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2D All the way! / Fallout 2D Artwork

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Matt Rock
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Posted: 14th Jun 2006 22:11
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Hi all,

As you may already know, I'm a self-proclaimed moron when it comes to 2D art . I'm unfamiliar with the terminology and the style, and the 2D games I've released publically were mostly just for humor and weren't marvels of 2D artistic engineering by any means. So please take this question with a grain of salt

What do you "call" the Fallout/ Fallout 2 style of graphics? Is that isometric? And does anyone know what method they used for making that art? I'm dying to know because I'd love to make a game with "Fallout-ish" graphics, and I can't find a 2D artist until I know what I'm looking for Any help on this subject would be grand. I did the forum search but the only fallout thread I found was useless for this topic/ it didn't have the information I really needed. Anyway, thank you in advance for any help you might afford me


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BlinkOk
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Posted: 15th Jun 2006 00:22
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is this what you're talkin about;
http://www.gamespot.com/pc/rpg/fallout/screenindex.html

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Pincho Paxton
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Posted: 15th Jun 2006 00:47
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That's Isometric 2D. It's very good isometric 2D!

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Matt Rock
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Posted: 15th Jun 2006 02:51
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@ Blink0k: Yes, that's exactly what I'm talking about... I love that stuff!

@ Pincho: Isometric 2D? Got it. What tools/ apps do you need to make art like that?


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Briere
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Posted: 15th Jun 2006 03:31
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Id also like to know!
BTW Matt Rock, your pic in your signature rocks!
Its so funny.

Current Project: Galaxy Conquest
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Matt Rock
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Posted: 15th Jun 2006 06:33
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Thanks I've had it for a a month or two now, but this is only the second thread I've posted in this forum (that I can remembers anyway, hehe). How's the weather over in Amherst


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Cash Curtis II
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Posted: 15th Jun 2006 10:29
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Matt Rock, you need 3D model animations rendered to 2D. You need a new set of animations for every direction the character can face. For example, high detail isometric will have eight walking animations per character, one per direction. The same applies to every animation that you want to include.

The collision is done with invisible 2D collision boxes. You'll notice that you can walk behind things.

Isometric 2D represents the pinnacle of 2D. It's definitely not easy. The game that I'm working on now draws from an isometric RPG - Ultima. However, I wouldn't dare use 2D to do it, it would just be too hard.


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Pincho Paxton
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Posted: 15th Jun 2006 10:39
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I'd use Anim8or, but it will be very time consuming.

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Van B
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Posted: 15th Jun 2006 11:31
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It depends on the style, like retro and pixel-art type isometric is actually more fun than taxing, but detailed graphics like in Fallout would take a great deal of time.

Personally, I think using a modeller like Anim8or might save time - if you concentrate on just greyscale renders that your can touch up, then making and rendering these bits of furniture should be quicker than drawing from scratch. In a package that I'm comfortable in, like Rhino3D, I'd get much more done when using renders then touching them up and making variations. Rhino is a nurbs based modeller, so you can do things like draw a bezier curve and revolve it to make a 3D vase or something, really quick object creation with perfectly smooth nurbs.

There is a limited save demo for Rhino available - using print screen, you could grab all your renders and paste them right onto a sprite sheet.

I know Matt's not talking about doing the graphics himself, but if he can provide templates then 2D artists will really appreciate that, the worst thing you can do is waste someone elses time - always know what you need before asking, and providing a working template lets them get right onto it and keeps their job as easy as possible. Ideally having a full set of templates for everything you need, like a TV might just be an iso box with TV written on it, but being able to swap out the template for the finished sprite sheet would save a lot of time and keep everyone on track with what is still to be done.

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Cash Curtis II
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Posted: 15th Jun 2006 15:29
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Poser models might be just the thing for something like this. They can wear Poser clothes, and there is a TON of that stuff. Then it's just a matter of animating and rendering them to 2D.


