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DarkBASIC Professional Discussion / Er, guess what! Patch 4 problems ...

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TogaMario
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Posted: 24th Mar 2003 22:05
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Well, my collision detection stopped working after this glorious wreckage of a patch sailed itself into my editing environment. Also, anyone know how I can fix the fact that my camera moves smoothly, but 10-15 seconds after i press the keys and move the mouse? Thanks all. Don't want anyone to miss out on their vacation or anything, but damn, he's leaving a lot of us hanging. Can we sue for false advertisement Kidding, kidding... Thank all.
P.S. This is what the alphabet would look like if Q and R were eliminated.
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MrTAToad
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Posted: 24th Mar 2003 22:08
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What are you using ? .X Files - work fine for me...

Good news everyone! I really am THAT good...
http://www.nickk.nildram.co.uk/ for great plug-ins - oh my, yes!
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Rob K
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Posted: 24th Mar 2003 22:33
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Are you using hand-made collision detection or in-built routines?

Current Project: Retro Compo. Entry.
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TogaMario
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Posted: 24th Mar 2003 22:48
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Rob K -
Built in routines, just box collision on all my tree stubs, with sliding collision stacked on that.

MrT -
Glad it works fine for you, but it doesn't work fine for me, so there's a problem ... it worked fine for me before this miracle patch.

P.S. This is what the alphabet would look like if Q and R were eliminated.
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MrTAToad
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Posted: 24th Mar 2003 23:06 Edited at: 24th Mar 2003 23:11
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Lets see some code then - and what processor/graphics card are you using ?

Good news everyone! I really am THAT good...
http://www.nickk.nildram.co.uk/ for great plug-ins - oh my, yes!
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TogaMario
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Posted: 24th Mar 2003 23:22
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I posted the code in the other thread you asked for it, but i've got an AMD AthlonXP 2400+ and a S3 SavagePro8 (integrated) ... patch 4 got a 3d pipeline overhaul, but it shouldn't have slowed down my computer THAT much ... crap, the worst cases of this happen when i'm amongst my trees (camera pause, then move, not "jerky" necessarily, as much as delayed)

P.S. This is what the alphabet would look like if Q and R were eliminated.
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TogaMario
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Posted: 24th Mar 2003 23:22
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oh, 32MB on that graphics card

P.S. This is what the alphabet would look like if Q and R were eliminated.
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MrTAToad
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Posted: 24th Mar 2003 23:35
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They only thing I can say about that card is - YUK!

Good news everyone! I really am THAT good...
http://www.nickk.nildram.co.uk/ for great plug-ins - oh my, yes!
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TogaMario
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Posted: 24th Mar 2003 23:48
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I know, lol ... sometime I'll have to get that GeForce4 Ti4200 128MB card ... drooool.

P.S. This is what the alphabet would look like if Q and R were eliminated.
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TogaMario
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Posted: 24th Mar 2003 23:48
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It doesn't even support OpenGL fully! I can't play NeverWinter Nights ...

P.S. This is what the alphabet would look like if Q and R were eliminated.
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MrTAToad
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Posted: 24th Mar 2003 23:58
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I suspect thats one reason why your having so much trouble...
Hope to be getting a Ti4600 in a couple of weeks - would be much better to play GTA3 on...

Good news everyone! I really am THAT good...
http://www.nickk.nildram.co.uk/ for great plug-ins - oh my, yes!
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rapscaLLion
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Posted: 25th Mar 2003 00:21
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get a 9700 why don't you, or an FX if you can stand the racket...

Alex Wanuch
aka rapscaLLion
Kousen Dev Progress >> Currently Working On Editors
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MrTAToad
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Posted: 25th Mar 2003 00:23
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ATI 9700? - No thank you
A FX is rather expensive at the moment...

Good news everyone! I really am THAT good...
http://www.nickk.nildram.co.uk/ for great plug-ins - oh my, yes!
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TogaMario
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Posted: 25th Mar 2003 04:33
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Really! Geez, let's see ... 100 dollars for Ge4 Ti4200 ... or 400 for FX. Hmmm, I'll have to hold on that Super-Fly Graphics Rig, if anyone would like to donate one to a starving college student, feel free!

