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Geek Culture / Jobs :/

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Andy Igoe
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Posted: 14th Mar 2003 10:52
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OK - venting off time. Here's a story with no real point, very few punchlines, and an ending really not of Tolkien's standard.

As none of you know, because I never mentioned it, my carear ended about a year a go when the firm I was working for ceased trading - nothing to do with me I might add!

In the last year I have had a plethora of jobs up here in middle England, there's plenty of work up here but it is mostly industrial and not I.T. based. I would rellocate for a job happily, but of course living in the Fens our mailcart arrives too slow to hear about jobs in the hussle and bussle of English suburbia.

So it was with alarm that for my latest temp assignment I was asked to attend an interview - normally with cheap labour you just arrive, they point at a big metal thing of some description and get left to it - leaving you wondering if pressing the widget and the gadget at the same time will make that conveyor bet stop, might be a laugh afterall...

I duly attended, suited and booted. The job was a little different to most i've been launched into as this was actually office based - which sure beats moving non-descript metal object from piece of tarmac A to piece of tarmac B in the freezing cold English winter.

The interview went well and the lady asked me to start work the vew next day - which would be this morning. So I actually slept last night rather than program!

Just as I was about to leave the telephone rang, 'Hello, it's Joan here'. How strange I thought, the interviewer calling me at this time of the morning.

'I've been thinking about your qualifications and experience and have one concern I wish to alleviate, I would like you to sign a contract for a minimum duration of 3 months.'

Now before we go any further, i'd like to stress that this is a 'temp worker' position, paid at minimum wage of £5 ($*)8) per hour which works out as £9000 ($15000) per annum. In a country where the cost of living is around £12000 if you live on a shoe-string... and only eat by nibbling the fluff off the carpet.

The principle of 'temping' is simple, rather than sign on the doll like a tenant of Oxmoor (my local pits and Englands most notorious housing estate in 1980 something - only 1 riot last year), you go out and work hard long hours for very little reward...

BUT instead of the government paying your salary and your house rent and providing you with a shinny new Renault Espace to take your 18 troubled children to school (i'm not being specific here am I) you get the satisfaction of a job well done and in theory a little extra money because you are working rather than going on holiday to, oh I dont know lets say the Baellerics, or maybe Bahamas.

In theory, such 'temporary' positions are just that, temporary, lasting whilst you look for a proper job with a decent salary.

So I was more than alarmed to be asked to sign a contract - specifically 'NOT' a contract of employment (which would at least have given me some rights and a loop hole to use for the first month) but a 'commitment contract' limited to just that, my commitment to the company. In which I would remain loyal to that company for a minimum duration of 3 months or face the consequences of financial penalty.

What a load of dangley things! So it is with an empty wallet I go face another week having missed this weeks window of work opportunity (jobs are given out on a Thursday).

Gosh I wish the forum rules let me use obsene language here! I'm fumming.
Pneumatic Dryll, Outrageous epic cleric of EQ/Xev
God made the world in 7 days, but we're still waiting for the patch.
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Elric
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Posted: 14th Mar 2003 13:27
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If it's not a contract of employment - what are they going to do if you leave? (after you've been paid, of course!)

I'm no lawyer - but would this stand up court - even if they could be bothered to progress it. 'Employees Statutory Rights' and all that..

U could always take it the Sun if it goes pear shaped.. in a David & Goliath styley.

"The question isn't who is going to let me; it's who is going to stop me." - Ayn Rand
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spooky
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Posted: 14th Mar 2003 13:57
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I think company is just protecting themselves. If this job entails training you (sending you on a traing course, paid for by company) for a few weeks or so, why should they pay you and then you decide to leave after a couple of weeks after training. They would be seriously out of pocket.

I have a friend that did this a few times, just to get free training and wages and moved from job to job for a few months.

Gronda, Gronda
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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 14th Mar 2003 14:46
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you know really the pay isn't exactly terrible (not grand) but i mean wouldn't it be like a 35hr/week job (atleast)

£5 x 35 x 4 / 10% = £630 per month
... which would actually be £8,190 take home per anum

cept you'd only be with them for like 3months ...
well no matter how you look at it really stacking shelves is a better choice

but i always thought that min wage for people over 18 is £5.50 now, no?

