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FPSC Classic Product Chat / Help: Frame Rate?

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Emanuel
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Posted: 8th Apr 2006 19:11
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I am having trouble with the frame rate in the game. I am hoping somebody can point out exactly what the problem is. I have an area that is about 10 square by 10 square with 3 test baddies and a dynamic light. The frame rate is SO bad its not playable.

I am using a top of the line P4 with the latest Nvidia card. Before somebody says its my system I play Half Life 2 with everything cranked and can still run photoshop in the background. Yet FPS creator cant handle a small room with 3 guys in it?

How on earth are you guys making games with these terrible frame rates? I have read the manual from start to finish and read the boards and hope that I have missed some key component that will improve my frame rate so my game can be more then a closet size room.

Dont take this as me attacking anyone, or the creators. I am just hoping I completely missed something and one of you more experience folks can point me to the holy grail that will enable me to go further!
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Reuben
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Posted: 8th Apr 2006 19:50
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Thats one of the biggest bugs. It is NOT fixable!
I have to tolerate a framerate of 6!!!
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Benjamin A
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Posted: 8th Apr 2006 20:29
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I'm working on a game at the moment. One of levels has a 7x7x7 tiles room with 6 enemies in it. There are 22 static lights in it and a number of other scenery items. This scene runs 30-33fps most of the time, unless all of the 6 enemies attack at once, then the framerate drops to 27. Btw, not all of the enemies use the same script and they're not the standard FPSC characters, but a bit more higher poly models.

I do NOT own a top of the line P4 with the latest Nvidia card, I wish I did, still I get great framerates. What you want can be achieved, but you need to go about it differently.

My advice is, drop the dynamic light and change it into a static light. Dynamic Lights kill FPSC, use static lights instead.

Bored of indoor? Add outdoor to your FPSC games!
http://megagaming.taken.to
Need music for your games? Check the above link also!
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Emanuel
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Posted: 8th Apr 2006 21:53
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Ok in my experiment where I have 0 lights and 3 enemies the framerate drops down to near unplayable on the machine. What are you doing that keeps your frame rate up? When I did a google on this topic just to see, alot of sites are saying how great FPScreator COULD be if it didnt have such a crappy framerate that is not fixable. I am hoping somebody can prove it wrong and tell me the method to make a game that can be played.

Thanks Benjamin for your post, looking forward to your followup.
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Programmer of Power
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Posted: 9th Apr 2006 03:59
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I've learned that you have to make your areas smaller. A 10x10 block might not seem big, but I'm usually using 5x5's max and hallways to separate places. The less area that the computer has to render, the higher frames you get. I get from 25-33 FPS on all of my 4 full levels with enemies attacking and everyinthg. It is true that I have a good computer (I don't feel like putting the specs up, but it's good).

Smaller areas=Faster games

"I will work harder... if you ask me enough times."
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Lucifer
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Posted: 9th Apr 2006 05:06
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i've learned that i can make BIG outdoor or/and indoor levels with fpsc and get 33 frames per second!

kallikúkurerekkicool
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Reality Forgotten
FPSC Reloaded TGC Backer
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Posted: 9th Apr 2006 12:00
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Read this thread. it may be usefull to all of you.

Read me

"I am ready to meet my Maker. Whether my Maker is prepared for the great ordeal of meeting me is another matter."
-- Winston Churchill
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Benjamin A
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Posted: 9th Apr 2006 19:59
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Just to make sure it's not an issue with out computer..... please do download this demo http://files.filefront.com/landscapedemozip/;4901240;;/fileinfo.html once the level starts, please do press TAB and you should see the framerate. Could you tell me what you get for highest and lowest? It's a large outdoor FPSC level with some indoor building also.

Bored of indoor? Add outdoor to your FPSC games!
http://megagaming.taken.to
Need music for your games? Check the above link also!
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Les Horribres
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Posted: 9th Apr 2006 23:18
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Windows = sucky games.
World Size = Sucky Games.
Halls = Sucky games.
Crazy Stuff = Sucky Games.
Dynamic Lights = Sucky Games.

Hmm, looks like I made an acryonom...
What Would Hillary Clinton Do?
probally go shopping, but that is besides the point.


Windows create EXCESSIVE leaks due to the fact that FPSC renders EVERYTHING outside of them.

World Size Levels = no go. It isn't about being ABLE to do it, it is about being able to keep up with all the leaks. As your level size increases, the number of potential leaks increase.