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Pincho Paxton
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Posted: 15th Jun 2006 15:41
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Yeah Poser for people. The new Poser looks amazing, but unfortunately the clothes in the older versions are very simple. Just a few sleeves on the model, and a texture that doesn't really flow much with the movement.

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Matt Rock
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Posted: 15th Jun 2006 22:55
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Thanks for all of this information guys. I'm still dodging through the single player story and the multiplayer design, and still wondering if 2D is the way to go... but having Fallout-style graphics would definitely make a game like this a thousand-times better, imo. The models would be relatively simple, because they're small, right? Or is that a misconception?


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Pincho Paxton
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Posted: 16th Jun 2006 00:16
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Small models need less detail.

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Van B
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Posted: 16th Jun 2006 09:36 Edited at: 16th Jun 2006 09:45
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That's the cool bit about this technique, you literally throw a model together, then add detail in an art package over your render. Really if anyone can sketch to a degree, they could make these simple renders look awesome, just by adding a highlight and shadow layer. Drawing images at twice the required resolution, then scaling down would give a neat AA polish to everything too, there's no reason why you should see a single jaggy.

I imagine you'd find an artist without too much trouble Matt, there's people out there who do this stuff for fun who'd love to work on a game - frankly anyone with asperations of working professionaly in 2D art should be willing to devote time, indi games are resume gold for these people, take advantage.

If you did go 3D, which could be a good way to shortcut a lot of the issues with 2D - you could use the same technique, like use low poly models, but with a lot of detail added through the texture, there's really no benefit in looking at visual effects with these like bump mapping - I think that rotating the object on the X axis 30 degrees then plain UV mapping that would give the best results - kinda gives WYSIWYG, it'd be much like drawing over renders, except you would be drawing textures instead.

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Cash Curtis II
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Posted: 16th Jun 2006 17:10
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3D is certainly the way to go. My RPG is based entirely on 2D isometric RPGs. However, using 3D lets me bypass of of the issues associated with with 2D. The pinnacle of 2D uses it in such a way that it resembles 3D. I think that logically it follow that 3D is preferable. 3D is capable of so much more than 2D.

One example - there is no way to interpolate animations between 2D frames in real time. The amount of precision your system gives you is determined by pre-execution rendering. With 3D, this can be done in real time.

Many 2D games are redone in 3D (with a fixed axis view) because 3D simply looks better. I'd recommend 3D, unless you're illogically devoted to creating a 2D isometric game. In that case, more power to you.


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Matt Rock
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Posted: 16th Jun 2006 20:39
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To do it in 2D has a definite mystique about it, so to speak, but yeah, 3D is definitely easier and would probably be the difference between this game making money and this game being freeware Maybe I should try to find an Art Director or something and let them decide? Like, tell them right off the bat that how they make the assets is entirely up to them, I'm leaning towards 3D, and I want the game to have that "Fallout look?" Or is that too much to ask of someone?

One definite benefit of 2D is that it's far easier to code, for me anyway, probably because I have more experience there (4 games 2D, 1 game 40% unfinished 3D). 3D programming always gives me a headache, lol. But as Van mentioned earlier, I could always have the artist do the models in 3D and then render them to a sprite sheet, and then I get the best of both worlds. But even then I might be asking too much of an artist. ACK, this is why I hate dealing with art... it's my least favorite asset, lol. We have a studio musician, we have a foley artist... it's always the art that gives me trouble, hehe. One of you want to be an art director? hehe

Anyway, let me know if you think that might work, blending the benefits of both 2D and 3D so it looks good and is easier to program. I don't want to start harassing people on Deviantart and Renderosity until I have a pretty good "game plan," so to speak.


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Cash Curtis II
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Posted: 17th Jun 2006 13:11
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Quote: "I don't want to start harassing people on Deviantart and Renderosity until I have a pretty good "game plan," so to speak."