Tsu'va Oni Ni Jyuuko Fiori Sei Tau!
One block follows the suit ... the whole suit of blocks is the path ... what have you found?
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Elric
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Posted: 14th Mar 2003 15:17
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dunno - i did 7 months shelf stacking on night shift after i graduated (many, many moons ago).

If you were unlucky - you got dogfood (really big tins). If you were really unluck you got the pasta aisle - which had the Tuna tins (really small tins. That didn't stack. At all.).

All run to military precision by jumped up little self-important supervisors.

Oh happy days...

Now thankfully long, long gone

"The question isn't who is going to let me; it's who is going to stop me." - Ayn Rand
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Ian T
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Posted: 14th Mar 2003 18:50
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Go to Iceland. There you will find a good job at a burger shop. Many money.

Er, nevermind.

--Mouse
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Andy Igoe
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Posted: 14th Mar 2003 19:46
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Well it ended with me going in to town and not coming out until I had a job... Found one after a few hours and did the last 5 and a half hours of the working day and they where impressed enough to ask me back next week - only they arn't sure if they'll need me the week after so i'll have to do it all over again :/

Still, 4 proper jobs to apply to today. Using my averaging system that will make:

1. Surname like "Igoe", he must be black - don't bother.
2. Did he say Irish on the phone? Fuck that he'll blow the place up.
3. Too many jobs not enough job stamina. Ignore this one.
4. Excuse me old chap but this is Cambridge jar! We all have degree's here so why don't you toodle off to the hobbo centre and find a factory who will take you, ok jar !?

Actually I live in Huntingdon, the majority of nearby I.T. jobs are in Cambridge where there is a definate graduate culture that I certainly do not fit in to...

I heavily over-rate most graduates when I meat them by crediting them as f*****g useless. This is a lesson learned from having been a manager, interviewed countless applicants, and having been let down consistently by so called educated people both technically and on a personal communication level.

Of course, once a graduate has been out in the real world and had a chance to catch up with reality they arn't too bad, this can be determined directly from their C.V. by noting the position of the degree as somewhere near the bottom of the back page and in small type.

Either you learn how to do a job by: A) Going to university, ignoring reality, and having some-one who opted out of real life in 1975 tell you roughly how it used to work when they where a lad; or B) Do the job. Learn how to mix, integrate and contribute to society and progress to a level of expertise that one can call professional.

Needless to say I don't get many interviews from vacancies in Cambridge. I have no degree, and poor qualifications.

I have worked for a sucession of bankrupts and cheats, leaving me substantially out of pocket in terms of lost wages and expenses and cluttering my C.V. with a few short term positions and making it hard to get a reference because the company has disapeared - even though I feel I performed admirably in their employ.

This Raven, is the reason why there are few opportunities for somebody of my calibre in I.T. I am either destined to work in a factory for the rest of my life, or keep temping in the dream of re-establishing my carear... For me, it is important to keep trying in the belief that one day soon I will suceed.

Pneumatic Dryll, Outrageous epic cleric of EQ/Xev
God made the world in 7 days, but we're still waiting for the patch.
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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 15th Mar 2003 02:20
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Pneu there are always exceptions to the rule mate
perhaps cambridge isn't the best area though - lol

i'd hardly call that midlands, i mean huntingdon is what - 50miles north of me ... and this has gotta be the worst possible place in the UK for bloody IT/Software based work.

cause its a bitch to drive into london, and its even more of a bitch to take the train (thats if you trust them) to go upto Derby/Leeds.

those are the cities you wanna try and get workin, because they're better for non degree guys like ourselves
if you wanna risk them taking a large cut, you could always get an agency ... i dunno - there is oftenly ALOT of contract Visual Basic Solution work going near London.
Some good contracts as well ... ya know the saying, if you never try then you'll never know

most of those companies don't care who your are, or waht you are, as long as you get the work done cause they're on damn tight scheduals. But a mate of mine who is like GCSE only + a GNVQ in ICT got a £25k for 4months work contract. And from a small project like that you can go onto bigger and better paid ones, perhaps even perminant posts.

