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FPSC Classic Product Chat / Incredible Programme Butt…

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ozziedave
18
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Joined: 20th Apr 2006
Location: Australia
Posted: 26th May 2006 23:56
I think that FPSC is an Incredible programme, well ahead of it’s time, who would have thought that you would be able to paint the complicated geometry required for 3D games.

The animation of characters is superb, and the AI is better than most 3D Game Makers.

BUT…… Oh the load times are woeful, using 3D Games Studio as a test, with just five rooms and one enemy, no dynamic lights and medium graphics it took 3D Games Studio 3 secs to start up the software and FPSC seven minutes to startup the same 5 rooms.

FPSC Compile the executable in about the same time as 3DGS, but the boot up in FPSC takes the same time as the compile.

More levels, who in there right mind is going to wait seven minutes to load the next level ?.

I believe that Lee and Team should have built this programme on C+ not Dark Basic, I only hope that the next version of FPSC can be tweaked to better load times.
xplosys
18
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Joined: 5th Jan 2006
Playing: FPSC Multiplayer Games
Posted: 27th May 2006 01:01
Many people here, including myself, have built much larger levels than what you are describing, and even entire games, and I have never heard of a seven minute load time... ever.

Crazy Grandpa
uman
Retired Moderator
20
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Joined: 22nd Oct 2004
Location: UK
Posted: 27th May 2006 01:04 Edited at: 27th May 2006 01:07
Quote: "and the AI is better than most 3D Game Makers."


Hot topic and I would agree the AI despite users wishing it was better is still better than most indies and is why I started using it and still stick with FPSC currently.

AS TO LOAD TIMES I have - not counting exactly - single level load times at around something just over 5 minutes for a large complex level of approaching 200mb and thats on a high spec machine.

Les Horribres
19
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Location: My Name is... Merry
Posted: 27th May 2006 01:32
It is also on a low spec UMAN, FPSC Loading is all about your ram speed, and how much you have... no complex calculations going on there yet.

We all have our inner noob. Join the NJL, and have more fun!
I believe society is flawed; our notions on life, on child rearing, stem too far back to be of relevance in this day and time.
FPS Game Creator
18
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Joined: 21st May 2006
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Posted: 27th May 2006 16:32
Even on a low end machine, i have only had at least 2 minute load times.
Essal
18
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Joined: 15th Jan 2006
Location: inside your webcam, watching YOU.
Posted: 29th May 2006 21:43
Quote: "Incredible Programme Butt…"
what!? you think the program has an incredible butt? your weird...






(just kidding!)

Check out http://www.freewebs.com/lasse-b for free Stuff for FPSC
jaba
18
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Joined: 30th Apr 2006
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Posted: 30th May 2006 00:32
@ ozziedave

like one person said, its the difference between the program and the cpu in your computer, data needs to be transfered back and forth and if you have to many things running and clogging up your cpu your pc is going run slower, it dont matter if your pc it top of the line for the year of 06 a cpu can jam and overload so you might want to do a disc defrag or clean your c: drive up.

DID YOU KNOW ? THAT THE BINARY LANGUAGE 01000110010100000101001101000011011100100110010101100001011101000110111101110010 STANDS FOR FPSCREATOR ?

LeeBamber
TGC Lead Developer
24
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Joined: 21st Jan 2000
Location: England
Posted: 30th May 2006 01:47
It is a strong possibility we may be adding the cleverness of DarkAI into a future upgrade of FPSC. Right out of the box the characters won't get stuck in the doors like they sometimes do at the moment, and will be able to pre-calculate the shortest route to you in an instant. Probably the best bonus is that the current AI system really soaks up the performance because of the real-time 3D raycasting for collision it performs. Using DarkAI, with pre-defined movement info, there are almost no 3D raycasts which means we can drop in more enemies for the same price in performance We can have those ten zombies attacking you without the CPU even flinching!

"Small, smart, and running around the legs of dinosaurs to find enough food to survive, bedroom programmers aren't extinct after all "
KeithC
Senior Moderator
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Location: Michigan
Posted: 30th May 2006 01:54
You'd better run Lee, before you get peppered with questions

-Keith


Les Horribres
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Location: My Name is... Merry
Posted: 30th May 2006 02:04
If you do implement another AI, can we at LEAST have 90% control, even stuff that is so complex that no one will use it, we want. The problem is that we need every command there is because no one is certain of what they want to use it for...

I mean originally the plrmoveto was for teleports right? It also happens to be a very good way of fixing the plrs location, for use as camera or trap.

And things that we would like to adjust, like the enemys sensitivity to light? Are hard coded.

We all have our inner noob. Join the NJL, and have more fun!
I believe society is flawed; our notions on life, on child rearing, stem too far back to be of relevance in this day and time.
Conjured Entertainment
AGK Developer
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Joined: 12th Sep 2005
Location: Nirvana
Posted: 30th May 2006 02:27
Quote: "It is a strong possibility we may be adding the cleverness of DarkAI into a future upgrade of FPSC. "


Cool


Quote: "Using DarkAI, with pre-defined movement info, there are almost no 3D raycasts which means we can drop in more enemies for the same price in performance We can have those ten zombies attacking you without the CPU even flinching!"