Really, you'll need a playable demo with placeholder sprites first. There are tons of isometric game sprites here http://reinerstileset.4players.de/englisch.htm. They're great as placeholders, and to orient you to what you'll have to produce on your own. They're not exactly what you're looking for, but they're isometric, there's TON of them, and they're free.

Alternately, you could render DarkMatter models to sprites. Run then through DBP at a fixed frame rate for each animation and save a set number of frames. You would then turn the character a few degrees and repeat the process. That would be pretty easy.

However, like I said, it's going to add to the difficulty of making the game. I think the primary thing that will frustrate you is the smoothness of the animations. In order to smoothly rotate the character, you'll need 16 directions of animation. Let's say that there are 10 different animations, at 60 frames each. That's 9600 frames of animation per character. Plus, you'll need 9600 frames of animation for every weapon or piece of clothing that a character can have, so that you can overlay the two animations. Now, the key there is to make the characters the same size so that the same 9600 frames can be shared between all characters.

The less frames you have, the worse your game will look. I've based my current project off of the 2D isometric view. I grew up on it, it's how I've always played games. I've fixed my camera along the x axis, just the same. However, movement along the Z-axis reveals a spatial freedom and majesty that cannot be achieved with 2D. Movement along the 2D 'Z' (really the y) axis is static. The x-rotated view of any object is the same at the top of the screen as it is at the bottom. 3D brings the game to the next level.



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Pincho Paxton
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Posted: 17th Jun 2006 13:46
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Fallout is 80% artwork, and 20% gameplay. If you are not an artist, you are asking someone to make 80% of your game for you.

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Cash Curtis II
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Posted: 17th Jun 2006 14:31
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Quote: "Fallout is 80% artwork, and 20% gameplay. If you are not an artist, you are asking someone to make 80% of your game for you."


Exactly.

I had some afterthoughts about my post above.
1. You'll probably end up having to hire an artist, or do it yourself. The amount of work necessary is enormous, and must be completed by one person or team to be unified.

2. Imagine the difficulty of managing such an enormous amount of 2D art. First of all, if your artist gives you every frame, and it all looks too cartoonish, or isn't lightmapped properly, you'd want it redone. Problems will occur.

3. You might just get a resource viewer for Fallout and borrow the graphics for your tech demo. Remember, no serious artist is going to want to get hitched to an idea, however good it is. You need a demo game, and a well developed tech document.

Good luck with it!


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Matt Rock
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Posted: 18th Jun 2006 06:46
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I'm hoping that our game is 25% gameplay, 25% multiplayer awesomeness, 25% artwork, and 25% story depth But you're probably right, hehe. I think I might be better off just finding an art director and having him/ her deal with all of this stuff (and with finding two or three artists to work with us). My biggest problem from a managerial standpoint is that the artists I've worked with in the past have little or no experience in isometrics, so I can't use "in-house" people to do the job This will be my most difficult project, unfortunately (not counting the 3D project... two years of push and pull and we're still a year away from alpha )


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indi
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Posted: 18th Jun 2006 10:42
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Along time ago I posted a 3d to 2d method from DBC for just this kind of purpose.
it rotated a 3d model and spat out a division of 360 rotated angles as bmps.

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Cash Curtis II
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Posted: 18th Jun 2006 12:19 Edited at: 18th Jun 2006 12:21
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Get your hands on Ultima VII parts I and II. Download the Exult engine off of the internet.

There is a hack mover that will allow you to disassemble the isometric tiles. Really an eye opener when you're wondering how it's all done. It's a great 2D illusion.

Then, do what indi talks about - either use his program or make your own.

The buildings (and ships) in isometric games are tile based. You'll have thousands of tiles assembled for various things. You can see how it's done in U7 with a resource viewer. Or, Ultima Online. They're made of stacks of 2D tiles, correctly z-ordered.