Tsu'va Oni Ni Jyuuko Fiori Sei Tau!
One block follows the suit ... the whole suit of blocks is the path ... what have you found?
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indi
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Posted: 15th Mar 2003 04:48
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would like fries with that ?
maybe a 50c upgrade to a snowcone

http://www.lunarpixel.com

http://www.lunarpixel.com/dt/
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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 15th Mar 2003 10:17
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i got an iceland down the road... but their burger are hardly what i'd call nice

hey has anyone seen these mircowave burgers and such from ASDA? i only saw these like a few nite ago when i was shopping (yeah that surprised me at the time too hehee) well i saw a tonne of this ... easy no cooking nessary food, which is good for someone who can burn food by just thinking about cooking it

usually i'd say on the whole microwave burgers, and chips, etc... with the exception of the expensive Mcain's you just wouldn't feed your dog.
well anyways i got some of them (plus a nice selection of pot noodles, they should last me the next week ) ... wanted to try one, so threw it in for 2mins.

was surprised cause it was quite succulent, didn't taste of plastic or cardboard, the tomatoe ketchup was pretty good and the seasoning tasted fresh
just think if any of ya'll want a good burger, it was like 45p for 2 from ASDA ... which isn't bad cause it tasted better than a Maccy-Ds

Tsu'va Oni Ni Jyuuko Fiori Sei Tau!
One block follows the suit ... the whole suit of blocks is the path ... what have you found?
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Glennyboy
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Posted: 20th Mar 2003 13:32
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Those microwaveable burgers are the best thing ever. Our local Kwik Save does them too. Now that technology has advanced to a point where microwaveable burgers do not taste like microwaveable socks, I can finally fend for myself in this crazy world of meals that require saucepans and skills.

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Elric
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Posted: 20th Mar 2003 14:34
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If you're prepared to work away for periods of time - then contracting may be an option. I was a contractor up until a couple of years ago - and it certainly can be lucrative. However - the IT job market isn't what it was, and I wanted to stay in the area I'm in - so I moved back to a permanent position.

It also gives you flexibility to earn revenue from other routes (you can operate out of a limited company). I did some additional freelance work that went through the company books. This may be useful if you want to progress with games dev on the side?

However - getting the first position would be extremely difficult if you don't have the experience (or qualifications)(as I guess you know). If you're prepared to travel for the first contract and have reasonable expections on rates then it may be possible though (and certifications don't go amiss - MSCD, Sun, etc).

You may need to blag a first position (just be 'creative' - but credible on the CV), but as Raven said - once you get the first one under your belt - it's easier to move onwards and upwards (just keep your skill set relevant).

What with the job market the way it is and the IR35 legislation, contracting isn't as attractive as it once was - but may be an option to consider as it can allow you to work anywhere, knowing that you only need to stay there for 3-6 months, and not be stuck there permanently. Look into operating out of umbrella companies if you don't want the hassles of doing your own books.

Just keep at it, make it happen - and don't let the unmentionables grind you down

"The question isn't who is going to let me; it's who is going to stop me." - Ayn Rand
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lagmaster
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Posted: 29th Mar 2003 00:06
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PneumaticDryll i've seen that loads of times, even where you live can stop you even getting to a interview. let alone a job. even manager jobs are considered temporary now.

here's my story:
the one downside i've discovered to get into IT jobs without any qualifications. is to join a it training centre and they give you a job, but the downside is the pay, you get paid £40 per week to train, once you get a job they bump it up to £60 (it took them 5months to bump up my money), then if your good they increase it until it gets to £100 (the tax barrier). in my case it stayed at £60 all because i work at a school, my allum is £3,000. it works out to something less than £1.50 per hour.

fair enough i know that schools cant just get my extra wage money from something that isnt there. while i was at the it training centre i met other it people who went into jobs the same time as me. from what i recall when i last spoke to them, they were all on the £100 wage while i was still on £60. as you can imagine that would cause anyone to ask for more money, but i didnt want to do that incase i will lose my qualification and job. after several months i slowly slowed down my work pace and got an attitude. my brother clears £300 per week just for doing agency work. i mean you can get paid £6 in mcdonalds now which is higher than what most jobs in my town are like. so you can see a slight unfairness towards people who are training. i've been working in the school for 11months now and my qualification is getting nearer. i feel when i get my qualification they will just get rid of me and hire another youngster learning the ropes.

