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FPSC Classic Product Chat / Question about Support

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Wyatt Earp
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Posted: 2nd Feb 2006 17:46
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OK, FPSC is a cool product. But as we all know, lacks support, and attention to bug fixes and other issues.

Would you have rather paid $200-$300 for FPSC and have it ironed out and working - bug fixes and patches available in a timely manner?

To me, the inexpensive software is lacking support and attention.

I have a deadline to meet with the game, and if some of the bugs are not addressed in time, I too, will be abandoning this software and moving on to something else.

I've sent an e-mail to 'The Game Creators' expressing my thoughts and fustrations. I am awaiting their reply....
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tpfkat
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Posted: 2nd Feb 2006 18:07
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i bought A6 a while ago and its a tad more expensive,but isnt limited to just fps type games.
its got a model editor,terrain editor,level editor and scripting ( c++ type) editor. and its very powerful.
i think that they may have based fpsc on somthing like A6 but im afraid my money is now with A6.

the programmer formarly known as thicko.
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transient
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Posted: 3rd Feb 2006 01:05
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They already announced they were updating FPSC a month ago.

As for A6, Satan will be snowboarding before you get an FPS made with that software, good luck.

instinct is more valuable than intelligence.....
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=ChrisB=
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Posted: 3rd Feb 2006 01:07
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well, I could try to find some satan lying around here and ask Harris to ride with it on saturday......
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Wyatt Earp
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Posted: 3rd Feb 2006 03:07
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A month ago? Wow...I'm not impressed.
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transient
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Posted: 3rd Feb 2006 05:01
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Who cares.

instinct is more valuable than intelligence.....
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alex 1337
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Posted: 3rd Feb 2006 06:12
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This program is soooo bad. I absolutely hate it. Go buy the torque engine. Its much better and its only for 100 dollars.
http://WWW.GARAGEGAMES.COM
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=ChrisB=
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Posted: 3rd Feb 2006 08:34
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And u need to know c++...
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tpfkat
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Posted: 3rd Feb 2006 11:11
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transient:their are loads of fps games made from A6, ive played them, their not commercial games but they are a lot better than anything fpsc could do, also some flight sims,driving games,theirs also a lot of commercial software made using A6 so i suggest research first-open gob second.
so i guess satan is snowbaording.
the scripting is a basic form of c++ very close to basic,its easy to understand and theirs a lot of support.

the programmer formarly known as thicko.
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Vlad
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Posted: 3rd Feb 2006 12:00
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This whole thing is getting so unproportional that I'm starting to wonder who is the "bad guy":

The product? Maybe. A lot of expectations were built around FPSC, many of those expectations meet failure with the known bugs.

TGC? I don't think so. Everyone in every board is complaining that TGC is supporting another product. TGC is growing I think. And that growth brings some pain. Better days will come... there are issues and little information, but I don't think they are sleeping and doing nothing.

The users? Yes, many of them, ranting, complaining and cursing. I usually neglect people that rant, complain and curse.

Quote: "Would you have rather paid $200-$300 for FPSC and have it ironed out and working - bug fixes and patches available in a timely manner?"


For this price, you can get another engine, or buy some good books and do some programming yourself. There's a reason for FPSC's price: the target market. Flawless or flawed, FPSC would always have this kind of price.

Opinions about Torque and A6 really crack me up. A vast majority of users complain about not knowing how to script and they say you should try Torque (that you have to compile yourself) or A6, both of them need C like script to make something look close to FPSC in terms of AI, movement, et cetera.

On the other hand, both can deliver good material, remember kids, the fact that you don't know how to use a software does not mean the software is bad, means you are ignorant.

But please continue the rants, I need a good laugh from time to time.

The only lazy people that can complete games are genius. You don't look like a genius, so you better stop being lazy.
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ultraplex
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Posted: 3rd Feb 2006 12:01
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A6 is not that hard once u read the tuts,only thing i found with A6 that it takes a lot longer to create games,but the games look cool also there is quite a lot of commercial games created with A6
i was using A6 when i found FPSC by chance and was impressed with the way it was paraded on their website..
Upto now i have created 1 game and currently working on another but not gonna release em until an update is released (your know what i mean)........
So over all FPSC is not that good as they say....need more surport+updates until then back to A6..........

