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DarkBASIC Discussion / DBC's Advantages Over DBP?

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SFSW
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Posted: 25th Jun 2006 06:55
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Quote: "SFSW has plenty of room to talk here. Just look at all his Starwraith games. BTW SFSW, I remember a while back that you were trying to write your next game with DBP or something like that. Did that ever happen, or do you still use DBC for everything? Just wondering."


Due to several critical obstacles (critical for my projects anyway) I encountered in DBPro during my attempts to use it over the last half decade, I still use DBC. You can visit my forum if you want details. With the introduction of Vista (note the issue above), the time has come for me to decide which direction to go next. DBPro is still not viable for me, so I'm hopeful for a revision to DBC or some other solution. Otherwise, I'll be language hunting soon.

Quote: "Because you attacked him"


Pointing out his lack of staying on topic and lack of examples is attacking him? Is this gradeschool? lol

Quote: "Please list some of these priorities."


I knew we forgot to list something in this thread, lol.

Quote: "It's obvious you are acting this way becasue you own DBC and are jealous of Sven B because he is defending DBPro, and thus you assume he owns it, and thus making you more jealous. Don't worry, that's how I felt too."


Is this really how people behave on these forums?

And again, what does this have to do with the topic?

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Uncle Sam
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Posted: 25th Jun 2006 08:32
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Quote: "Is this really how people behave on these forums?"


Sadly, yes.

Look, I didn't want to start a flamewar, I just felt bad for Sven B. I know he is a respected user (at least I think he is ), and he was just trying to help. Sorry for the harshness of my post. When he said this:

Quote: "Don't forget that DBP is still superior to DBC..."


...I don't think it was necessary for you to say this:

Quote: "That's not really relevant to the topic. Nor did you provide anything substantive to back that up. You defeat your own argument when you post like that."


He probably just wanted noobs to realize that DBPro is better so that they wouldn't just assume that DBC is the best and go buy it, lol.

Uncle Sam
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SFSW
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Posted: 25th Jun 2006 09:22
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Quote: "He probably just wanted noobs to realize that DBPro is better so that they wouldn't just assume that DBC is the best and go buy it, lol."


If Sven feels he needs to protect the noobs from DBC, so be it. Such statements just resemble childish behavior when no substantive information is provided (especially when it's not even related to the topic of the thread).

Quote: "Sadly, yes. "


I suspect that's why I generally prefer to avoid it, just felt I had something worthwhile to contribute to this thread.

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Sven B
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Posted: 25th Jun 2006 14:21
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Quote: "Such statements just resemble childish behavior when no substantive information is provided (especially when it's not even related to the topic of the thread)."


That sort of statements start fights you know.

I posted that reply of "superiority" with good intentions. Everyone was saying to bring DBC back to life, while TGC has its hands full with DBP.
You said I didn't have arguments for my opinion, so I replied again with my arguments.
Then you said you weren't convinced by my arguments, so be it.

And now, it's almost like the DBPro users fight against the DBC users. And you say that I am childish for posting it.
If it is so offensif to you, then I will edit my reply/ies.

just drop this.

It's the programmer's life:
Have a problem, solve the problem, and have a new problem to solve.
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Pincho Paxton
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Posted: 25th Jun 2006 16:15
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You have to expect DBPro to be defended in a thread like this. It is important to get both sides of view to keep the thread fair. So that when a newcomer reads it, they get a feeling for both programs.

I don't think that TGC is actually allowed to use DBC as their own brandname, and alter it. I think they sold the rights to someone else.

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Uncle Sam
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Posted: 26th Jun 2006 02:07
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Quote: "That sort of statements start fights you know."


Exactly. Just when I told SFSW about such a statement he made, he made another one. And just because you made all those Starwraith games, doesn't mean I'm going to side with you, as hyrichter thinks it should be. I don't judge characters by their accomplishments. In fact, those are the specific characters who are usually proud, as you have displayed.

I was going to drop this, but you attacked Sven B again.

Uncle Sam
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SFSW
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Posted: 26th Jun 2006 02:15 Edited at: 26th Jun 2006 20:25
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Quote: "just drop this"


Am I the one who keeps posting about it? If you want to drop it, we can sure do so. My reply wasn't directed at you, but to Uncle who posted about it (his incorrect assumptions inspired my reply

Quote: "That sort of statements start fights you know."