for some reason i'm now on a verbal warning and very much near a written warning, i've done my work right, i fit into the department, but still i get bad reports. i've only had 1 GOOD report in a year, surely that means i'll be out the door soon. also which might affest my outcome when i finish is i've now got a back problem and it's not shaking off, i receieved the injury at work, so currently i'm not allowed to do any lighting, or do anything serious with my back. meaning i can only do a limited number of things, e.g. using the office suite for jobs asked by my boss, small computer problems.

the other downside is that i suffer with migrains and i work with computers all the time, meaning after a while i get migrains very bad and have to take a few days off, that will be a downside for when i finish. i'm predicting i'll be out the door by end of may-begginning of june, so they cant train someone up for the new school year. i feel there is a slight unfairness which is annoying at times. i have to give my boss credit i was almost out of the door in november but he kept me on. but for example if i wanted to sit on my computer during lunch he expects me to work during the lunch break, since he works all the time, he expects everyone else to work as hard as him and work while at home. you can only get so much out of a person. the hours i work is what you most probably do 9-5 weekdays and while the kids have their breaks we do more work.

so as you can see, why get started in it? you can either go to college, go to a it training centre and get a job with low pay, or have a family member a boss at a company who is prepered to take you on. or you can choose another career and possibly get better pay and better working hours.

before you ask college wasnt a option. they gave me the "your not good enough to be doing it here at this college" attitude. so i only spent 1/2 a day with them and left.

heck i dont even know what job i'll be in (if i'm in one) in 6months time. all businesses expect you to work for less and get less rewards. it's gonna end in a mess in the long run.

lagmasteruk - http://www.lagmaster.net/ r.nash@ntlworld.com
specs: 1.2ghz athlon, 384mb ram, geforce 2 mx 400 (32mb),win2k
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BoB Vila
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Posted: 29th Mar 2003 00:42
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Man, the way Temp work is in the US is highly different. You usually get paid more for a temp job. Standard bottom of line in the IT field would be $18 an hour. as a Temp, you'd make $25 an hour. My wife works in a hospital, she is a full time employee, she just started at $17 an hour. But the temps get paid significantly higher. The main reason is the lack of benifits in a Temp position.

I was in a similar situation when I got out of the military. I had no education and I had spent my military service as an Grunt. So I had nothing to show. I was lucky to get a $7000 grant from the gov and got A+,Network+,MCP,MCSA certifications. And that was all I needed to open up the doors. That and good timing. But I was unemployed for about 4 months while I tried desperatly hard to find a job.

No offense PneumaticDryll, but I've heard some of the stuff you've said, and you sound like you are definatly in the High Genius range. You shouldn't you be cutting into Bill Gates wealth by now. Maybe you need to dream a little more and set your standards higher.

Bobvila.com made me take off my avatar! (dunno how they found out)
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Andy Igoe
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Posted: 29th Mar 2003 01:05
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Well thanks for the high compliment BoB I certainly started out as a genius, writting computer games when I was just out of nappies, having 3 games released before I left school.... For some reason though all my career highlights where over by the time I was 19.

To clarify though, what you are reffering too we would call contract work, which is different to temping. Temping is the low of the low of the low. It's a bit like in the American movies when you depict Mexico and you see that pickup truck come by the town and guys who want work in the fields hop on board. Only difference here is we have to make our own way to work and therefor have the expence of a car ontop of everything else!

Anyway, my CV which once got me job interviews for 90% of jobs I went for and offers from 4 out of every 5 of them now wont get me a single interview despite being pretty much the same document. I'm re-designing it this weekend in the hope that a fresh approach will change the playing field because once in I interview well, always have been lucky once I get my foot in the door - I guess that stint in sales tought me well (well they did have to re-write the bonus system because nobody else got any! - that was at Special Reserve, hello Tony if you are reading, can I have my job back plz k thx? I'm sorry and everything).

Pneumatic Dryll, Outrageous epic cleric of EQ/Xev
God made the world in 7 days, but we're still waiting for the patch.
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the_winch
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Posted: 29th Mar 2003 01:11
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In the Uk temp jobs are typically when a company wants a really bad job that requires no skill doing. A lot of temps temd to be unable to either work a full week or work for more than a few months without being sacked. The better temps usually end up being taken on if there job is ongoing.
I got lucky and my first temp job was for a company making rf cables mostly for mobile phone infastructure. The works intresting but lowpaid and because the company is loosing money there is no hope of a pay rise for lowly production workers.

