can put you at risk, I think you have to be 18 or above before its safe to post your age

"I want to put a bullet through my head everytime I think of you!!!"- Slayer
Xenocythe
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Posted: 7th Jan 2006 19:40
Alright.. I'll edit my post, but I can't beleive that you guys haven't pirated at least one thing If you haven't, I've got to say- dang, must be ebay.
Medieval Coder
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Posted: 9th Jan 2006 21:02
""difficult" professions that take years of effort and hard work to get to a point where you can make amazing games and models. This is not to say that it can't happen more quickly, but it is highly unlikely and you shouldnt have that mentality coming into the profession."

Then i must be special!

Or the water is over my head and im just breathin in calmly as if nothing is going worng
Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 9th Jan 2006 22:23
Quote: "If you haven't, I've got to say- dang, must be ebay."
I don't trust ebay, lol We have photoshop and Macromedia suite 8 because my mum is an illustrator and my sister works with digital media, I found my old version of C4D cheap on Amazon, DBP isn't too expensive Truespace is cheap also, and all my other 3D apps are either free for download or came free with a magazine, no piracy here dude

"I want to put a bullet through my head everytime I think of you!!!"- Slayer
Dodic
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Posted: 9th Jan 2006 22:32
yeap , no piracy near...


Megaton Cat
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Posted: 9th Jan 2006 22:55
Quote: "all my other 3D apps are either free for download or came free with a magazine, no piracy here dude
"




Joey Bondage
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Posted: 10th Jan 2006 04:44
I disagree with this post pretty much. I jsut started and i have excelled quickly. mabye i just have the gift

I know why Superman left Krypton. Earth was the only place he could get steroids!

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