Save yourself the trouble and make a 3D game with an isometric viewpoint. All you have to do is have the camera floating above and tilt the viewpoint. Have you seen the videos of my project, Matt? I believe that's what you're going for. The major advantage is that buildings can such can be made from single (in my case stacked) mesh models. Much less time involved in the creation of such things.



DBP is totally capable of making an isometric style RPG, if you manage your resources properly. People frequently get frustrated when they try to drop 1000 object and 1000 characters onto a 5000 square mile terrain and it doesn't work. The great isometric games were examples of maximum efficiency.


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Megaton Cat
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Posted: 19th Jun 2006 04:40 Edited at: 19th Jun 2006 04:44
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At this age, it's honestly easier making 3d levels then competing 2d art.

Take a look at this image:



It looks like a 300px high bitmap tile for for a 2d game. Sure it's a 2d graphic, does that mean you can hire one 2d artist to make it? Well no. It first has to be modelled in a 3d app, then textured well, then properly rendered and re-touched in a graphic app. In the end, a 2d game like Fallout took a whole team of different artists.

And trust me, a 3d isometric game is far easier to code then a good 2d isometric game. (Have you seen how Diablo 2 levels are made? Too hardcore for simple minded folks like me)

In the end, you are going to need a ton of conusing renders just to create one level.




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Cash Curtis II
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Posted: 19th Jun 2006 06:10
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I hate huge HUDs. With such a beautiful game, why junk it up like that?


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Megaton Cat
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Posted: 19th Jun 2006 16:10
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Well if it makes you feel any better, that particular hud was scrapped in later versions of the game to be replaced with a slimmer one.


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Pincho Paxton
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Posted: 19th Jun 2006 19:03
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Quote: "It looks like a 300px high bitmap tile for for a 2d game. Sure it's a 2d graphic, does that mean you can hire one 2d artist to make it? Well no. It first has to be modelled in a 3d app, then textured well, then properly rendered and re-touched in a graphic app. In the end, a 2d game like Fallout took a whole team of different artists."


Not a whole team. That is easy to do in Anim8or. Especially those particular graphics that you posted. They have hardly any modelling involved. But the statues, and other things are much more involved. Just a single artist though, but a lot of work.

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Matt Rock
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Posted: 19th Jun 2006 21:20 Edited at: 19th Jun 2006 21:21
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Quote: "Along time ago I posted a 3d to 2d method from DBC for just this kind of purpose.
it rotated a 3d model and spat out a division of 360 rotated angles as bmps."

Quote: "Then, do what indi talks about - either use his program or make your own."

I see your point... that would be a lot easier. Instead of an army of 2D artists, we could get by (and get it done quicker) with two or three modelers who can do textures, then transform it into 2D. The point of view in Megaton's first picture, that's the angle I'm hoping for (no offense megaton, but I agree with Curtis... the hud in image 2 is too big, it hides the game's prettier points). Another benefit that one of the people I'm working on this game with pointed out for 2D instead of 3D is that we could get more sprites on the screen doing stuff than we could 3D models, another benefit I think.

Quote: "The buildings (and ships) in isometric games are tile based. You'll have thousands of tiles assembled for various things. You can see how it's done in U7 with a resource viewer. Or, Ultima Online. They're made of stacks of 2D tiles, correctly z-ordered."

So it would save me a lot of time to have the player travel between towns and special locations via a world map (ala Fallout) and when they reach those towns and special locations, then switch to the isometrics, so we aren't doing all of the stuff in-between? I didn't know about the tiling stuff... if you look at the catalog of 2D games I've made, they're all fighting and duck hunt-ish games... so I've never done any tiling yet. Time to put on the learning hat, hehe.

Indi, do you still have that program? Where could I get it?

I'd love to keep this simple and fast. I think I'm going to release a one-town game at first with my focus on having a lot of missions and trying to focus on learning this stuff, but make it worth buying at least Then, after this stuff is easier for me, start work on a sequel with several towns and a huge world map... that's probably the best way to go. It's the difference between spending two months making a game and a full year making one. I think I'll go with the two-month option hehe. I'd love to start making money from indie games again and the RPG market seems to do pretty well.