Production jobs tend to be a bit frustrating especially for people with a brain. You soon learn more than the technical staff that earn 2.5-4 times more than you.
Then you have to put up with the management and the often unpredictable political situation. I can't go sick more than a couple of days every year and get low pay without bonuses.

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Andy Igoe
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Posted: 29th Mar 2003 01:33
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I hear that! When I first started temping I worked at Mission Speakers, the work was mindless but actually I didn't mind the assembly work because I could plan out what I was going to program in the evening, I didn't like QC so much though because I had to concentrate on what I was doing.

Of course they kept putting me on QC, apparantly the line manager was really impressed with the quality of the job I was doing, so to try and get back to assembly when I had the chance I worked twice as fast - holding two positions on the line.

It all amounted to nothing though, because I was 5 minutes late one day they docked me 15 minutes wages even though I made more than the time back up and I worked twice the speed when I was working too! I protested and they refused to budge, so I resigned.

Then they said we want you back, we'll pay the 15 minutes and the day you've had off! I expected this of course, because I was doing the job so well. However my agent totally mishandled it and assigned me to a double glazing company. It was dire in every sence of the word and dangerous too on ocassion. So after a few months of that when the supervisor got too cocky again I said "If you want to be cocky you should at least grow one first". Of course I was sacked on the spot.

I don't believe the problem is that temps cannot hold down jobs, it's just that at such low money - do you really care? I know if I leave a placement i'll walk strait into another one and sometimes get a few days off inbetween too program in

When I arrive at a company I immediately set out to be the best worker there, it's a matter of pride. Although I admit on my latest placement I could not keep up with Carol under any circumstances, my god that girl can work! *hats off* but her aside, i'm normally 40-60% faster than typical workers, and I work to a high standard.

If that company cannot appreciate what I do - and they never do because i'm just a temp - then I don't keep that standard up.

Only today I heard two I.T. guys talking about a problem, now lets put things in perspective here, they wrote the company software and I could have done better in just 1 hour with TAToads SQL dll. They made so many newb mistakes like a bright blue background - eye catching but for the poor people who have to stare at that screen all day I so often heard people complaining of eye strain in there - and they still havn't realised what's causing it! Imagine doing data entry one handed on the numeric keypad, and every six keys you have to click the mouse - of course touching the mouse moves the pointer.... They dumb newbs wrote it in a 4GL so they've not enough control over the interface, anyway that's besides the point.

They where talking about a printer and saying the rollers need replacing, so I said 'i'm sure those rollers will grip again after a quick run over with some emmery paper and parafin, or you could use platten clean or isopropyl alcohol'. They looked at me blankly (because i'm not supposed to speak whilst I work - I call the place the Monastery) then they carried on talking about calling an engineer out.

They assumed just because I was a temp that I didn't have a clue, so instead of getting the computer engineer standing two feet away with a tool kit in the boot of his car to fix their printer, they are paying £200 for a callout.

I cherish the day I will be valued again!

Pneumatic Dryll, Outrageous epic cleric of EQ/Xev
God made the world in 7 days, but we're still waiting for the patch.
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BoB Vila
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Posted: 29th Mar 2003 02:29
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Obviously you're talented in the computer world. There are very "few" of us who truely have the gift. I do a lot of IT / Development at my job. Which I was really really lucky to get. Its a medical billing software company, and when we do installs at these sites with their "so called" technicians who are utter tards.. it drives me insane. They give IT a bad name. I remember when I was a kid, I started my own ISP.. and I was pretty well known for being computer literate, I'd get a lot of "wannabe" people who liked computers, who were dedicated, but just lacked the apptitude to really know what they are doing. I think thats an increasing statistic.

All this is nether hear nor their. If you lived close to me, I could get you an IT or Programming job by tomorrow... anyways... What you really have to do is stop working temp jobs and start working for yourself. You've just gotta take advantage of the low IT budgets and take on a few clients. Go in and sell yourself to small medical practices, insurance offices, real-estate, law offices, and places like that. Which won't pay someone 30k a year but would pay out a couple hundred a month to make sure there computers don't run too "slow". You figure you get a few clients and you not only have steady income and great hours, but you totally crush any type of temp income. I've seen a lot of people do this, because you can get away with it with no overhead. One of the guys I work with gets an extra $1000 a month because he periodly checks on this computer at a hair salon. Comeon now...

