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DarkBASIC Professional Discussion / DBpro VS C++?

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Leonard
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Posted: 20th Mar 2003 01:53
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hey everyone,

i've been using DBclassic version 1.13 for a couple of months now but it has never worked well and it crashes quite often so i'm considering either buying DBpro of launching into learning C++ API's etc. but i'm wondering, which is better? i've heard it said about DBclassic several times that C++ is better but is it better than DBpro? would i be able to create much better games even if it took me longer, or can DBpro match C++, API's, etc. ?
"Thou hast only to follow the wall far enough and there will de a door in it."
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Xoid
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Posted: 20th Mar 2003 02:06
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C++ is a powerful language, no offence to DB Pro (which is a kickass piece of software btw), C++ can be used for almost anything where DB Pro's focus is on games, although you have alot more POWER at your disposal with C++ it doesn't mean to say that you will create good games with it as this will greatly depend upon the individual.

BTW - Visual C++ with a fair amount of Assembly is used to create DB Pro, so go-figure.
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Xoid
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Posted: 20th Mar 2003 02:07
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oh yeah, one more thing, I have DB Classic also and it works fine, always has
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Eponick
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Posted: 20th Mar 2003 02:10
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If you want to program games, DBPro is %100000000000000000000000000000 better.
For normal apps use C++

Ive been using MSVC++ for a few years now and DBPro is a crap of alot simpler for games, but just as powerful.

And 3D with flat C++ is extreemly hard. Heck, i still havnt been able to learn it.

But in DBPro you can do it in just a few lines of code, would have taken hundreds of hundreds of lines in C++.

Thats why i ordered DBPro this morning ^_^

That and the fact my trial is about to expire

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Dr OcCuLt
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Posted: 20th Mar 2003 02:32
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if you game keep crashing in DB your not going to have fun when C++ crash on you DB is veay bullet-prof.

--Dr 0--
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Magefire
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Posted: 20th Mar 2003 02:51
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I've been using C++ for quite a while but it isn't good for games. Espically 3D games. However, if you actually get to know the API, you do get a bit more control at the cost of having to write many more lines of code and getting board before you even finish the character. There are really no built in object loading features (there aren't even any built-in 3D features). Many C++ compilers are more regulated than DB compilers and include more debugging features but if you want to make a game that isn't for a large company, you really must use a language like DB.

If you give a man some fire, he will be warm for a day. If you set a man on fire, he will be warm for the rest of his life.
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Steverino
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Posted: 20th Mar 2003 03:08
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Even trying to write a simple game in C++ is an exercise in frustration unless you're already a VERY good C++ programmer. It might make sense for those few hardy professionals who need to get every last drop of performance out of the silicon (less of an issue with every new generation of chips) but if you want to have fun making a project (and maybe actually finish it) stick with DB.

And the others are right: DB classic version 1.13 is very robust. If you're having problems with that, trust me -- you don't want to mess with C++!

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Eponick
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Posted: 20th Mar 2003 04:10
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Heh, if your having problems with any DB then you want to think about a diffrent hobby or profession

DB is probably one of the best game programming languages ive seen yet..

I mean, cmon.. You can learn the whole language by reading the help file a few times!!

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Xoid
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Posted: 20th Mar 2003 13:48 Edited at: 20th Mar 2003 13:56
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Dragonmage3000, I don't want to start a major argument here about C++ LOL but how can you say that C++ isn't good for games? I find that a ridiculous statement to make, C++ with the DirectX API is being used to create DB Pro, if it wasn't good for creating games then why are they using it to create DB Pro?

C++ is extremely powerful although more complex in syntax to most, anyway, for anyone thinking about learning C++ go for it, it's well worth it, but if you want to spend more time on the creative side then DB Pro is my choice as it's simple to learn and the less hassle you have learning it the more time you can spend actually on the creative side of games.

btw - If you want to get into the games industry then I would suggest getting to grips with C++ with DirectX/OpenGL as this will be a requirement.
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MrTAToad
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Posted: 20th Mar 2003 14:23
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Most commercial games are written in C/C++.

Once you get used to C/C++, it is fairly easy to use, until you get to use DirectX. Doing 2D stuff is easy enough, however, once you get to 3D then it becomes a real pain, making DBPro a very worthwhile investment. This was the main reason I got it in the first place.
Plus, with DBPro, you dont need to write your routines to initialise DirectPlay, DirectMusic, DirectInput etc as its all done for you...