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Megaton Cat
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Posted: 19th Jun 2006 21:36 Edited at: 19th Jun 2006 21:39
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Quote: "Not a whole team. That is easy to do in Anim8or. Especially those particular graphics that you posted. They have hardly any modelling involved. But the statues, and other things are much more involved. Just a single artist though, but a lot of work.
"


I'd prefer to believe it when I see it. Also don't think it's too smart starting off with "That is easy to do..." because game dev isn't easy. The tiles I showed were made by a proffesional who was contracted to create a few of them for a game over a long period of time. I have yet to see anything of similar quality on these forums, let alone something in Anim8or.

Quote: "(no offense megaton, but I agree with Curtis... the hud in image 2 is too big, it hides the game's prettier points)"


Why do you keep saying "no offense"? And I didn't create that image, so why should I care? Dang you're wierd.


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Pincho Paxton
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Posted: 19th Jun 2006 22:32
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Quote: "I'd prefer to believe it when I see it. Also don't think it's too smart starting off with "That is easy to do..." because game dev isn't easy. The tiles I showed were made by a proffesional who was contracted to create a few of them for a game over a long period of time. I have yet to see anything of similar quality on these forums, let alone something in Anim8or.
"


Is that a joke? Or am I not seeing the same graphics as you posted?

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Cash Curtis II
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Posted: 20th Jun 2006 04:05 Edited at: 20th Jun 2006 04:08
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Hey, I don't think that everyone here is grasping exactly how isometric scenes are made. If I'm mistaken, then I'm sorry.

What it is not - a bit sprite rendering of a 3D model. That would be easy.

An isometric building is made up of layers of sprite tiles. Let's say each layer is 64 pixels x 64 pixels. So, first you tile the ground floor with floor textures. Then, you tile the next 64 pixel level. You keep going up and up until you reach the very top of the building. You're basically building it one layer of bricks at a time.

Let's grossly oversimplify this,

After you've constructed your building, you have to fill it with furniture and objects in a similar manner.

If it was a single sprite render, then you couldn't walk inside the building, or on top of it, or any such thing that makes isometric games special. You couldn't have roofs that dissapear when you walk inside the building. You couldn't walk behind a building the way 2D isometrics allow you to. In a proper isometric game, you're obscured by anything in front of you, yet you only collide with the base of the tile.


Quote: "and when they reach those towns and special locations, then switch to the isometrics, so we aren't doing all of the stuff in-between?"

There's really no point. If your isometric engine is good, you might as well just use it for everything. If it's not, then it sucks anyway and should be scrapped.

I've dealt a LOT with isometric games. I promise I know what I'm talking about.

Let's compare it to something. I like writing. However, I don't write on vellum with quills like Shakespeare might have done. He was great, so shouldn't I use the exact same tools that he did? Nope, sorry, I'm going to use modern tools to accomplish the same end effect.

I love isometric games. If it was feasible or wise, I'd certainly be making a 2D isometric game. There's nothing like nostalgia. However, Matt, I think you're in for a world of disappointment if you seriously undertake this project with your team.


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Matt Rock
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Posted: 20th Jun 2006 05:13
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So I shouldn't do it in 2D even if we make the models in 3D? I'm confused! I thought everyone said I should (or maybe just said I could) do it that way. Need a new job Curtis? hehe, you know way more about this stuff than I do

I dunno, I think ultimately it will end up being the art director's choice (when and if I find them or even start looking for them). But I wish we could code it in 2D because, for me anyway, it's a lot easier than 3D programming, in DBP anyway. And then there's the whole limit on 3D models things... can't I have more sprites doing stuff than 3D models? That's a problem my team has faced repeatedly with our big secret 3D project.