Now I'm going to let you in on a little secret from a small Computer/Network company I worked at.. this was how the owner got started... what makes it that much easier to bag these jobs...... ...wear a Tie. Always wear a Tie. You might laugh, but it works. I'm not talking a suit or anything, just a tie. "It's seperates you from all the other guys". and just goes to show how superficial everyone truely is, but I swear to you it works. Just like how those guys thought you didn't know anything cause you were a temp, everyone thinks your an extreme professional if you wear a tie.
I think you should go for it, you've got nothing to lose.

Bobvila.com made me take off my avatar! (dunno how they found out)
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Dazzag
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Posted: 29th Mar 2003 02:40
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Seems to me (am 30 now.. sigh) that the IT industry (in the UK at least) is seriously on the downslide. When I left Uni (1994) jobs in IT were almost endless, and easy pickings near London (where I am now). But now things are very different. Many friends and friends of friends have been made redundant in the last couple of years in IT, and do not seem to be getting back onto their feet. Which is amazing from the picture only a few years ago.

Personally though I blame education. Seriously. Basically we have always been told to get into IT cos it is worth a lot. Also getting into Uni is made a lot cheaper and easier. Result is loads and loads of people fully qualified to do IT jobs. ie. saturationtastic.

As to interviews though, I have done a lot over the years, and yeah we normally avoided anyone without a degree. And that was a couple of years ago when there wasn't as many qualified people (haven't done one in years; work in IT and travel, which is really really not the best career since 911). We knew we were missing a load of talented people (most of us have "drinking degrees") but with so many people available nowadays it didn't really matter; you can be choosey.

Overall a lot of the IT industry is in the hands of employers and not employees now. I get paid pretty well, but hell my company gets paid 1000's every day for what I do, and a lot of that time I'm not even programming!

So, form your own business. That is what most of us have pretty much worked out we will have to do.

And just to go along with the above; I'd better go to sleep soon, as I will be going into work tomorrow. And not because I have to, or because I have loads of work. Nope. Just must meet money targets. And it's the end of the financial year soon.... hmmm... might have a saturday again one day... heh, and they used to pay more than just time for overtime....

Heh, should have been an accountant. And it's not funny anymore how similar Dilbert is. And it's really scary how uncanny The Office series was to us (taken over by another company, moved to Slough.... etc bloody etc).

God now I'm really depressed and angry. Must form new swearing forum or something.

Cheers

I am 99% probably lying in bed right now... so don't blame me for crappy typing
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Dazzag
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Posted: 29th Mar 2003 02:54 Edited at: 29th Mar 2003 02:56
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True about the tie. But I can't honestly remember anyone who didn't turn up with a tie (apart from the birds). More like do not wear white socks in UK (I almost didn't get my job because of that one, and that was almost a decade ago).

Good point about the fixing computers thing; a few friends of mine have done the same thing for good returns. And one friend now has 4 shops. Not bad. My problem is that I can't get past the not doing proper development programming bit. Then again, these days it is more paperwork than programming (bloody design, ISO standards, project management etc etc etc etc). Heh, you wouldn't believe how long a one line change takes now with ISO these days (used to be about 15 mins, WITH full release on all bases, now about 4 hours total, more like a week while wait for non-techs to release software - sigh).

My old lecturer actually told us that he freelanced for local companies and made around 10k a year (backwater place back in 1989) by writing software for smallish companies. And he earned another 10k by "fixing" his "bugs" that had reached trojan level (Time, user count, random hit etc). Walk in with solders and disks etc. Close and lock door. Play Lemmings for about... oh a week.... change trojan to twice the users, or 9 months time, then walk back out and pick up cheque. Nice. Illegal. But nice. Was a long while ago, and surely people have got more computer literate, but I don't know... compare some of the people I have employed with good CS degrees to, oh I don't know, a small goldfish, and sometimes it's a close call (one guy didn't know where the double quote key was, and was looking for the O key... we verified his degree was kosher BTW). So you never know. Although I was only repeating a story, and would never advise you to do such things...