Only for those looking for a fight. Fighting often indicates a weak argument/viewpoint/opinion, so I don't think that's a valid direction for either of us as both viewpoints have merit. You can't really control how people respond to an opposing viewpoint, it's up to them if they choose to fight over it or come back with a substantive/productive reply. I've got no complaints with your reponse listing your priorities with DBPro, you did quite well I think. It wouldn't have come up at all again if Uncle hadn't posted the reply he did (accusing me of jealousy, assuming I didn't own DBPro, etc., etc., see the trend? lol).

Some people seem to think they have to prove that one is 'superior' to the other when that's not my point or the point of this thread. Both are valuable, both deserve support, both have unique advantages/disadvantages, and both are worthy of continued use. The topic of this thread was to list advantages of DBC, which seemed simple enough.

Quote: "I posted that reply of "superiority" with good intentions."


I can say that my dog is superior to your dog, but what does that contribute to anything? I apologize if I didn't recognize your good intentions in a statement like that. It's probably just too easy to miss good intentions with such statements.

Quote: "I don't think that TGC is actually allowed to use DBC as their own brandname, and alter it. I think they sold the rights to someone else."


Interesting, where did you hear this from?

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heartbone
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Posted: 26th Jun 2006 03:25
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Yes Pincho, do tell.

I'm unique, just like everybody else.
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Pincho Paxton
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Posted: 26th Jun 2006 15:30
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I remember about 2 years ago that TGC posted that they did not have the rights to alter DB Classic. It belongs to someone else. I don't know who has the right to it.

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General Reed
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Posted: 26th Jun 2006 15:45
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@Pincho Paxton
Sorry, i wasnt clear enough, i meant you cannot use the newton dll, darkphysics dll. I dont think anyway.

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tha_rami
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Posted: 26th Jun 2006 16:23 Edited at: 26th Jun 2006 16:31
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Quite a discussion here, I see.

Well, I've always been a DBC user and I'd like to see those upgrades as well. DBC is a good, stable and fast programming language - and it's definetly worth the upgrade (I don't know whether DBP will be Vista-compatible, but DBP, too, deserves it).

Those talking about "superior DBP" and stuff didn't really get the point of the thread. This one is about getting DBC Vista-compatible and upgraded, or DBP enhanced or improved with DBC-features. Otherwise, it's about DBC advantages over DBP. I understand SFSW's comments, and I fully agree with him: They're really two different approaches to programming games, and one chooses for one of both products according to one's priority's.

For a 30,000+ line program, I think speed is probably an important factor, as is the CLI, as is the flexibility. For others, DBP's advantages above DBC make it a better product. It all depends on one's needs and priorities.

So, why such a discussion? SFSW just pointed out WHY he is asking for such an update, with quite good arguments imho. I've seen less professional 'quarrels' here. I haven't seen any straight attacks here, just flaws in arguments. I ain't taking someone's side, simply because there ARE no sides here. It's about an update for DBC!

So: I'd be happy to see such an update for DBC.

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SimSmall
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Posted: 29th Jun 2006 04:25 Edited at: 29th Jun 2006 04:26
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Quote: "It belongs to someone else. I don't know who has the right to it."


I'm thinking Dark Basic Software owns the name, but I'm also thinking The Game Creators bought up Dark Basic Software.


Staying on topic, I wish to add another point to the DB Classic rack:

It's easier to learn. no 3D maths, almost all 3D maths you'd need can be solved by using new*angle() and new*value (* being x, y or z) It's also available to schools for free. I'm not sure how many schools actually use Dark Basic for teaching purposes, but a little show of DB Classic at my college, got a surprisingly good reaction. Even one program that was entirely text driven no no graphics or sounds whatsoever.

Now I'm going to list a few good features (In my opinion) of DB Pro, since I've quite a few things about Classic now:

fastsync command
DirectX 9 for graphics and sounds (sadly not for multiplayer)
Bone based animation
Project files (I must confess I do prefer working with a single exe file, but navigation can start to get difficult when you stick to a single file)

As things stand, we have three great langugages:

Dark Basic is becoming out of date. and If I've read this thread correctly, this thread has started up because it will not work on WIndows Vista in its current state.