Quote: "let alone something in Anim8or"

I dunno, I think Anim8or is pretty capable. Is it as cool as Max or Maya? No way. But it get's the job done

Quote: "Why do you keep saying "no offense"? And I didn't create that image, so why should I care? Dang you're wierd."

A. I didn't know I overuse that phrase, sorry!
B. I thought you did create it
C. Aren't we all?


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BlinkOk
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Posted: 20th Jun 2006 08:06 Edited at: 20th Jun 2006 08:07
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here is an interesting article on some dudes that made a commercial mmorpg "DOFUS". Written in flash. They have some interesting numbers regarding the artwork and it is awesome artwork indeed;
http://www.gotoandplay.it/spotLight/dofus/
summarizing;
Q: How many animations were approximately drawn for each character?
More than 100 for each one; we have to consider that DOFUS is in 2D, we cannot benefit from the advantages of 3D designing. It is a huge task.
Q: Can you tell us about the team that worked on it and how much time did it take?
We were 3 at the beginning and gradually we increased the team to reach more than 25 persons.

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Cash Curtis II
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Posted: 20th Jun 2006 08:07
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You must be thinking that an isometric building is one big sprite. It's certainly not. It can be thousands of sprites. 2D isometric games represent the pinnacle of 2D - by arranging 2D sprites in layers, a pseudo-3D effect can be achieved.

I've done quite a bit of work with 2D isometrics. My friend and I wrote a small engine that could decode things from Ultima and display it correctly. It was actually a pretty functional demo - we successfully tiled the ground, placed some buildings, and had a guy walking around. We even made a multiplayer version. However, my 2D engine at the time was too weak, so it just wasn't feasible. It hurt my heart to give it up.

Whoever invented 2d isometrics and made it work on the average computer was a genius.

Quote: "Need a new job Curtis? hehe, you know way more about this stuff than I do "

I appreciate it, but I'm knee deep in a similar project already. It will actually be ready fairly soon, then I have two projects based on the engine in the chute already.

Quote: "And then there's the whole limit on 3D models things..."

You'll quickly reach the same kind of limit with your isometric game. That is because technically you'll want it to exhibit the modern capabilities of 3D engines, and that will greatly increase your system load.

Any good game that achieves more than it seems should be possible is simply an illusion. You probably want thousands of NPCs running around a map, all interacting with each other on and off camera. It's simply not possible. An illusion must be created that makes the player think that it's happening. Things like animating off screen models - if you cut that out, you'll get an instant increase in FPS. Your game has to efficiently and dynamically manage resources.

I don't think that DBP would be a good choice for a 2D isometric game. Maybe something like Playbasic, specifically designed for 2D. But I warn you again Matt, if you undertake this project, you're going to get lost in a pile of 64x64 sprite bricks, slowly constructing all of your buildings from pieces. That's a job for sweat shop workers. At the very least, you can construct visually impressive 3D light-mapped models many times faster and better looking than is possible with 2D. Not only that, but I think that your profit potential will be non-existent. You have to be careful when you're potentially wasting the time of others.


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Van B
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Posted: 20th Jun 2006 13:33 Edited at: 20th Jun 2006 13:37
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There's a couple of methods with isometric games, thing is the early varieties were quite 3D in nature, there really was a lot less faking going on. For instance, as Cash describes the brick technique, that was vital because often these bricks and object would be movable. That style is usually only for simpler graphics, stuff that you would reuse a lot, like in the classic spectrum ISO games. I mean the first big iso was Spindizzy, and that had maybe 15 different bricks yet often had very complex geometry.

Firstly not disagreeing with anyones statements on how these things are made, this is just one of a few techniques, but one that I think Matt should consider as it is very programmer friendly while not scaring artists with complex jigsaws.
Some new 2D rpg's work in plains, like layered graphic plains with visibility and collision references. That archway that megaton showed for example has a stone arch, a portcullis, and a wooden door. These would be seperate layers, probably 2 layers for the stone arch in fact, one backing, one for over the top of the portculus layer. Probably easiest to explain if I draw a picture...