Cheers

I am 99% probably lying in bed right now... so don't blame me for crappy typing
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Andy Igoe
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Posted: 29th Mar 2003 15:03
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hehe, i'm too honest to do something like that Dazzag! I guess I was just brought up proper or something *snicker*

As for a tie, I always wear a suit when i'm being Mr.Engineer unless it's darn hot out there. Swet makes more of an impact than a suit jacket, suit jacket > tie > smart casual > jeens.

However I cannot help but wonder if I should grow my hair longer and get geekier looking glasses, do you think that will help? Maybe if I say 'jar' a lot at the end of my sentences then people might not notice the lack of qualifications!

I've never wanted to be in business for myself. At least not in the support capacity anyway, i'd love to write games but then there's just not really any money in it. DarkBASIC is a hobby, and maybe it will suppliment my income if i'm lucky but in honesty I don't expect it to be a sole income.

What i'm doing at the moment is getting Terrascape done, and in it show the world what will hopefully be the most advanced AI routine ever seen in an RTS game I've been reading up on RTS AI and honestly believe the industry is not even up to the standard of stuff I designed 3 years ago, so I just have to put it into a project now and show the world what I can do With a bit of luck it'll make the difference between temping and a lowly paid permanent job in the realm of software making coffee for the better programmers.

Pneumatic Dryll, Outrageous epic cleric of EQ/Xev
God made the world in 7 days, but we're still waiting for the patch.
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Xoid
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Posted: 29th Mar 2003 16:56
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PneumaticDryll, make a portfolio of what YOU CAN DO! impress people with your skills and you never know

I work as a programmer, I have virtually NO qualifications, but I compiled a portfolio of what I could do at the time, damn they loved it :o) I even beat so-called pro's with years of experience, LOL.

seriously, make a portfolio, register a domain name so your programs can be downloaded etc... send letters/emails to EVERY company you can find, tell them what YOU CAN DO, if you interest them, ya never know

anyway, good luck, keep trying, you'll get there

key advice : DON'T GIVE UP!!!

Do not anticipate the outcome of the engagement, let nature take it's course, and your tools will strike at the right moment - from "Tao of Jeet Kune Do" by Bruce Lee
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BoB Vila
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Posted: 29th Mar 2003 21:09
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Yea, I agree with Xoid. You really have to show people your forward thinking. Best way is with a portfolio. I knew a guy who took one of those little Mini CD-Rs and burned his resume, and a powerpoint slide of some of the work he'd done. He said that always blew people away. He'd just hand them out like they were a business card.

When is Terrascape going to be done? and what exactly is it?

Bobvila.com made me take off my avatar! (dunno how they found out)
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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 30th Mar 2003 02:25
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problem witht he IT network in the UK is the fact that Location is everything.
London, Manchester or Newcastle - these are the main areas you must be close to else there is no work for you really.

But that said IT is a bloody broad field, from VB Programming to Computer Network Maintainance ... and to me atleast it sounds like Pneu is actually going the way of the Hardware rather than Software which he is actually has the experience within.

Contract work around London is extremely lucrative indeed, as long as you have the skills, which yes it's highly recommended that you compile a good portfolio i can tell you first hand you'd more likely be considered if you can show you can do the work than have some paper that says you can - but you're talking like 8-10months of stressful deadlines VB or C# programming however for around £40-50k ... i know a few mates who actually take 2/3 lower end £20k jobs finish them in a matter of 2months each and have the rest of the year off cause they can afford to. especially as the tax on the pay is under the highpay bracket leaving them with more in total (^_^)

its all about playing the system smart, and perhaps playing on being a minority as it were - perhaps when you put down nationality put down irish-british or something, if you can get away with it although a little dishonest is actually a benifit cause it makes the company look good at employing a 'minority' as it were (yeah i know irish arn't exactly a minority but the suits are stupid).

that aside you could always work on something YOU know will sell, perhaps a little demeening - but could grab a job at burger king or game something like that just for living money, then work on a paint package or a modeling package or something equally useful.
i mean just look at programs like Milkshape, it'd be a piece of piss to recreate that in DBpro (infact Monique did it in under 15hrs, which goes to show what an experienced coder can do) ... but you sell it for like £10-20 and suddenly you have a good revenue from people who can't afford 3D Studio Max or something - especially if you call it something like 'DarkBasic Studio Max' just put that in a search engine or two and cash in on the name.

perhaps slightly dishonest practises as it were, however it would certainly add some beef to that cv of yours to have "programmer of DB Studio Max" on it... they'll download use it and think - "yup this is good we want you"
as long as you don't put DarkBasic down as a known language it'll look really good (^_^)

Tsu'va Oni Ni Jyuuko Fiori Sei Tau!
One block follows the suit ... the whole suit of blocks is the path ... what have you found?
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Martyn Pittuck
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Posted: 31st Mar 2003 10:11
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I am not able to work for a few months, casue exams.