P.S. This is what the alphabet would look like if Q and R were eliminated.
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SoulMan
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Posted: 25th Mar 2003 06:15
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Screw Nvidia, ATI is whooping it's ass.
BIG TIME.
You can get a 9700 Pro 128Meg Card made by Saphire on [href]http://www.newegg.com [/href]for $236
And that card can still outpreform Nvidias latest offering.
SoulMan

I am my own and own my am I
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MrTAToad
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Posted: 25th Mar 2003 10:19
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Only slight at the moment until NVidia update their (reliable) drivers, and incorporate DX9 shaders

Good news everyone! I really am THAT good...
http://www.nickk.nildram.co.uk/ for great plug-ins - oh my, yes!
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TogaMario
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Posted: 25th Mar 2003 20:38
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Well, it must be nice to have 200+ dollars to spend on a GRAPHICS CARD, but some of us have 500+ dollars in bills a month they must pay because they also go to school out of state... there is no reason to get anything above a 128MB GeTi4200 anyway, is there? (i'm just looking for Hardware Texture and Lighting ... Star Wars Galaxies ) BTW, does anyone have an 8x AGP slot support on their motherboard, and what kind of wonders does it work?

P.S. This is what the alphabet would look like if Q and R were eliminated.
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TogaMario
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Posted: 25th Mar 2003 20:43
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BTW, any other cards from ATI seem to be giving people problems, so NVidia it is bud.

P.S. This is what the alphabet would look like if Q and R were eliminated.
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EddieRay
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Posted: 25th Mar 2003 21:14
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Note... ATI already has their DX9 act together... nVidia is still scrambling (and complaining about 3DMark2003 - see www.tomshardware.com article). Don't base your video card purchase solely on how well DBPro patch 4 works with it (unless that is all you care about)... as a matter of fact, patch 4 works fine on my Radeon 8500, once you get past the initial wait for your creation to start up. And, you can always run patch 3 until that gets fixed.

The GF4Ti4200 is a good card. The Radeon 8500 (or higher) is a good card. Go for what you can afford. If you can get a Ti4200 somewhere for $100, go for it.

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TogaMario
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Posted: 25th Mar 2003 21:52
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I am, actually, going on what I can afford, and did support ATI at one time. Also, ATI does have it's perks (i heard about DX9 features, but I'm not gonna be able to afford something like that for another year or so), but not the DBPro, and I don't want to take that chance (already paid 100 dollars for something that isn't working ... ::cough:: DBPro ... Patch 4::cough:: ) One of my friends got the Ge4 card I want, and it ran Morrowind like a dream, and it was cheap, so I figured i'd flock to it also

P.S. This is what the alphabet would look like if Q and R were eliminated.
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heartbone
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Posted: 26th Mar 2003 00:22
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Grrrrr
It SHOULD NOT MAKE ANY DIFFERENCE what card you have.

The more you see, the more you know.
The more you know, the more you see.
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MrTAToad
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Posted: 26th Mar 2003 00:27
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Indeed, it shouldn't - but at the moment it does...

Good news everyone! I really am THAT good...
http://www.nickk.nildram.co.uk/ for great plug-ins - oh my, yes!
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Galiem
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Posted: 26th Mar 2003 17:26
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ATI Rage Pro Turbo in the comp I use at work... ack... All I can say is ack...

I get runtime error 1504 anytime I try to run my code. Dxdiag reports all fine, and I am using the newest drivers, which support DX 8.1

So... Have to code at work, but can only test the code at home. What a nightmare! COnsidering I only have about 2 hours free time each night durin the week, I have to deal with it, or shell out the cash for a better card for the PC at work.

Be glad you only have 1 comp to worry about.

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MrTAToad
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Posted: 26th Mar 2003 18:28
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Are you trying to use an unsupported graphics mode (ie 24bit mode ?)

Good news everyone! I really am THAT good...
http://www.nickk.nildram.co.uk/ for great plug-ins - oh my, yes!
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TogaMario
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Posted: 26th Mar 2003 19:12
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NO, EVERYONE has more than 1 computer to worry about if they want their friends to play. In my case, about 50 ... and I KNOW they all don't have 128 meg ATI or GeForce cards. I have a 32MB card that should run this thing fine, it runs GTA3 fine, why not a little test world? Pure crap ...

