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FPSC Classic Product Chat / Open areas slow down gameplay...

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Lunarwolf
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Posted: 26th Aug 2006 12:45
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I didnt put this in the "bugs" section because I dont think it is an abnormality within my build of the FPSC program, so I have commented here:

For the first level of my current game, it is mainly outdoor enviroments with buildings that the player can enter and explore. When out in the open the game is horribly slow (almost unplayable) and only speeds up when "inside".

I began by thinking it was running slow because of the amount of rendering / frame-rate count "on screen" in the open areas, so tried a few tricks such as putting walls in the player's immediate view so less polys needed to be drawn at once.

It doesnt work. Its still painfully slow.

My question is: is there a way around this? or is it a limitation of the game engine? when I think back to older FPS games (like Deus Ex, Realms Of The Haunting etc...) I dont remember any such "lag-traps" in open-area parts of the game...

...does anyone know of any way I can get the game to run faster without having to re-do the whole level? (at the moment you need to keep the "shift" key pressed to keep auto-running otherwise it really is too slow)

Thanks in advance, LW
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HandK
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Posted: 26th Aug 2006 13:35 Edited at: 26th Aug 2006 13:35
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"Big Caves" are faster than "Open Areas"

H&K
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xplosys
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Posted: 26th Aug 2006 16:07
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Well, you're right about it not being a bug. It's just a limitation of the program. I've heard many different theories about increasing frame rates in outdoor areas from invisible ceilings and walls to breaking it up as you described above.

What seems to work best at the moment is to make your outdoor area small, and limiting side view as much as possible. I wish I knew more.

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Lunarwolf
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Posted: 26th Aug 2006 18:26
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Its a start, thank you
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ExSpirit
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Posted: 27th Aug 2006 00:02
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Well not only walls/ceiling are the problem for lag. I made full sized hallway with walls/ground/ceiling. This works OK, but when I added large number of gold (dynamic) the game laged badly. Also when I make full size map open (no ceiling) works OK, when I add random large number of items game lags badly. How many items can we import then?
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ExSpirit
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Posted: 27th Aug 2006 00:39
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I now imported gold(static) and there is no lag. So the problem is the dynamic items?
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Benjamin A
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Posted: 27th Aug 2006 20:38
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Best thing to do is block the view with mountains and don't put to many enemies in the open area and then it works fine. In my game, Commander Josh, there is an outdoor level and works fast. I did put mountains to block the view and the enemies I've placed in small buildings. That way you can make large outdoor scenes that atill obtain top speed.

http://www.gamefun4u.nl/index.html
GameFun4U, the ultimate funtainment. Cool Games and Resources for your own games.
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Gehngis Kahn
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Posted: 28th Aug 2006 19:16
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great idea. I think I remember that method being used in parts of The PUNISHER game. (in addition to the classic "invisible walls of course)

In a Jungle stage, the level itself was split into many large rooms. The enemies were usually in "watch houses" and would only come out if you opened the door, fired into the window, or were spotted in thier field of vision.

The walls were well-textured to look like thick forest greenery, and a few rocks were placed to keep them from feeling 100% flat.

At key points, even though you are in "the outdoors", you would hit an invisible "goal" zone...such as maybe a gaping hole in a brick wall, which led to the next section.

I see a lot of potential for outdoors levels, but optimization is probably the key to making levels that dont crash... i.e. lowering enemy texture quality, possibly removing shadows, and separating the outdoors into more segments?
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Lunarwolf
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Posted: 29th Aug 2006 09:53
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Agreed.

I will redesign the level, I think. Its a shame, I was quite proud of what I had achieved (minus lack of speed...), but I'll just have to start again....

Still, with all these mistakes I am making, I should have a pretty solid game by the time I finally get it right...
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Disturbing 13
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Posted: 29th Aug 2006 17:28 Edited at: 29th Aug 2006 17:32
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@Lunarwolf- I dont know if this will help but Maybe try and put some invisible floor panels as a roof to see if that helps the speed. This way your level is technically closed in. it's just the cieling is seethrough.

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Lunarwolf
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Posted: 29th Aug 2006 18:45
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Plan.

Cheers D13 - I'll let you know
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Disturbing 13
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Posted: 29th Aug 2006 19:02
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please do, I havn't tried this myself and have plans for a level with some small outdoor areas.

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brummel
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Posted: 29th Aug 2006 20:21
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I have made a level for my game with a very, very large room, with 2 enemies attacking the player at once, both with my latest Intellimatter script, and some lights and one dynamic light that is blinking and a decal and lots of entities, and i still manage to have 32 fps. My specs are quite standard: 2,2 Ghz processor, 1024 mb RAM and Nvidia 6600GT. Even the loadingtime is surprisingly short for the size of the level.

My site is now updated with info and a teaser about my game The Peacemakers. My blog is now ready and i have written my first contribution!