(attached)

See you'd draw the back layer, then only the front layers that are required, using a mask overlay bitmap you check the feet of the characters to ascertain if the layer needs drawn. You could easily render the inside of a building then cut out the sprite features, then render the outside and have that as a final wall layer. Like when inside a building you could hide the wall layer and see inside perfectly.

I did this in a little point and click example, had a Chibi Gaybrush from Monkey Island, some barrels to hide behind and an upper level, like the bank from the original game I think. I used sprite masks and it's quite effective and fast too, because the backing layer can have all the base graphics, and you only have to draw what is in front of the moving sprites.

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Cash Curtis II
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Posted: 20th Jun 2006 15:01 Edited at: 20th Jun 2006 15:08
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Quote: "That style is usually only for simpler graphics, stuff that you would reuse a lot, like in the classic spectrum ISO games."

The Ultima games use brick style graphics. Quite complex, really. Ultima Online being the most recent example I can point out. That level of complexity requires a team of dedicated artists because of the sheer amount of media needed to make everything look varied.

Plains could be good. I don't think it would really reduce the complexity of the artwork. It would still require 2D renders of subdivided 3D geometry. However, if I were going to make a 2D game, I would probably do it with plains.


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Merrie
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Posted: 21st Jun 2006 04:10
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I have a recommendation for a very good 2D art program that is very affordable and makes fantasic iso art.
World Creator
http://www.inet2inet.com/InetSoftware/World-Creator/WorldCreator-info.asp


Also check out this tutorial, its very good.
http://rhysd.syntesis.org/tutorial/chapter1point1.html
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Hobgoblin Lord
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Posted: 29th Jun 2006 13:39 Edited at: 29th Jun 2006 13:40
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Hey Matt;

If you really want to do 2d Iso, I say go for it. I am not a pixel artist but I came up with the following image in about an hour. It is actually many components (layers) that can be ripped apart to get into the interior, different floors etc. Just if I can do this having never made an Iso building a real artist could likely do a hell of a better job than me. It is not really detailed (yet) just wanted to see if I could do it in a resonable amount of time.



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Hobgoblin Lord
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Posted: 29th Jun 2006 22:46 Edited at: 30th Jun 2006 22:12
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An update of the building. I think I will work with this style some more I think it is kind of fun. All lines are drawn (as you can probably tell) and not made with a modeling package.



EDIT: If anyone knoews of any shading tutorials for Iso let me know I have no clue how to shade things.

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Cash Curtis II
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Posted: 5th Jul 2006 18:19
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It looks promising, but one of the standards of isometric games is that you can walk inside of the building. That's why it's made up of tiles or layers instead of simply one sprite.

As for shading, I'd use lightmapping in a 3D modeler. I know you didn't use a modeler for this, but I really would. Then, it's easy to lightmap and subdivide the geometry for use in a game.


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Pincho Paxton
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Posted: 6th Jul 2006 00:17
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Quote: "It looks promising, but one of the standards of isometric games is that you can walk inside of the building. That's why it's made up of tiles or layers instead of simply one sprite."


He said it's made of layers in his post.

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Hobgoblin Lord
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Posted: 6th Jul 2006 06:20
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Quote: "He said it's made of layers in his post."


Correct even the window glass is a seperate layer so it can be made transparent. I have not detailed the insides as of yet but generally I am setting up the base floor and each floor or roof on a seperatre layer for fading. The same with the front and back walls, though you can't see the back in the picture those walls are drawn.

I have been experimenting with some masks as well to handle collision and when to fade certain areas.

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Cash Curtis II
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Posted: 6th Jul 2006 07:40
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Ah! My bad, I missed that. I'm still partial to rendering 2D versions of 3D artwork. I think that it gives you so much more flexibility.