Support your local Riker 9 Chapter.
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Pulsar Coder
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Posted: 3rd Feb 2006 12:05
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For any engine that you can mention, there is always pros and cons, depending on the type of game you plan to do, what the engine offers, your skills, etc.

But for all of them, you will always have to put a lot of work, pushing the engine you choose to its limits, if you want to build something decent.

So, given a whole universe of differnt experiences, discussing whether one engine is better than the others is a waste of time. For one user may be XYZ, for another one may be ABC, and so on.

As for FPSC, perhaps it is not as powerful in the current state of the editor/engine as one may have expected, but one can still plan and develop what can be later improved with a new patch/version since there has been words of development in this regard by TGC:

Quote: "The first you are going to hear about the upgrade is when it (or the first public beta of it) is finished. There are too many people here with totally unrealistic expectations for us to even consider releasing any information about what is currently in development for FPSC."


http://forum.thegamecreators.com/?m=forum_view&t=70770&b=21
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Vlad
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Posted: 3rd Feb 2006 12:35
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Quote: "So over all FPSC is not that good as they say....need more surport+updates until then back to A6.........."


Not A6 for me, but something else. But I'm on the same league you are. I want to do something with FPSC, but not now and not this way.

Quote: "But for all of them, you will always have to put a lot of work, pushing the engine you choose to its limits, if you want to build something decent."


Quote: "So, given a whole universe of differnt experiences, discussing whether one engine is better than the others is a waste of time. For one user may be XYZ, for another one may be ABC, and so on."


Thank you Pulser. Good to see some down to earth, refreshing and well thought reasoning here. Erm... if we don't count uman in, he always does that.

The only lazy people that can complete games are genius. You don't look like a genius, so you better stop being lazy.
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tpfkat
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Posted: 3rd Feb 2006 13:26
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vlad.....you say im ignorent coz i dont know how to use fpsc..sorry but i do know how to use it,i can happily script but i dont because i didnt bother getting to deep as i knew that if the probs i had werent sorted then id be wasting my time.

fact of all this is that tgc has started rushing out software.
sure theirs lots of engines out thier....but fpsc is the buggiest so it will lose out to them.
this forum is about discussing products and things done with products,i bought it so im entitled to write about it and have my say
if you dont like it then dont read it but dont assume that i dont know how to use it...that is the real sign of ignorence im afraid.

the programmer formarly known as thicko.
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Vlad
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Posted: 3rd Feb 2006 14:05
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I wasn't addressing you tpfkat but the great ammount of users that say FPSC is bad and that everyone should choose another engine when they can't even script.

This is an ongoing trend: Try A6, try Torque, try bananas with cheese, from people that can't do anything with FPSC but complain. I believe you are not the case, so chill out.

And don't call me ignorant because I didn't call ignorant, just because I didn't.

The only lazy people that can complete games are genius. You don't look like a genius, so you better stop being lazy.
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uman
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Posted: 3rd Feb 2006 15:27 Edited at: 3rd Feb 2006 15:29
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As there are a lot of users commenting here I feel I should add my humble imput for anyone thats interested.

There are indie engines and indie engines and all are better at some things and more appropriate to use perhaps towards a particular end than others.

Now you will all know that I am quite a critic in my way of FPSC, but that is not at all picking on the engine - in fact I am critical of almost all indie engines in exactly the same way so its not FPSC as such alone with me as much as they by and large do not make it easy or very practical for indie developers to do what they buy the product for - and that is to make games - finished ones I mean. All of the indie engines I have used at least are a pain to use if you want to be productive and actually see an end result. Indie engines in reality more often than not means a product which is not really suitable for individuals or small teams to realistically achieve a completed game/end product of any quality if at all within anything like a sensible time frame. They are by and large for a lot of reasons much like FPSC in at least some respects non condusive to RAD due to the lack of user resources of various kinds. All have feature limits or issues and bugs in some instances serious ones which make success extremely difficult or almost impossible - nothing much to differentiate there. Some have obvious features that FPSC lacks or are poorly implimented in FPSC.

