Sorry your browser is not supported!

You are using an outdated browser that does not support modern web technologies, in order to use this site please update to a new browser.

Browsers supported include Chrome, FireFox, Safari, Opera, Internet Explorer 10+ or Microsoft Edge.

FPSC Classic Product Chat / The games shourld be faster if untriangulate the segment-mesh!!

Author
Message
Mr Love
19
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 9th Jun 2005
Playing: MAFIA 2
Posted: 16th Aug 2006 21:53
Most segments are built with over 10 polygons, but if I untriangulate the segment-mesh it will only be exactly half as many polys as today. I have tested theese "Turbo-segments" and they work great! I think it seems like the games gets a little bit faster, but Im not sure because I always have 32-33fps anyway. But if this work You wourld see a faster game when having many animations, and huge maps etc.. Can a smart Person tell Me if this really works?

I want to see a FPSC Professional! And lets make it REALLY expensive this time......
Silvester
18
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 7th Dec 2005
Location: Netherlands
Posted: 16th Aug 2006 21:57
no-one can make anything faster with FPSC,the FPS is capped at 30...

with a nifty command as what i remember:



e-Drome Productions website,we renewed one with 1GB of webspace and Paypal!w00t!

e-Drome website
Mr Love
19
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 9th Jun 2005
Playing: MAFIA 2
Posted: 16th Aug 2006 21:59
Its not! I have played at 174fps!!!

I want to see a FPSC Professional! And lets make it REALLY expensive this time......
Silvester
18
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 7th Dec 2005
Location: Netherlands
Posted: 16th Aug 2006 22:02
Quote: "Its not! I have played at 174fps!!!
"


Pressing "X" is the secret young padawan.

e-Drome Productions website,we renewed one with 1GB of webspace and Paypal!w00t!

e-Drome website
Mr Love
19
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 9th Jun 2005
Playing: MAFIA 2
Posted: 16th Aug 2006 22:13
Yes, so what? Do You have 33fps even if You have 15 enemys in screen? The answer is no.. But if You untriangulate the segments You shourld at least have higher fps than today in that situation!

I want to see a FPSC Professional! And lets make it REALLY expensive this time......
Silvester
18
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 7th Dec 2005
Location: Netherlands
Posted: 16th Aug 2006 22:19
Quote: "Yes, so what? Do You have 33fps even if You have 15 enemys in screen? The answer is no.. But if You untriangulate the segments You shourld at least have higher fps than today in that situation!"


...it cant get higher then 38,whatever i do it stays under the 40 without pressing the ALMIGHTY: "X"-files,NO!!!!button.

because we got that mighty command:



inside FPSC's code.

e-Drome Productions website,we renewed one with 1GB of webspace and Paypal!w00t!

e-Drome website
uman
Retired Moderator
20
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 22nd Oct 2004
Location: UK
Posted: 16th Aug 2006 22:23 Edited at: 16th Aug 2006 22:26
In theory - if you have less polys it should help the fps in any game.

I cant say exactly how removing the triangles from say a simple wall entity by replacing that entity in FPSC with any new one you might make by utilising a model made from a simple cube without triangle intersections to the faces. It may affect the systems collision when it comes to character entities and they may be able to fall through them more easily when in collision with them?

Most default world object entities such as walls and general construction entities inside FPSC are composed of a relatively small number of polys purposefully so as to keep poly counts down.

The numbers involved should not really be too much for the engine to handle if the engine did not have the issues it does and FPSC did not render unecessary polys to view on the occasions it does.

Though obviously of importance - much more important to maintaining acceptable fps is the situation regarding characters and other dynamic entities affect on the engines capability.

Not sure of any more specific answer than that really - though if you always have 33 fps and by doing this you cannot even detect if the inclusion of your new segments make any difference at all then I dont see why you personally even need them.

In order to test for any improvement in efficiency - then one would need a level where say you add enough dynamic entity characters to drop the fps down to say 24 fps - then see if by introducing your new type segments in volume makes much difference - it may make some difference but is unlikely to make anything like the same amount of improvement by releasing back fps that removing dynamic entity characters from the level will and its these that in FPSC will make or break a level.

Whatever we do currently that can amount to a major investment in time and effort to optimise a level amounting to many months for example wont make a lot of difference when you start pilling in those dynamic entity characters.

However well optimised a level adding more than a few active dynamic characters to any in game scenario that is taking place in the view at any one time is likely to have a seriously dramatic impact on lowering fps - each character reducing the fps by a couple of fps - the more you add the worse their impact is likely to be. No way around that yet.

Of course your suggestion does nothing to help make the FPSC game world look better and more professional by allowing users to add interesting more complex shapes and structural detail to the levels. What we want is more and better of everything not less of everything.

Still its a good idea you suggest where simple shapes are concerned and I doubt you have anything to lose if the collision on the segment entities remains vaiable. More complex ones if you can maintain the structures credibility and visual appearance too.

Go for it.