Halls. One of the biggest misconceptions ever, and I keep having to tell people. Doors do NOT block the rendering process, You don't make a "hall" you make a boundry, a turn, something that prevents what is on both sides of the door from rendering, and sometimes you need to push it even more. A simple wall extending 1 or 2 units on both sides typically does it, or starting a passageway that turns away from the door. What will NOT prevent excessive renders is aditional doors, or going below, you NEED to turn or put up a wall to block those renders.

Crazy Stuff. Yeah, it is allways cool when you rig up a trap which drops a thousand crates on the plr, but it will hurt FPS like no tomorrow. just increase the force damage of the crates and drop only 5 or 7. Nore do you need to use counters on everything, or some half ass idea to make all the lights in the house flicker.

Dynamic Lights. Possibly the worst thing TGC added, and are set up in the worst possible way. If you want to change the color of your gun, just set up a zone and use a transparent hud image to "stimulate" light. Or something like that...

We all have our inner noob.
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Benjamin A
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Posted: 9th Apr 2006 23:54
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Quote: "Halls. One of the biggest misconceptions ever, and I keep having to tell people."
Very true, make turns and so on.

Quote: "World Size Levels = no go"
I do not agree. I wonder why a good number of people around here have been able to create world size levels that really did run well. If you follow the above rule you gave, you can create huge levels.

For the rest I do agree.

As for this whole large rooms issue with only a few enemies dropping the framerate, check the attached picture. I quickly created it to show that it can be done. The room itself is 7x12x2 tiles, there's a 14 tile hallway behind this room and to reach the room I had to cross a 14 tile long hallway also. There are 13 characters in the room (attacking me as you can see) and it runs at 25fps. I didn't edit the numbers, it's a true screenshot from a testlevel.

Bored of indoor? Add outdoor to your FPSC games!
http://megagaming.taken.to
Need music for your games? Check the above link also!

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Emanuel
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Posted: 9th Apr 2006 23:56
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Thanks everyone for your posts. Looking forward to more feedback Benjamin see my post above. Its not my computer. I do graphic design and am a die hard Half Life 2 player. I work on projects in photoshop and play Half Life 2 at the same time. Its definitely not my computer that is the issue and honestly GOOGLE has proven that I am not alone. Thanks guys for the tips.

I understand the source is available has anyone been able to mod it and improve some of the issues in the creator?
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Reuben
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Posted: 10th Apr 2006 18:27
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What is your FPS? As I said earlier, I get an FPS of 6!!!!!!
I tolorate it. And I dont know why.
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Mr Love
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Playing: MAFIA 2
Posted: 10th Apr 2006 19:15
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I have 32fps with 6 Guys in one room + alot of windows. I have P4 Nvidia 5700LE 512MB. But I had probs before I cleaned My comp from Serial probs and spyware + Virus. Use theese programs and it will be better...
-Kaspersky Antivirus
-Registry Mechanic
-Spyware doctor and ad-aware

Use the demos and test it! Please tell us later if it worked out well. (Im sure it will be fixed with this, otherwise its something wrong with windows I think..)
Good Luck!


Mr Love

Stop listening to rumors! Listen to the truth...
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xplosys
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Playing: FPSC Multiplayer Games
Posted: 10th Apr 2006 19:21
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@Reality Forgotten
@uman

Thank you very much for the thread you linked above. Not only is the thread filled with great info, it is a model of what this forum should be. Excellent topic/discussion/info. You have almost renewed my faith in this place.

Take a bow.

Everyone else, take notes.

Crazy Grandpa
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Les Horribres
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Posted: 11th Apr 2006 02:57
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Quote: " do not agree. I wonder why a good number of people around here have been able to create world size levels that really did run well. If you follow the above rule you gave, you can create huge levels."


Your screenshot is not "world size" that is just 1 room. My explaination of it is pretty explanatory , basically, as the complexity of your level increases, the possibility of a leak increases at an exponental rate. It has nothing to do with what you can see, it has to do with what you CAN see, but don't want to.


Mr. Love, read up on it from several 'good' resources, I would look though the PC World, and PC Mag... then though CNET for the consumer reviews. Don't just download any old software, as seen with the SpyBot tragedy (no, not Spybot: SD, there were several sites which released 'spybot' something that installed spyware, and told you to pay to have it removed). Even if they have a "award" look at the original source, takes me 30s to add any award to my software.
Strange thing is, the last thing I read stated the Microsoft was on top... was a while ago, but certainly worth looking into.