Having said that and being as said a reasonable and hopefully sensible fair critic of FPSC, I still use it in preference to any other engine currently available to me.

I have just compiled the first level of my game still unfinished as yet and can say that given enough hard work and thats the optimum phrase as all indie engines are going to require hard work from the user, it is possible to produce some really good stuff with FPSC - in its class equal or better than any other indie engine I have in many areas.

I am currently surprised despite the issues that I can maintain an fps of around 30 fps throughout wherever that is necessary - despite a massive amount of content of all kinds. This content is constantly being added to and via various optimisation methods which I continue to discover and develop FPSC it seems at least in indoor levels which I am currently working on has the ability to sustain credible gameplay in extremely complex environments, even surpassing some other indie engines I have and use now and certainly many others that I have used in the past.

I am therefore relatively happy to continue with FPSC development in the hope that the future will see some further advances to the product by TGC.

FPSC does have the potential to offer more than it does now without doubt if TGC decide to make it so - it is certainly an inovative product which deserves further development as the choices of engine available to indie developers in reality if they want to complete that game idea are very limited. With care and attention and a lot of hard work on the part of the developers FPSC could have a much brighter future to the benefit of all concerned.

Personally many issue I have to overcome, serious bugs that stop the show only one (.fpi script limit) as far as I can see at the moment.

Whichever indie engine any small indie developer uses its going to be a very hard slog - no difference there as said - the main benefit I see and the main reason I continue to use FPSC is that I can actually complete a competitive quality game and see it in action, albeit in my case with quite a vast amount of effort not to mention a little skill and enourmous volumes of thinking and resultant headaches...........

But thats the nature of the beast - gamemaking - it aint easy thats for sure.

I would not write off FPSC - somewhere down the road you may be surprised to see at least some great stuff completed with it and thas just what most other indie engines can say - not a lot more than that.

Whats required is a lot of hard work and effort, some creative thinking and a little help from the developers.

I wish you all the best in your endeavours.

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RJ is out Leave a message
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Posted: 3rd Feb 2006 16:12
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Uman, You took the words right out of my mouth! I'm surprised ChrisB "The wanna be!" and Mr" transient" Have not ran sacked you for your
opinions and pros. And they don't even know anything about your qualiys
and knowhows or even know the pain of wanting to break into this business only to have it slamed back into your face! I spent FOUR YEARS on "THE CONSPIRACY" then when I found out about FPSC I was under the mistaken impression that it would work for me. There I said it happy now? I'm a human just like the rest of you. And just like SOME of the others I suffered sacrificed to learn this craft too. And what do you a$$holes have to show for it? Instead of talking trash about 3DGS or even any inde game engine I want to see some real deal around here!
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tpfkat
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Posted: 3rd Feb 2006 17:59
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one argument: if anyone bought a game that kept locking up,or a peice of software that didnt do what was actually advertised ( or led to believe) youd be pi$$ed.
this is me.
i said for what it is its good and the price so dont take that wrong,but its badly finished, its sold as finished their fore it represents itself as it stands.
i hope tgc pull it up and make me eat my words as then ill have a good peice of kit to prototype with....until then i will rant and rave

the programmer formarly known as thicko.
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Wyatt Earp
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Posted: 3rd Feb 2006 18:03
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I've gotten word from TGC that an update is in the works, but no time frame was given besides "a few months."

This is encourging and discouraging at the same time. It means I will have to abandon FPS until a patch/fix/update comes out. I can't utilize FPS the way it is - it just doesnt work for me.

But I am encouraged that something is being done, I just hope it is done within a reasonable amount of time because without some bugs fixed - my version of FPS is collecting dust.
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uman
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Posted: 3rd Feb 2006 18:10
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tpfkat,

Nothing I said above would detract also from what you say. I cant disagree with your opinion.

Id better get out of here now.

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Just One Old Man
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Posted: 4th Feb 2006 00:46
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How are you doing, uman? Been a while. I almost jumped on this bandwagon with my monthly soapbox rant, but thought better of it. After all, this is their forum. Gets hard to beat up somebody on their own forum. Just doesn't feel right.