"I am and forever will be your friend"
Mr Love
19
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 9th Jun 2005
Playing: MAFIA 2
Posted: 16th Aug 2006 22:26
You dont get it.. Im talking about keep the speed at 33fps even when having many objects and animations! This is not possible today...

I want to see a FPSC Professional! And lets make it REALLY expensive this time......
Disturbing 13
19
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 12th Apr 2005
Location: Murder Capital of the World
Posted: 16th Aug 2006 22:28
@Mr Love- please explain what you mean by 'untriangulate' as I am intrested n its use.

uman
Retired Moderator
20
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 22nd Oct 2004
Location: UK
Posted: 16th Aug 2006 22:36 Edited at: 16th Aug 2006 22:37
Disturbing 13,

He means polygon reduction of segment models just as you might do with your character models.

"I am and forever will be your friend"
Mr Love
19
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 9th Jun 2005
Playing: MAFIA 2
Posted: 16th Aug 2006 22:53
Thanks uman! In Cinema 4D I can untriangulate TGCs segments and it works great.. I havnt done so many tests yet, but it seems like the collision is not affected at all!

"If you always have 33 fps and by doing this you cannot even detect if the inclusion of your new segments make any difference at all then I dont see why you personally even need them."

Most often My framerate is fine, but as the most FPSC owners I also get fps problem sometimes.. Too many 3D animations seems to be the big problem, but with with untriangulated segments it may bring it up to at least 3-4fps more than today..

A big FPSC segment-wall can have a few hundred polys. But if I make a big wall in Cinema for exampel it only takes 2-12 polys!!! Quite a diffrence...


I want to see a FPSC Professional! And lets make it REALLY expensive this time......
Avenging Eagle
19
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 2nd Oct 2005
Location: UK
Posted: 16th Aug 2006 23:16
.X mesh files are like .3ds files in that they can't handle anything over 3 sides. I make a cube in anim8or, it has 6 faces, each one has 4 sides. But as soon as i export it as .3ds or .X, its "triangulated" automaticly so it can be read. This doubles the number of faces and since FPSC will only except .X mesh files, there's nothing you can do about it.

AE

Mr Love
19
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 9th Jun 2005
Playing: MAFIA 2
Posted: 16th Aug 2006 23:54
I did know that the most 3D softwares convert it to 12 polys.. But I courld not accept that a DBP program wourld do it as well.. But You might be right...


I want to see a FPSC Professional! And lets make it REALLY expensive this time......
uman
Retired Moderator
20
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 22nd Oct 2004
Location: UK
Posted: 16th Aug 2006 23:55
The point Mr. Love is trying to make is a very valid one.

Inside FPSC all objects have a shape - any shape at all must have a certain number of faces, vertex and ploygons in order for it to be credible and intact. It will be required that to maintain any particular shape a minimum number of these will be needed.

What Mr Love is saying is relative to a shape and the minumum number of polys needed to sustain that shapes form.

A cylinder for instance requires a minimum number of polys in order for that shape to be maintained in a credible form. It cant have less than the miminum number required but it can certainly have more and many models do have more than is strictly necessary.

Its just a waste to have any world object composed of more polys than necessary so it may be worth checking if any objects poly numbers can be reduced particularly if you are struggling to maintain fps.

Its not the biggest issue, nor perhaps may you gain a big impact by trying to cut out unwanted polys this way but every single fps more is vital inside a game made with FPSC.

"I am and forever will be your friend"
Les Horribres
19
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 20th Nov 2005
Location: My Name is... Merry
Posted: 17th Aug 2006 03:14
Quote: "Do You have 33fps even if You have 15 enemys in screen? The answer is "

yes... the fact is that the reason FPS slows down with enemys is because of the SCRIPTS they use, not their polies. Try it, run a game with 15 enemys, then remove their scripts and run it again, I have recorded an increase of 10fps before, just from removing the running scripts. Polys are not the biggest issue the engine has mr. love.

P.S. Didn't you bring something like this up before?

Quote: "FPSC will only accept .X mesh files"

And DBO files...

Your Mod was deleted by the Government.
the_winch
21
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 1st Feb 2003
Location: Oxford, UK
Posted: 17th Aug 2006 19:34
Quote: "The point Mr. Love is trying to make is a very valid one."


Not really, your graphics card can only deal with triangles. Untriangulating just means the model has to be triangulated again before the graphics card can use it so you end up where you started.

By way of demonstration, he emitted a batlike squeak that was indeed bothersome.
xplosys
18
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 5th Jan 2006
Playing: FPSC Multiplayer Games
Posted: 17th Aug 2006 21:01
@Merranvo

Interesting theory, so I did a little test. 12 entities (Aiko) in one room with me. (getting hot just thinking about it!)

With scripts = 26FPS
Without scripts = 28FPS

While I agree that polys are not the biggest issue, I can't agree about the scripts.