Looks deep into the screenie... Aiko... is that you? Shot fires out of monitor... now don't be upset... another shot, it was for the best. 59 and three quarters of a shot fire... I think I better leave now.

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Mr Love
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Posted: 11th Apr 2006 03:42
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I know a bit about safty and cleaner software, becouse I have tested them all! Now I am writing on My Mac G4, The best safty is to be offline! But the best antivirus isnt nod32 as many says, it is kaspersky. And Spyware doctor are slightly better then swedish ad-aware. For serial probs use Registry Mechanic! Theese programs are best by far!!!
Find them at WWW.DOWNLOAD.COM


Stop listening to rumors! Listen to the truth...
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Benjamin A
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Posted: 11th Apr 2006 16:53
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Quote: "Your screenshot is not "world size" that is just 1 room. "


Who said I was talling about the screenshot? That's not worldsize at all and I didn't claim that it is, the screenshot has nothing to do with the worldsize levels at all.

The screenshot is related to the room issue, as I stated in my post, but at times I do even wonder if you actually read peoples posts......

Next time please read before you post.

Bored of indoor? Add outdoor to your FPSC games!
http://megagaming.taken.to
Need music for your games? Check the above link also!
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Les Horribres
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Posted: 12th Apr 2006 04:11
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I do read peoples posts, but when you state a 'theory' and then randomly change the topic, it gets hard to follow...

I still think you are talking about world sizes after re-reading it, to me 'world size' is just about making things excessivly big, so I relate 'large rooms' to worldsize. Just the way my mind works...


Now, if you want an example of people not reading your posts, go have a debate with Jeku. Make SURE he disagrees with you at first, then present as much evidence you can. He will ALLWAYS ignore anything that is good for 'you', and sometimes just pokes holes in what you said, or find things you never said. Like, for instance, claiming that I am saying "windows XP runs off of dos". Like I am an idiot, what I DID say was "Windows hasn't changed much." Which was refering to something, which you would know if you read the post.

Or being **** because his superioritism is so great he can not EVEN try to understand what you ment, and because he is 'better' just wants to insult you. So if you say "Please read my post twice before posting" with the above context refering to an inability to explain something. HE takes that as "(qoute) Get this, this kid thinks he is SOO smart that we all should read his posts more then once."
ask what he ment, and explain what you ment
"No, you said you were smarter then me (once again being retarded)"
(strangles jeku)

Okay, now I am on the verge of getting extreamly annoyed... (exaggeration) I think I'll stop.

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uman
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Posted: 12th Apr 2006 05:03
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You can have almost any amount of content you want in FPSC. Certainly as much would be required to accommodate most game needs with complexity of many commercial titles which in themselves rarely contain as much detail as would exist in real life.

Accepting that one follows well known established guidlines of good level design principles there are no real certainties in FPSC as each individual level and user design may well have differing problems where fps will drop away.

A good guide in problem areas is to switch to wireframe mode in test run and try and ascertain from the wire frame which ploys and entities may be being drawn or activated unecessarily and find ways to remove them. Theres just no point in anything existing outside of the player or camera view at any time.

Of course FPSC may well include many objects outside of any current view and that may include objects in unseen nearby areas and also objects which may well be much further away at another side of your level. In the later case particularly obviously unecessarily.

By observing in wire frame and removing uneeded objects of any nature will certainly boost fps. As they are of no immediate use then they should be the first things that you remove from the equation in an attempt to maintain high fps - before any drastic actions such as redesigning your level or removing content permanently - try loading an unloading anything thats possible first.

That may help in many instances.

Given that you have a reasonably modern and decent system spec theres no reason why you should not be able to maintain accepatable gameplay speeds and fps except for the case of the serious lagg issue which unfortunately where it exists, cannot be overcome and is likely to remain a serious hindrance to good gamemaking with FPSC. Where it exists it will force a user to remove any offending ojects which cause it - theres no alternative to that other than live with it - which will render parts of your game somewhat unplayable and unprofessional in appearance.

The serious lagg issue has nothing to do with general overall game fps so removing its influence if it exists in a level should release back your overall level fps speeds to those areas it may have affected. Various objects in differeing situations will cause serious lagg - youll need to isolate which ones they are and remove them if you want to rid yourself of it.

Hopefully TGC may fix the serious lagg issue at some stage but may not so at the moment theres not much option - well two - live with it or remove anything that causes it.

Maintaining high fps in levels may require some hard work and experience wth FPSC but it can be done whilst still utilising complex level design and content.