Very cool



BOOM


Don't forget to visit Conjured Entertainment
Whyrag
19
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Joined: 27th Aug 2005
Location: Seattle
Posted: 30th May 2006 05:02
Very good news !!!!
ozziedave
18
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Joined: 20th Apr 2006
Location: Australia
Posted: 30th May 2006 14:09
Hi All thanks for all the replies on what could be effecting the slow running of the programme, but apples is apples why does 3D Games Studio load the same programme on the same computer in 3 secs against FPSC's 7 minutes.

I do love this programme, but load times are unacceptable, and lets face it how many people using your games are going to have a topline computer, bursting with RAM.

When you programme a game you programme it for a mass audience.

It was good to see Lee looking at this topic, I hope he can improve the load times - This software is the best on the net.
Van B
Moderator
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Location: Sunnyvale
Posted: 30th May 2006 15:25
The load times are most likely NOT the problem.

What might be the problem is the very way FPSC works. Each piece of level is a piece of level that needs joined to another piece, a window for example cuts a hole in a piece of level. This is done using CSG, which even on a fast PC is gonna be slow when your doing that lots of time. The more windows, doors, etc etc that you have, the more cutting has to be done, and everytime the level is getting bigger and bigger, and slower and more complex.

My tip to maybe help matters...

Make a window wall, like a wall piece that has your own custom window already cut into it in a modeller, so the engine doesn't have to do anything with it when loading.

DBPro is fast enough at loading, even faster at cloning, but painfully slow at CSG and deleting - both of which are major factors in FPSC's load times.

At the end of the day, 3D Game Studio is a differnt animal to FPSC, there's no way 3D Game Studio is creating that level as it loads it like how FPSC would, so comparing load speeds is not only impossible, but pointless.

Quote: "It is a strong possibility we may be adding the cleverness of DarkAI into a future upgrade of FPSC."

Excellent - I hinted that this would be a nice idea a while ago, great minds and all that ehh! .

Aegrescit medendo
Les Horribres
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Location: My Name is... Merry
Posted: 30th May 2006 18:05
Quote: "What might be the problem is the very way FPSC works. Each piece of level is a piece of level that needs joined to another piece, a window for example cuts a hole in a piece of level. This is done using CSG, which even on a fast PC is gonna be slow when your doing that lots of time. The more windows, doors, etc etc that you have, the more cutting has to be done, and everytime the level is getting bigger and bigger, and slower and more complex."


I am almost completly certain that the model is pre-rendered durring creation. (At least it looks right) Now I have heard several people say that FPSC makes a mess of some of the more complex Modeling Terms but that is all that is apearantly wrong with it.

What I do know is that all media is either refrenced or loaded into memory (depending on what the load image, load music, load sound commands do). I also know that FPSC places each wall texture, and this is normal for an engine, I think. So unless it is just having trouble somewhere between loading media, loading arrays and pharsing scripts... the load times are much worse then anticipated.

Possibly the Sync 30 executed before all media is loaded, forcing your computer to load at a slower rate? (I am not certain if that is only frame sync or also data sync)

Finally, there is the question of what FPSC does durring loading... what I mean is when do objects get textured, or rooms... amoung other calculations that I am forgetting...



Personally, another issue which, although minor, will increase load times by 30 seconds max, is the fact that scripts have to be pharsed in. I find it infinitly helpful when fixing a single script to edit that and run a exe outside of fpsc, but that shouldn't be the same if you are distributing the game... save them as an array, encrypt it for those who want it (personally, they are just a few lines of code, but okay) and then remove 200 lines of code dealing with script reading.

We all have our inner noob. Join the NJL, and have more fun!
I believe society is flawed; our notions on life, on child rearing, stem too far back to be of relevance in this day and time.
Benjamin A
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Joined: 31st Oct 2005
Location: The Netherlands
Posted: 30th May 2006 20:45
Quote: "It is a strong possibility we may be adding the cleverness of DarkAI into a future upgrade of FPSC. "


That sounds excellent! Hopefully the strong possibility will turn into definite soon

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MR useless
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Posted: 31st May 2006 06:55
ha ,I DONT GET IT
game freak16
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Joined: 25th Jan 2006
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Posted: 3rd Jun 2006 02:15
Yea I love FPSC, but my computer can run Day of Defeat Source and Counter Strike Source on max everything faster than FPSC can load a medium sized level with no dynamic lighting.
Les Horribres
19
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Joined: 20th Nov 2005
Location: My Name is... Merry
Posted: 3rd Jun 2006 07:52
It has to do with the programming behind it [both DBP and Lee's code] games like CSS probally also have filters to prevent you from seeing alot... well... I don't know all the other details. But Lee's Code is just your typicall 1990 Shooter with 2000 graphics... It will improve, but more needs to be done.

We all have our inner noob. Join the NJL, and have more fun!
I believe society is flawed; our notions on life, on child rearing, stem too far back to be of relevance in this day and time.
game freak16
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Posted: 3rd Jun 2006 18:36
Dark AI would be great in FPSC. I requested this in the feature creep forum

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