So i am doing loads of portfolio work.

Helping people out, making websites, temaplates and PHP libaries. My CV gonna look good

The Outside is a evil place to be, too much light, too much noise and too many distractions....
I went outside once and my FPS rate dropped to 5.
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Andy Igoe
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Posted: 31st Mar 2003 10:17
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Yeah I used to have a program that showed my C.V., linked to my former employers web pages and highlighted work i'd done and even printed out a nice hard copy for you too Didn't work though, infact when I got a job that time the guy refused to look at it because it was done on a PC and he was a Mac man... (I got the job by outrageously proclaiming 'at last, someone who shares my sentiment!' - Mac people are so shallow...)

Anyway back to the modern day. I'm not really focused on hardware to be honest, I can do either but when it comes to software I only really know DBPro... not very commercially viable. That is why I think of software as a hobby, because i've no grounding in VB or C++. I have used Visual Studio for a bit, but didn't really like it and settled on DB so I can't really claim it as a skill.

As for writting a utility, perhaps your right - but doing that would meen I can't make games for you guys... wouldn't you rather have more Banshee games to play than a.n.other utility?

Yeah I know, commercial realities and all that, but i've never been one to run for the money, and I guess that'll be my downfall.

Perhaps i'll write a paint program, there really isn't a good package that takes the Amiga DPaint approach - a real programmers art package, but then would you want an art package without all the fancy features of PSP or Adobe? Prolly not enough to register it anyway.

Pneumatic Dryll, Outrageous epic cleric of EQ/Xev
God made the world in 7 days, but we're still waiting for the patch.
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Xoid
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Posted: 31st Mar 2003 16:12
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PneumaticDryll, you sound rather negative, if you want to achieve you must work for it!! keep at it m8, c'mon DON'T GIVE UP!!!

Do not anticipate the outcome of the engagement, let nature take it's course, and your tools will strike at the right moment - from "Tao of Jeet Kune Do" by Bruce Lee
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Andy Igoe
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Posted: 1st Apr 2003 01:21
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Damn right I was negative, I wrote that just before I set off for work!

Anyway the most amazing thing to come out of this..... my private life is now officially a hot topic with a little red folder icon and everything!

Looks like the paperazzi have a new victim to hound!

Pneumatic Dryll, Outrageous epic cleric of EQ/Xev
God made the world in 7 days, but we're still waiting for the patch.
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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 1st Apr 2003 01:23
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well there's problem number one...
PneumaticDryll - "a real programmers art package, but then would you want an art package without all the fancy features of PSP or Adobe?"

the real point here isn't to impress anyone here, or even really make money - just more to make sure you have something that makes people stand up and think you'll be an asset

that said, i'd suggest you get stuck into some serious VB or C# learning if you want to do anything worth while in the IT industry... and if you want to continue developing games, C or C++
i mean really if you make a paint package in DBpro, add some basic things to it like Airburshing and Layers (just as improvements over DPaint) then you'll have a program that you can circulate around the Amature scene like Milkshape has and at £15 just to register believe it or not alot of people will go with it... why? because Photoshop 7 is around $300 and Paintshop 7 is around $150

if you have even half the features they have, which wouldn't be too difficult to make different brushes and simple effects or blend modes - then you'll have something good enough for the amature community.
and people just starting out are always looking for cheaper solutions to the highend and oftenly overly complex pro programs.

i'd suggest you spend a little time getting used to C/C++ as they are very good and extremely simple languages, all you have to do once you've learn the languages is remember how programs flow within them - like why you have headers and source code documents, which each are used for ... the libraries to use for what functions. After a while of getting used to it you should actually start to enjoy working in it - perhaps not like it, but atleast you'll enjoy the challenge

Tsu'va Oni Ni Jyuuko Fiori Sei Tau!
One block follows the suit ... the whole suit of blocks is the path ... what have you found?
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