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Benjamin A
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Posted: 12th Apr 2006 15:44
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Quote: "I do read peoples posts, but when you state a 'theory' and then randomly change the topic, it gets hard to follow...
"


I don't do that at all, I clearly state when I change topics.

Here's my first line of the post:
Quote: "I do not agree. I wonder why a good number of ....... and so on"


The I start a next paragraph like this:
Quote: "As for this whole large rooms issue...... and so on"


Thats'not just changing topics, that clearly outlining topics. If you call that randomly changing topics then you clearly didn't read the post well enough, sorry.


Now back on topic (this isn't a random changing but clearly marked....)

Uman, I completely agree. I'm getting the same good results as you do

OnePost, I'm seriously wondering if you ever created a complete game with FPSC. Often your claims made about what FPSC CANNOT DO, are way off. At times I'm just getting the impression you failed to accomplish what you wanted (for whatever reason) and just hang around to bash FPSC and tell us all what it cannot do, while it infact can do it perfectly well..... if you know how to use the engine.

That's what it all comes down to, learning to get to know the engine. Once you get to know it and it's possibilities and limitations, you can do a lot and create suburb and even pretty big levels. but it takes time and experimenting.

Emanuel, may I suggest de-installing FPSC and re-installing it again to see what the result will be after that. Something must be completely wrong if you get those results, it shouldn't be the case.

Bored of indoor? Add outdoor to your FPSC games!
http://www.aeilkema.dds.nl/mega/index.html
Need music for your games? Check the above link also!
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Les Horribres
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Posted: 13th Apr 2006 02:52 Edited at: 13th Apr 2006 02:53
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And I never said that it COULD not do it, I said that the 'chances of lag' increases. Even fully understanding the engine won't help you when you get that one lag that does not compute...

Surly you must have experianced the massive lag points that pop up ocasionally due to a model rendering error. (meaning you lag to 0), or errors caused by too much AI thinking. An 'extended fov', or the 'room below' leak. How about the 'room next to you', or the 'single sided texture'. And I know there is more, now, if you want to fully use the playing field and deal with them, do so, I know I have done so before (and am still trying to find the solution to a few). Your map will both look better, and play better if it is big.

But HAVE I bashed FPSC? I offer assistances in every way I can, I don't understand what you mean by that.

By the way, I am crazy.

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uman
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Posted: 13th Apr 2006 04:01
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Of course the fps max cap is too low anyway at around 32 fps. Both FPSC and any modern system can handle better than that when in the hands of a user with a little experience of level building with FPSC so theres absolutely no need for it to be capped so low.

The max fps cap at around 32 fps is set at what should be the fps of a finished game and not what any user should start at in an empty level when starting building. Theres no way that figure can be maintained throughout gameplay. A drop off to figures which fluctuate to fps figures in actual gameplay which are just not good enough is inevitable and its unecessary.

You may have constant fps at the max when a player is at standstill or in areas of of low AI activity but when it matters most - for instance in the heat of battle which is what FPS shototers are all about theres no way you will keep it there.

There are obvious options to this and no doubt there are also many differing opinions as to any benefits of them. Personally I believe that FPSC was set with the least best option of all by setting the cap as is. As with many other things in FPSC its a completely unecessary restriction.

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Les Horribres
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Posted: 13th Apr 2006 22:30
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If CB hasn't done so, FPS Management code may be in issue.

For instance, dynamically adjust the rate that scripts are run.

basically find the best amount of times they should run in 1 second, then

if timer=(SCRIPTSYNC*30/screen fps()):resettimer
or something similiar.

Even assigning Script Prioritys is good. So that you can have the script commands fpslessthen, fpspriority, to turn off 'fancy' scripts.

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Les Horribres
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Posted: 14th Apr 2006 04:51
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And a double post for a bump,

It would be a good idea to start a list of ways to improve FPS. Mabey not in this thread, but it would help alot of people.

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SN Lima
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Posted: 15th Apr 2006 06:07
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This works for me, I can have 6 baddies in one room which has a ton of entities. There is no problem... To answer your problems in 4 words..."Buy a fast computer".

American military member

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Benjamin A
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Posted: 15th Apr 2006 09:55
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Rett, he probably has a fast computer and besides you don't need a fast computer for it.... I don't have a fast computer and still am able to do it.

Bored of indoor? Add outdoor to your FPSC games!
http://www.aeilkema.dds.nl/mega/index.html
Need music for your games? Check the above link also!
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