Specs: AMD Athlon64 3000+ CPU/1GB RAM/Radeon X550 PCIe w/256MB

Crazy Grandpa
bond1
19
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 27th Oct 2005
Location:
Posted: 17th Aug 2006 21:45 Edited at: 17th Aug 2006 21:51
Polygons and triangles are not necessarily the same thing.

Yes its true that fewer polys=faster games, but untriangulating a mesh isn't going to change a damn thing as far as poly count.

The model is still going to be converted into triangles by ANY game engine. A simple box that your modelling software shows as having 6 polys in reality has 12.

In fact I have a custom script for 3ds max that tracks the true triangle count instead of the poly count right inside the viewport.

So by "untriangulating" the mesh, as you say, doesn't change the poly/triangle count at all, regardless of what Cinema 4d says.

----------------------------------------
"Your mom went to college."
My FPSC stuff at http://hyrumark.zftp.com/FPSC/hyrumarkfpsc.htm
Locrian
19
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 21st Nov 2005
Location: Burton Mi.
Posted: 18th Aug 2006 15:01 Edited at: 18th Aug 2006 15:02
Bond and the_winch are right. Take that model that you untriangulated and re-import it. It will show the same amount of faces you had before. I don't know the script Bonds talking about but I use polygon counter for Max....which is the same thing I take it, but I have to click it instead of like hitting "7" if thats close to what Bonds talking about.

I belive this tri/quad debate has been played out here before but I may be thinking of another forum.

Loc
Benjamin A
19
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 31st Oct 2005
Location: The Netherlands
Posted: 18th Aug 2006 18:19 Edited at: 18th Aug 2006 18:19
Untriangulating the segments will not increase the speed at all. When triangulating a model it is ensuring that it will work in any other 3D application you import it into.

For example if you create a wall segment with a hole in through a boolean operation, that will work fine in your modeling application, but once exported you may end up with a wall without a hole in other 3D applications. But when you triangulate the model before exporting, the whole will be kept and appear in every other 3D application.

It has no influence at all at the polycount as mentioned before. But you may end up facing a different problem when untriangulating the segments and that is incorrect collisions. Also you could end up with wall segments looking completely different then the before they were untriangulated. You may loose vital segment info, like curves and such.

So save yourself the time and leave the segments as is. As Merranvo stated, the engine has a problem with running scripts, especailly scripts that control animated models. They do cause the biggest lag in a FPSC game.

http://www.gamefun4u.nl/index.html
GameFun4U, the ultimate funtainment. Cool Games and Resources for your own games.
Mr Love
19
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 9th Jun 2005
Playing: MAFIA 2
Posted: 19th Aug 2006 01:06
Benji:
"But you may end up facing a different problem when untriangulating the segments and that is incorrect collisions. Also you could end up with wall segments looking completely different then the before they were untriangulated."
Not correct.. I have already tryed this, and it works just as well as the original segment.. Im afraid that Bond1 is right.. The mesh converts to triangels... (I did know that I courld be wrong..)

Merranvo:
"Do You have 33fps even if You have 15 enemys in screen? The answer is yes..."
Lets see... 15 soldiers x 1200 polygons = 18000 polygons!!! Forget that You will play the game at 33fps with 15 sodiers in the same room, with or without scripts! By the way, its not the script itself that slows down the game. Its the animations...


I want to see a FPSC Professional! And lets make it REALLY expensive this time......
SpyDaniel
18
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 4th Feb 2006
Location: United Kingdom
Posted: 19th Aug 2006 01:30
It is the animations, as it lagged when ever I killed enemies, because of the death animation.
FredP
Retired Moderator
18
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 27th Feb 2006
Location: Indiana
Posted: 19th Aug 2006 01:33
That's because instead of just loading the animation(s) used by whatever script your have given your enemy entity it loads all of the models's animations,even if you don't use them in your script.

Benjamin A
19
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 31st Oct 2005
Location: The Netherlands
Posted: 19th Aug 2006 03:06
Quote: "Not correct.. I have already tryed this, and it works just as well as the original segment.. Im afraid that Bond1 is right.. The mesh converts to triangels... (I did know that I courld be wrong..)"


Mr Love..... read you're own statement. What does the engine do? It triangulates them again and that isn't just for fun. So once again save yourself the time and effort of untriangulating, the engine needs trangulated segments.

As for the lagging, it's still a combination of both, animation and scripts. I've done projects that did not use animation at all, but unsing a number of the scripts caused a tremendous lag. Combining scripts and animations makes it worse.

Once again, we're stuck with a problem none of us can solve. I've spent countless hours looking for solutions. It's taken up way to much time already, I'm going to live with FPSC as is, until TGC releases the solutions. Until then I'm going to create some nice projects in the time I've saved trying to find a solution for a problem we can't solve.

http://www.gamefun4u.nl/index.html
GameFun4U, the ultimate funtainment. Cool Games and Resources for your own games.

Login to post a reply

Server time is: 2024-11-25 10:20:06
Your offset time is: 2024-11-25 10:20:06