Just wanted to let you know I agree with your previous post about the hard work. I own Torque (TGE, TSE, and T2D), Game Maker, 3DGS, FPSC, and a few others, and you can't make a real game in any of them without a ton of serious work and effort. It's not just the art, content, coding, storyboarding, design document, and figuring out how to put all the pieces together. It's also having the good fortune to come up with an original idea that will make people stop and look.

I've said all along I really like the idea of FPSC, and uman is right about it being very innovative, I'm just a little put off by the non-communication thing. I could more easily handle working around the bugs and lack of features if I knew what was going on with the work on the engine.

I go to places like Game Maker, MilkShape, FragMotion, and quite a few others and not only are my updates and bug fixes posted regularly - but the authors are also always on the forums answering questions and handling issues. The main reason I mention the above programs specifically is because not only are they great programs that took a lot of effort to produce and maintain, but they were produced primarily by only one or two individuals who still somehow find the time to respond to customers. And they do it all for the price of a movie for two.

I understand what a lot of the users are saying, because it's hard to put much effort in a product that the developers won't at least acknowledge is still under development. Other than the monthly newsletter's "we're continuing to develop our flagship products" (paraphrasing). I'm not really sure I understand some other user's statements that FPSC is currently everything it needs to be. Anyone who has ever actually written a game for sale would know that FPSC in it's current state cannot produce such a game without a major Riker 9 type rewrite of the engine.

I've always been in favor of community help in development to move a product forward, but only when assisting the developer, not taking their place. I keep popping back in here, though, hoping to see good news. As I said, I like FPSC so far. I hope it moves forward. I find, however, I can't seem to leave the post without my little monthly. So...

[monthlysarcasticrant]
Hey everybody, I've finally finished that commercial game I've been working on. Doesn't really have any levels, but I know once it's out there some enterprising people will figure out how to make some for it. There aren't really any characters or features yet, either, but since there aren't any levels to put them in it's not a big deal. And again, once someone makes some levels I'm sure someone else will fill them with characters and things.

The save/load thing isn't working at all, but who needs it till the levels are created. Am I right? And there isn't really any real AI to speak of, but not having any characters - why would there be? Duh.

Main thing is that it is out there now, so I can sit back, take a break, and work on some other things. Most importantly, there are a few devoted people who really, really like my game as is, and will defend it to the end. After all, all it needs is a little love and attention from the people who buy it and soon it will be one helluva game. Can't wait to see it. And I'm already working on my next title.
[/monthlysarcasticrant]

Looks like it was a monthly soapbox rant after all. Sorry all....and carry on. And if the good folks at TGC are listening, we all like the products. Just stop around and say howdy sometime.

The other night I was staring up at the stars, wrapped in thought and wondering............where the hell did my roof go?
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tpfkat
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Posted: 4th Feb 2006 10:01
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wow...everyone goes onabout hard work and stuff......i personnally know how much hard work is involved, however i think the big debate and argument is about the buggines of fpsc and its limited use ( yes it is limited, compare it to all the other game dev systems out their and its basically 3dgm but slightly better).
Quote: "monthlysarcasticrant]
Hey everybody, I've finally finished that commercial game I've been working on. Doesn't really have any levels, but I know once it's out there some enterprising people will figure out how to make some for it. There aren't really any characters or features yet, either, but since there aren't any levels to put them in it's not a big deal. And again, once someone makes some levels I'm sure someone else will fill them with characters and things."


i think everyone knows whats involved in making a game, maybe actually read the complaints people have and you would know what to actually rant about.

the programmer formarly known as thicko.
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uman
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Posted: 4th Feb 2006 13:50
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Just One Old Man,

Quote: "How are you doing, uman"


I am still around. I am OK.

Still working with FPSC and hopefully will complete my current first couple of game levels to my satisfaction sometime later this year or maybe next - who knows. I am on target for everything except for - time frame which is slow to say the least as I most content is non default and dev is slow in such circumstances using FPSC.

In time I hope to post further screen shots in the appropriate forum to add to whats there and show the dev further and get a demo out for all to see, so look out for those later throughout 2006.

Hope you and everyone else are well.