P.S. This is what the alphabet would look like if Q and R were eliminated.
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Mike Johnson
TGC Developer
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Posted: 26th Mar 2003 22:36
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TogaMario - can you send me your source code and any media - [email protected] And if you could provide as much information as to what is going wrong that would help.

Mike
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Omf
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Posted: 26th Mar 2003 22:37
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mousemovex() doesn't work when you have multiple instances after one another, it seems to do the first instance but not the rest.

it worked on patch 3.1

this is the first time i have used patch for, not good for first impressions, :-s

the code below shows what will not work in patch 4 but did in patch 3.1



also one more thing, cut / copy / paste still doesnt work in the editor

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MrTAToad
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Posted: 26th Mar 2003 22:58
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Copy & Paste certainly does here, although some CTRL+key shortcuts are non-standard.

Good news everyone! I really am THAT good...
http://www.nickk.nildram.co.uk/ for great plug-ins - oh my, yes!
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TogaMario
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Posted: 27th Mar 2003 00:10
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Sent Mike, and btw, THANK YOU again. It has pissed me off severely, but if it's something simple to fix, no harm, no foul. I have a 32MB integrated S3 SavagePro8 graphics card, and it ran this same thing more than well with patch 3, but the particles were fudged. Now with patch 4, the particles work great, but the camera waits 5 to 10 seconds to follow through with my commands, and my collision detection stopped working. Thank you so so so much!

P.S. This is what the alphabet would look like if Q and R were eliminated.
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CloseToPerfect
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Posted: 27th Mar 2003 05:10
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DBPro is just a hobby programmers langauge. If you make a commerical game it must work on everybodys system evem if you must scale down the features in the game. DBpro games only work on certin system configs and theres not much we can do on the programmers end to counter this.
I like programming in DBpro but I realize that It's almost useless for making anything for the mass market. I have some programs that I have bought that don't work great on my system but they all work. Can you imagine what kind of customer support nightmare you'll have.

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TogaMario
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Posted: 27th Mar 2003 05:57
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Who said I was making anything mainstream. I just wanted something that could show off some portfolio work (along with my friends), and be fun. I figured if I was going through all the trouble to animate these character cycles, why not have them made into a game and show the developers I want to work for that I understand both sides of the playing field (so to speak) But when you can't run a "game" with 100 trees (6 polys each) then what is it good for(do note that the speed increase promised did not apply to me somehow)? BTW, Star Wars Galaxies is gonna have a LOT of people pissed when they get home and realize they need a Hardware Texture and Lighting compaitable card, but why not do the same as them and say that if you don't have a supported video card, then don't get the game Disclaimers are great!

P.S. This is what the alphabet would look like if Q and R were eliminated.
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EddieRay
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Posted: 27th Mar 2003 06:20
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Certainly, when the performance and reliability is there, you can do something *real* with DBPro. The feature set is comprehensive. The commands for determining system configuration and programmatically adjusting detail levels, content, etc., based on the system running the game there in DarkBasic. The DB language leaves a little to be desired, but it is workable. As a one-man-band, you have a much better chance of actually making a commercial product to sell using DBPro than you do with say, DX + VC++. DBS has done an incredible job making it easy. Once the fire-fighting and bug-fixing starts to reach resonable levels, it will be much easier to take advantage of all the features without the programming dead-ends people deal with when they cook up some code and find a bug that makes them have to program around it. I don't believe DBPro only works on a small set of hardware... I think people just haven't gotten good enough at writing games for the wide range of hardware. Commercial games programmed in whatever language, with whatever tools, etc., all face this same problem - DirectX fails to work perfectly on all hardware and drivers vary greatly in quality. The reason commercial games work so well on a wide variety of graphics hardware is because they are coded to work around troublesome quirks with the hardware and the drivers or they target only a popular subset of video cards. If you look at READMEs for driver releases, a major chunk of each driver release is intended to fix a problem with GAME X runnning on video card Y, of for issues regarding some feature Z that isn't used very much in the current games in the market. How many driver releases did it take for Quake or Quake2 to run on your video card? A bunch. They were pushing the edge of the DX feature set, and not all driver developers were diligent enough to code to the full feature set, or even make what they did code work completely right.