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Hobgoblin Lord
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Posted: 6th Jul 2006 08:05
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Quote: "Ah! My bad, I missed that. I'm still partial to rendering 2D versions of 3D artwork. I think that it gives you so much more flexibility. "


I have anim8or and occasional access to 3dsmax when school is in session, but I have not been able to set up the cameras in a way to get an actual iso image. can get close but I would be afraid they might not match with each other. I would like to render (the frame at least) in a 3d app just can't seem to make it work. I did one as a render and went in to correct the angles and make it actual iso but it ended up being way more work than drawing the darn thing, mostly I would like to render for the shadows.

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Pincho Paxton
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Posted: 6th Jul 2006 10:15
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But once you get the camera in the right position you can save the project, and just keep loading a different model, and copy paste it into the project with the iso camera. So you never have to set it up again.

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Van B
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Posted: 6th Jul 2006 10:28
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The styles are very different, rendered 2D, pixel art, isometric...

But you should mess with objects in DB - I made a little sprite render thing a while ago, it would render all the frames of an animation in a isometric camera view - it works great but does look quite different to most hand drawn methods. Pixel artists get an eye for things, like when there's a bad line that most people would ignore, it'd drive them daft - a pixel out of place is still a whole pixel to some people.

So I'd suggest rendering in DB, taking these images, and then finishing them in 2D, adding manual shading and highlights, outlines, tidy up. It is quicker than starting from scratch and it would give good results. For characters anyway - as I said you need to decide on a style before deciding how it should be made - personally for a RPG game I'd use the layered plains idea because the graphics are more organic.

For a retro style iso game, a iso RTS, or a Sims type game - hand drawn and old fashioned techniques give good personality to your work, pixel art just looks cool and is interesting to look at, you always find new details that you missed, hand-drawn would be much better than rendering for a sims game IMO. If you take a fish tank for example - model and render and add fish, bit's of coral, sand, and it'll take all night - or you can chill out and just draw it . The render would look smoother, the hand-drawn would look cool, I think people would disregard the render but fall in love with your goldfish made from 5 pixels.

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Cash Curtis II
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Posted: 7th Jul 2006 19:19
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I would totally do what Van B said, make a DBP renderer. You could load the models, and position the camera is exactly the place that you needed, at exactly the angle you want, and save the image.

I'd take that one step further - I'd have all of my geometry divided up already in my editor. I'd also have it all offset correctly in the editor, so that if I load up every piece at coordinate 0,0,0, they'd stack up correctly. Then DBP could just cycle through every piece and save the image.

I think that the results could be fabulous. I use 3DWS, and I imagine that if I wanted to make 2D isometric graphics, the lightmapping would look just incredible.


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Pincho Paxton
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Posted: 7th Jul 2006 23:32
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Somebody could just make the editor available to everyone.

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Hobgoblin Lord
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Posted: 8th Jul 2006 20:18
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I have been trying it in dbp but here is the problem I am having, It foreshortens the models (which it should), but what is happening is the lines are thus not true isometric lines and look a little off. If the top edge is perfect the bottom ends up skewed. I even went in to a "targeting mode" to see how close I could get it, but when I port them into a 2d pack it is more work for me to clean em up then to make it from scratch.

So if someone could post what they are using I would really appreciate cuz I just can't seem to find a way to make it work correctly.

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Pincho Paxton
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Posted: 8th Jul 2006 20:20
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It probably has to do with the Camera FOV which can be altered with set camera FOV

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Cash Curtis II
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Posted: 12th Jul 2006 19:10
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Quote: "but what is happening is the lines are thus not true isometric lines and look a little off."


How off is it? I suspect that it would still look good. Perhaps it wouldn't be perfectly isometric, but if it looked good and was functional, no one would care.

Perhaps I'm wrong though. If you posted some pictures, or an example project, maybe we could have a go at it for you?


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