Good news everyone! I really am THAT good...
http://www.nickk.nildram.co.uk/ for great plug-ins - oh my, yes!
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Incandescant
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Posted: 20th Mar 2003 14:37
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In summary:
ADVANTAGES
DBPro = easier to learn, quicker to use
C++ = more available features, less resource hungry apps

DISADVANTAGES
DBPro = big exe's, more resource hungry
C++ = huge syntax with lots of lines of code to do 3 lines work in DBPro

Basically for hobby programming, especially games, DBPro all the way.
If you want to get into the industry then C++, having said that DBPro is a good first language to learn as it will teach you the basics of programming such as iteration etc.

System: Athlon TBird 800Mhz, 320MB RAM, GeForce 2MX440, DX8.1
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BoB Vila
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Posted: 20th Mar 2003 15:32
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There is no reason why you couldn't use DBP and write DLLs with C++.
I've been programming for a long time, but never 3D, mostly gui database connection oriented apps. I've looked at some C++ Programming books and besides having a fairly high learning curve, its still going to be extremely cumbersome to develop, I don't have that much time to just drill down and work. I don't think that many lone developers will ever create a 3D game of any significance. Its too easy to lose motivation when you spend long hours programming and only have little to show for it. There are quite a few good things out there written by DB programmers and I imagine in the near future we will see some truly amazing games.

Anyways, I was in the same boat as you a few weeks ago. I bought DBP, and I'm very happy with it. Its nice to know that things are always being added, such as the Light Gun and the P5 Glove. + you could make your own plugin for any device. It's really not that limited at all.

Bobvila.com made me take off my avatar! (dunno how they found out)
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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 20th Mar 2003 16:08
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oki if this has been said already don't worry about it ... but i caught the first three posts and felt i know where this thread is going.

DarkBasic Pro Vs C++ ... there is no way to actually compare the two, they are almost totally different ends of the development stick.
Although yes DarkBasic was first created primarily for games development, DarkBasic Pro has been enhanced not only for extra speed but more flexibility.

however all the points made mean bugger all ... why?
because what WE think about programming languages doesn't matter at all because we've already made our decisions on what we'll be using. We are not you, we can't tell you how easi or hard YOU will find it ... we can't tell you which is better for YOUR style of programming. All we can do is state the technical facts - which really are impossible with languages which are both infinately expandable.

Try both, stick with what you like thats my advice.

Tsu'va Oni Ni Jyuuko Fiori Sei Tau!
One block follows the suit ... the whole suit of blocks is the path ... what have you found?
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Fluffy Paul
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Posted: 20th Mar 2003 16:38
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So we can all agree that, just like C++ is a higher level language than assembler, DB and DB Pro are higher level languages than C++ at least in terms of games.

Ending a sentence with a French word is so passé
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Glennyboy
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Posted: 20th Mar 2003 17:34
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DB and DBPro are higher level languages than C++ in terms of anything. BASIC is a high-level language. I believe C++ is a mid-level language, and assembler is low-level.

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Rob K
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Posted: 20th Mar 2003 18:14
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With DBPro - DBS learnt the DirectX API and how to create a fast efficient engine - so you don't have to

Current Project: Retro Compo. Entry.
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Xoid
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Posted: 20th Mar 2003 18:18 Edited at: 20th Mar 2003 18:19
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DB Pro is an excellent language I can't stress this enough, ok, I'm assuming now, but if Leonard wants to get into games programming he will most likely NEED to learn C++ with DirectX/OpenGL, no offence but you don't see companies such as Bitmap Brothers advertising for DB PRO coders, do you?

with the current features of DB PRO + hard work etc... You will most likely impress, which may open a few doors when it comes to games coding, because they 'see' what your capable of on the creative side, but you will need C++ to expand hence the DLL support.

anyway, I'm rambling now and it's boring everyone hehe, Sorry

but, seriously, learn (DB PRO) AND (C++) you can't go wrong there
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Magefire
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Posted: 20th Mar 2003 18:24
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Quote: "
Zoid: Dragonmage3000, I don't want to start a major argument here about C++ LOL but how can you say that C++ isn't good for games? I find that a ridiculous statement to make, C++ with the DirectX API is being used to create DB Pro, if it wasn't good for creating games then why are they using it to create DB Pro?
"