Buck up lil campers... the issues with DBPro are a major pain in the neck... but believe it when I say the alternatives are WORSE... much WORSE.

Don't believe it when people say you can't do anything significant with DBPro... there is no reason why you can't except for maybe a few design tweaks here and there, and bug-fixes. If we keep getting a steady stream of that... and we're home free in coder-bliss.

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EddieRay
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Posted: 27th Mar 2003 06:21
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Sorry for the length... feeling a little talky-talky tonight I guess.

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TogaMario
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Posted: 27th Mar 2003 06:41
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I understand that we have a powerful, easy to use tool here (thanks to DBS). But I'm hoping that the next patch will a.) fix all these problems, and b.) come out in a week All that's stopping me from major fun game domination is a little problem called "patch didn't work as promised" lol.

P.S. This is what the alphabet would look like if Q and R were eliminated.
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EddieRay
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Posted: 27th Mar 2003 07:39
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I feel your pain. Send in those bug reports. Be relentless!

We will have our bug-free day of DBPro!!!

x-d

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TogaMario
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Posted: 27th Mar 2003 10:05
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Viva la bug free DBPro!

P.S. This is what the alphabet would look like if Q and R were eliminated.
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Richard Davey
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Posted: 27th Mar 2003 13:31
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"also one more thing, cut / copy / paste still doesnt work in the editor"

There were no editor updates in the Patch. If you've got the latest version of the Editor (from RGT) then cut/copy/paste will work perfectly.

Cheers,

Rich

"Gentlemen, we are about to short-circuit the Universe!"
DB Team / Atari ST / DarkForge / Retro Gaming
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the architect
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If DBPro is not intended for commercial use why the hell would it be could Pro?That would be false advertising.

While DB does not claim to run at the speed of c it I would expect it to be close behind if it was a compiler instead of an interpretor. In the 80's you could buy a compiler for spectrum and commodores which would convert basic into machine code. The result was significantly faster although it was never quite as fast as machine code itself.

This week in my current project, I added some Xtra work for my CPU which dropped my fps rate down to 13 - 28 fps. By reprogramming and tweaking the code a little I got it to do the same thing at 28 to 60 fps. I strongly suspect that if I was a good programmer instead of a lazy so an so I could push this higher.

Also if it claims to utilise the power of direct x it should run on all compatible systems barring manufacturer errors. That was always the point of direct X (barring errors).

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TogaMario
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Posted: 29th Mar 2003 05:24
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You know what, you make a good point. Which is an elarbotation on my point, lol. I'm not too pissed to just trash it, but let's just say that i'm now waiting intently to see how this plays out... Patch 4, the miracle drug? If you take two Patch 4's, you could DIE. Just two, it's all it takes ... remember that kids. Patch 4 Kills.

P.S. This is what the alphabet would look like if Q and R were eliminated.
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MrTAToad
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Posted: 29th Mar 2003 10:16
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It works fine for me - have you tried my pre-design title sequence in the Beta's section ?

Good news everyone! I really am THAT good...
http://www.nickk.nildram.co.uk/ for great plug-ins - oh my, yes!
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TogaMario
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Hmm, everything seems to work fine on someone's computer, but we're talking about all those people who are having problems. We're all as DirectX compaitable as the next person, but we're not seeing the promised performance boost, and that, my friends, is false advertisement.

P.S. This is what the alphabet would look like if Q and R were eliminated.
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Mobiius
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Patch 4 seems to do weird things to my PC too. Anyone think they can help. Here are the problems.


Somtimes when I load objects, the program will crash back to the desktop. No errors, no winXP fault report dialog box nothing. It's alomst as if the editor put an END command in there.



Ooh, ooh, where can I get patch 3 from?
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the architect
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Ive done experiment after experiment, uninstalling and reloading etc and I tell you it gets worse not better. I'm going to stick with 3.1 for now.

I still love using DBPro though its just disheartening sometimes.

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Richard Davey
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"why the hell would it be could Pro?That would be false advertising."