Check it out now!
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uman
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Posted: 29th Aug 2006 21:34
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Your OK with 2 enemies and you would expect to be.

A complex level with 1000 entities which can certainly not overcrowd a level of the size of the FPSC world is likely to be another matter.

There are things now that can be done to optimise a level to a certain extent - but involves a great deal of hard work. Information is available around the forum.

Again before users take drastic action to redesign levels I would move on to something else and wait and see what the update brings.

It may bring some improvement - it may not.

It will no doubt though have some impact one way or another on your game development.

My belief overall is it will have a positive one.

Disturbing 13,

Might be a good idea if someone were to enclose the FPSC world in a big invisible box for an outdoor level as see how it may affect fps. Zoneing by adding invisible walls world floor to ceiling might help too - it has to be tried. The problem is one need develop a very large complex game inside it to test it out fully and thats a lot of work. If someone like myself who has such an existing level it could be added I guess.

I'll wait for the update first and see what that brings.



"I am and forever will be your friend"
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Disturbing 13
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Posted: 29th Aug 2006 22:39
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Well I did a test level that was accually kinda complex for an FPSC game, and had one huge area with high walls and it was the only place that lagged at 27fps. I popped a cieling onto it and the whole level was at 32fps including that room. It was using all stock media wich we all know takes up more space than is needed due to backsides and outer walls. So Imagine a completely custom made Level using no backside work would have some great framerate.

I'm thinking about how it would work if I follow your suggestion and make the outer walls and floors one huge segment effectively sealing off the whole level with invisible geometry at a low polycount of 12 tris. It may be a worthwhile endevor.

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uman
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Posted: 29th Aug 2006 22:56
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Wait for the update and see what improvements that brings unless you have the time to spare in the mean time.

Anything gained in terms of knowledge such as you might discover though will never be a waste of time and can always be implimenteded and incorporated further after any update.

Whatever - I am sure any additional fps that can be gained will never be too much so its all adding to the level optimisation weapons we have at our disposal.

Whatever speed improvements if any may be made to the proiduct its likely that users will still need to play their part and optimise heavily if game content is complex.

Who knows we may eventually get to a stage where we can have qulaity game content and level design and good gameplay speeds throughout too.

All that assumes that the serious lagg issue will be fixed sooner or later - if not its blowing wind.

Whatever the level a game must have relatively consistant fps throughout and the SLI throws cold water upon that possibility.

We need to get rid of the dramatic fluctuations in ploy counts FPSC can return over differing tiles and the resultant massive fps fluctuations that can exist from one tile to the next. 32fps on this tile - 18fps or even 1fps and possible game crash on the next.



"I am and forever will be your friend"
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Lunarwolf
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Posted: 30th Aug 2006 13:47
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Agreed, Uman.

As things stand now, I have redesigned the level to have many "alleyways", so the skybox is still very evident, but it has a more claustraphobic feel.

As it happens, it works really well, especially with one or more enemy in hot pursuit; though the blind alleys are a bit mean of me (LOL).

The frame-rate seems fairly constant, fluxuating slightly, but generally speaking it is a massive improvement over my first design. I will release the first level as a Demo upon finishing it; but please dont expect a masterpiece - we are talking a first attempt here) - but any suggestions/comments would be appreciated.

As for the idea of invisible walls / the entire level incases in an invisible box; I will give it a try (assuming nobody beats me to it) at get back to you all.
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Zizaco
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Posted: 1st Sep 2006 20:46
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Hmmm... turn the map in the wireframe mode... Every "tile" of it has two triangles, plus tro triangles in every side and down of it! every tile is a cube.
A open area means alot of then! it slow down a lot!
so... to make open areas just model the area in a software, and import to FPSC. a road cam be only two triangles!
Normaly, if you make a road in FPSC editor you will have at least 500 triangles!

Try it!

Sorry for my bad inglish!
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uman
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Posted: 2nd Sep 2006 00:00 Edited at: 2nd Sep 2006 00:09
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If you use a large entity as a road like that you may get problems with collision. Not so much from the player perspective but from the NPC/enemy point of view.

Only by trying will you find out.

Of course it may be that you have a deserted City in which case it wont matter perhaps.

Quite honestly you can achieve quite open and complex outdoor levels and still maintain playable game speeds. The only thing that will kill you is the serious lagg issue if it crops up in specific small areas and that you cant do a great deal about to overcome the issue other than build around those areas - even then it sometimes forces the lagg to appear elsewhere. Has a mind of its own it does.

I read some interestinmg stuff over at the DBPro forums about culling recently but its nothing which would provide a solution for more efficient culling in reducing polys during compile and gameplay yet in FPSC. Just interesting to understand something of what goes on in the engine and how others are trying to find solutions for improvement.



"I am and forever will be your friend"
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