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Wyatt Earp
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Posted: 4th Feb 2006 16:38
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Just One Old Man
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Posted: 4th Feb 2006 22:29 Edited at: 5th Feb 2006 05:02
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@uman: Glad to hear it. I'm anxious to see what you've been working on. I know what you mean about time, I've got a couple of dozen irons in the fire myself. Are you doing much dev in Torque right now?

@tpfcat: I understand what the problems are, and I've read all the complaints. I'm one of the people with the complaints. And the bottom half of the post was sarcasm "[monthlysarcasticrant]". There are actually two points to be made here: #1..Not everyone (obviously), but many of the users here really do think game development should be a 3 day point-and-click experience. #2..The main problem in using FPSC as it stands is that there are too many bugs and too many missing features. I started developing systems on computers in 1976, and it has been my career since, so I do understand some of the issues.

Primarily, I decided some time ago that getting really upset here about the state of things was a waste of energy, but I take time periodically to throw out a little sarcasm just to vent. Just amusing myself. Kind of like reading some of the posts here.

Take care, uman, talk to you soon...

The other night I was staring up at the stars, wrapped in thought and wondering............where the hell did my roof go?
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uman
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Posted: 6th Feb 2006 02:49
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Just One Old Man,

You can keep up with my FPSC dev in my screenshots thread in that forum. Nothing new there of late though. I wont post anything more until it reaches another level of quality.

Still working on adding stuff across the board and testing all aspects of the levels - animating the new weapons, animating other objects and generally filling in the high levels of detail. Working on spwaning objects to maintain optimisation of fps at the FPSC max limit of around 30 - 32fps throughout. Level 1 now still has some additional content I want to include as well as much detail on every single entity and world object to add special effects of bullet hit, sounds and so on - still some animated objects to add, though in effect the overall level construction is now complete. You can add stuff almost infinitum and thats just abot what I will do until its an acceptable level to me - then stop and move on.

I have not worked with Torque since they released the new V1.4 which will require me to rework anything I had done with V1.3 as V1.4 is not fully backwards compatible so everything has to be rescripted or otherwise updated to work with the new versions.

In any case Its an engine that I would personally use for what its best at and thats obvious to anyone - thats not what I use FPSC for so the engines are not competitive to me but rather complimentary in use for differing game genere or purposes. If you need large outdoor set type games where the percentage of such environments prevail then it obviously has some advantages over some other engines where it excels in high quality external worlds.

In fact my FPSC game has quite extensive external areas, much of it being set outdoors but I am still prepared to persevere with FPSC as I have not yet reached a conclusion that it cant or wont achieve the required capability with enough effort and workarounds and still return acceptable gameplay speeds whilst also allowing a completion of a working game or part thereof in an acceptable time frame which to me is measured in years.

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Pulsar Coder
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Posted: 6th Feb 2006 06:42 Edited at: 6th Feb 2006 06:44
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Quote: "3rd February 2006: Development work on FPS Creator Upgrade 1 is currently under-way. FPS Creator Model Pack 2 is also in production and will focus on modern-day scenery and objects."


http://www.fpscreator.com/news.html
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Just One Old Man
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Posted: 6th Feb 2006 06:55
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uman,

Been watching the screenshots and trying to keep up over there. You've been doing a great job with FPSC, I haven't invested that much time with it yet. Kind of waiting to see where it's going.

I think you'd be impressed with TGE 1.4, it's a big improvement. A lot has changed, but I like the direction they're taking. The last version of T2D (Beta 1) just came out - just four days after Alpha 4 hit the street - and it's really looking sweet. The main thing that's going to make it a hot item is the way T2D ties into TGE 1.4, opens up a world of possiblities. As soon as they finish the automatic ties to the datablock and tile editor (to name a few), game dev time will be cut in half. That's where I'm spending most of my time right now.

With what I've seen you do in FPSC, I'd love to see your work in a TGE/T2D environment. But you're right, the right engine for the right job, and I definitely still think FPSC is going to be great for it's intended purpose. Your work demonstrates that. Just hard waiting to hear if FPSC is really going to be finished. Keep up the good work, and I'll see you in a couple of weeks for the next little sarcastic rant.

The other night I was staring up at the stars, wrapped in thought and wondering............where the hell did my roof go?
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