Dark Basic Professional is a modern programming language, which carries many of Dark Basic's good qualities into the current generation of games development. However some of the features were removed EAX returns with an upgrade pack, it would be nice if static object support returned in a similar fashion for those who have problems with BSPs, or simply don't wish to use them.

And finally, the Dark SDK. There's no concern of this being ruled obsolete any time soon. it caters for the professional developer, rather than the hobbyist developer. It can be mixed with C++ for truly incredible results.
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SFSW
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Posted: 29th Jun 2006 06:59 Edited at: 29th Jun 2006 07:13
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Quote: "and If I've read this thread correctly, this thread has started up because it will not work on WIndows Vista in its current state."


That is correct, although you can use the technique I mentioned above to get any DBC program to work just fine in Vista. The problem has also been reported to Microsoft as it's not just DarkBasic that runs into problems with retained mode dependency.

DarkBasic Pro does not work with Vista either (including the latest 5384 Beta 2 build) and there doesn't seem to be a way to get it to work like there is with DBC. Because of its apparent strict dependence on a specific version of DirectX 9.0C, DirectX 9.0L (the version Vista depends on) doesn't agree with it. DBPro built programs also close with a DirectX related error message and there doesn't seem to be a way to get it to work yet (I've tried).

So at the moment, only DBC programs work with Vista and only using the technique mentioned above. Both languages are in need of an update for Vista.

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Lazarus_
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Posted: 29th Jun 2006 22:24
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Terrible news! In a thread just below this one Richard Davey posted that DBC would not ever be updated again, and that's the final decision.

Just like Blitz3D(and now Blitz Research comes out with a new manual for it!*how stupid*), no updates, no new versions, no explanation, no nothing. And no money from me either(and I suspect others).

Added to that, why on earth should I buy DBPro when they may stop updating it tomorrow?!

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Wandering Swordsman
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Posted: 2nd Jul 2006 03:37
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Lazarus_:
Quote: "Terrible news! In a thread just below this one Richard Davey posted that DBC would not ever be updated again, and that's the final decision."

Where is this post of infinite doom!
I've look around and I can't seem to locate it.

Maybe Vista's final release version will be compatible with DBC/DBP?
(Vista's still in beta right?)

SFSW:
Quote: "Such an update to DBC would give TGC another product line to sell (a nice title could be DarkBasic SE, SE for Second Edition, 2.0, or whatever title they might want), shows their commitment to supporting the products they already sell, increases their potential user base by meeting the individual needs of more developers, retains the viability of commercial game creation with TGC products (including the side bonus of additional promotion of their software), and keeps their product line current with modern technology. "

I agree completely. And for the record I would buy the update to DBC if it was created as an enhancement pack.
(Like the one with DarkMATTER.)

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I carry a sword in one hand,
a gun in the other...
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SimSmall
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Posted: 2nd Jul 2006 03:55
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Quote: "Where is this post of infinite doom!"


Click here - if you dare...

Quote: "Maybe Vista's final release version will be compatible with DBC/DBP?"


We can only hope.
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Wandering Swordsman
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Posted: 2nd Jul 2006 04:01 Edited at: 2nd Jul 2006 04:02
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Richard Davey:
Quote: "Sorry but there will be no more updates for DarkBASIC Classic, ever. Yes I know it's a shame, but it's just not going to happen."

*Clicks, reads... Cries*

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a gun in the other...
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SFSW
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Posted: 2nd Jul 2006 05:54
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Quote: "Maybe Vista's final release version will be compatible with DBC/DBP?"


I doubt MS will change its OS to work with DB. Most likely, TGC will need to update DB to work with Vista, which will require an update and require developers to recompile their projects using a changed version of DB that works with Vista.

Like I said though, DBC works just fine on Vista using the d3drm.dll, you don't even have to recompile your project or anything. DBPro does not currently work on the 5384 build of Vista Beta 2 and there isn't a similar work around option like there is for DBC. So an update will be required for DBPro to include Vista compatibility, which will require recompiling a project with a new version of Pro that works with Vista.

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