It's also completely subjective as to what "Pro" means to you. Commercial quality games might be your interpretation, but it won't be the same for someone who has no intention of doing this and just uses it for a hobby/fun.

"We're all as DirectX compaitable as the next person, but we're not seeing the promised performance boost, and that, my friends, is false advertisement."

You might not be seeing it, but it doesn't mean others aren't. For everyone problem post there are equal numbers of people looking on rather bemused at all the troubles being experienced. This isn't an excuse, it needs better compatability, but it is a fact - for some people it just works fine. False advertising is when it fails totally on any count.

If you bought DBPro and cannot use it then you, as a consumer, are fully entitled to a complete refund. We've never hidden this fact and you can email me to take us up on it if you so wish.

Cheers,

Rich

"Gentlemen, we are about to short-circuit the Universe!"
DB Team / Atari ST / DarkForge / Retro Gaming
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the architect
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"If you bought DBPro and cannot use it then you, as a consumer, are fully entitled to a complete refund. We've never hidden this fact and you can email me to take us up on it if you so wish."

As I said

"I still love using DBPro though its just disheartening sometimes."


"It's also completely subjective as to what "Pro" means to you."

Are you actually saying that DBPro is not for commercial use then rich? Its obvious even to me that alot of people are only programming for pleasure. Was that little end paragraph to cover yourself?

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the architect
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Not you personally, I meant the actual selling points of DBPro.

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heartbone
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Posted: 2nd Apr 2003 23:11 Edited at: 2nd Apr 2003 23:12
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You can create a working game in DBPro.

A month and a half ago I finished a puzzle game in DBPro
Who Likes Puzzles?

After I had finished and posted it, I learned on the RGT forum that I could do a "Load Image" of .jpg files within DBC (a totally undocumented feature).

Guess what? I translated the program to DBClassic so it would run on more video cards. That is real important to any developer. The system requirement for the exact same program went from 32MB down to 8MB video RAM. In addition users can run it under Windows 95 as well as Windows 98. I'd say that I at least quadrupled my potential audience.

When I heard that Patch 4 was being delayed to make it work better on more video subsystems I was extremely pleased at the attention given to this crucial issue, but the results are a bit disappointing. Each day delay in resolving this matter means less acceptance of DBPro.

The more you see, the more you know.
The more you know, the more you see.
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TogaMario
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Posted: 2nd Apr 2003 23:18
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My point is simply this, I do indeed enjoy the program, as it simplies the process of construction. BUT, I do find it odd that DBPro was advertised to do a lot of things that it can't. I understand that it is in it's infancy stages, but to say that Patch 4 is a pure performance release, and it will see "us" comfortably into 2004 ... that's just wrong. I do believe, that the DBPro team has a certain obligation to those who have bought their product, namely support. The fact that I find Patch 4 to be extremely agonizing for my computer, doesn't mean it didn't work for a lot of people. You are correct, it may not be false advertising to them. But to me, this is just unprofessional. I would be happier if someone from development would listen to the people who are having problems, that don't have Nvidia or ATI cards, instead of just chocking it up to "you need a new graphics card". NOWHERE on your site does it say that you require these for DBPro to work properly. I'm wondering why DBPros releases weren't tested on machines without superb graphics cards, and optimized for those too.

P.S. This is what the alphabet would look like if Q and R were eliminated.
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TogaMario
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Posted: 2nd Apr 2003 23:21
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REALLY, delay for support of more video subsystems, eh? ... Don't mean to be a dick about all this, but every day this issue goes unresolved is a day DBPro is useless to me. What makes it even worse is, it could be fixed, but it doesn't seem like the dev team wants to?

P.S. This is what the alphabet would look like if Q and R were eliminated.
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Richard Davey
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"What makes it even worse is, it could be fixed, but it doesn't seem like the dev team wants to?"

That's your interpretation of what is happening, based on what I don't actually know. The ATI issue is being addressed and Patch 5b1 will have the first attempt to resolve it in it, currently due in a weeks time*

Cheers,

Rich
* That's an ETA for DBDN and will change if we feel like it.

"Gentlemen, we are about to short-circuit the Universe!"
DB Team / Atari ST / DarkForge / Retro Gaming
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