When I said that C++ wasn't good for games, I meant that it wasn't good for a single developer (mainly hobbists) to make games. I also was talking mainly about 3D games. C++ I think is one of the best programming languages ever created and probably will be for a very long time. I do have some experiece with OpenGL. DarkBASIC used C++ to make the engine, not the games. I do agree that if you were working for a big company, you would almost definatly choose C++ over almost any other language. If you are a hobbist game programmer or have a very small team, C++ would usually take too long to program a good 3D game even while using the GLUT libraries. Xoid, I basically agree with you and I think I didn't make my first post clear enough to understand.

If you give a man some fire, he will be warm for a day. If you set a man on fire, he will be warm for the rest of his life.
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Xoid
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Posted: 20th Mar 2003 18:40
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Dragonmage3000 wrote:

Quote: "DarkBASIC used C++ to make the engine, not the games."


Quote: "If you are a hobbist game programmer or have a very small team, C++ would usually take too long to program a good 3D game even while using the GLUT libraries"




LOL, ok, agreed they used C++ to create the 'engine'.

ok, so if your a hobbyist game programmer you may 'prefer' to use a games creation language such as DB PRO because it makes games development easier, it's still worth considering C++ however.
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Xoid
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Posted: 20th Mar 2003 18:43
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so, my choice and professional opinion, learn BOTH, DB PRO and C++ hehe
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QuothTheRaven
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Posted: 20th Mar 2003 19:53
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well, if you're looking to create games as a hobby, definately DBPro. It's perfect. If you want to make games in C++, it will take you more than several years to become that fluent. The two languages are ENTIRELY different, with different logics and much different syntax. C++ is very easy to get lost in, because it's so huge. If you use DBP, you have the option of ease and pretty much get started with only a basic knowledge of programming. C++, on the other hand, is a very hard language. Especially if you're programming 3d games, its dangerously trig and calc oriented, and you WOULD need to be physically educated in the language.

Take this for example: in C++, givin very difficult commands to learn and organize, you actually have to tell the computer how to draw space. you're going to have to program perspective from a 2d screen, how to not draw faces behind other faces, you're going to have to write algorythms to put textures onto an object, (and given that there are no commands designed for 3d, good luck with that...) I'm telling you, C++ is entirely different from DBP, and much harder. Maybe when you're out of college, C++ would be a good thing to do for professional games, in a company. As a hobby, forgeddaboutit.

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Andy Igoe
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Posted: 20th Mar 2003 23:19
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C++ will enable you to develop much higher quality products by customising your 3D engine to your exact needs.

If you aren't a top flight commercial programmer or dont have 4 years to write your project in then C++ will only give you the ability to write small and/or graphically inadequate titles (in context of 3D engine).

There are other 3D engines you can acquire that integrate in to C++ directly which may give you the control you require, but these wont be an engine built to your exact specification - in essense they will give you an engine like DBPro in that they are very general engines, the result is that you have to write your program in the more complex C++ language rather than the faster to write DBPro for absolutely no gain what-so-ever.

C++ enables you to achieve better results IF you are prepared to invest serious time in to the development of each of your projects. Otherwise it will just encumber you.

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God made the world in 7 days, but we're still waiting for the patch.
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MrTAToad
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Posted: 20th Mar 2003 23:31
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Indeed, C++ requires serious effort, which most people dont want to give - even I dont use most of what C++ has got - I just tend to use a mixture of C and C++, with C++ just being uses for classes.

Good news everyone! I really am THAT good...
http://www.nickk.nildram.co.uk/ for great plug-ins - oh my, yes!
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Leonard
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Posted: 21st Mar 2003 01:00
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I thought this might be an sorta unanswerable but i just wondered what everyone thought about the subject . But it sounds like DBP is the way to go unless i want to LONG time working on a game or work for a company. it would be VERY cool to work for EA or some other company but like i said i've only been coding for a couple months so it is just a hobby. I will probably learn c++ someday but it sounds like DBP would be better to start with.

Thanks,
Leonard

P.S.
eponick: it wasnt my game that was crashing, it was the editor and the media browser.

"Thou hast only to follow the wall far enough and there will de a door in it."
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