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2D All the way! / 2D still not dead yet...

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2D Analyst
AGK Developer
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Posted: 23rd Oct 2006 21:59
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People are saying that 2D games are dead and everyone heading toward the 3D directions. Here is what I think..

The graphics are obivously more detailed and relatistic in 3D, but just because it's 3D, doesn't mean the gameplay is fun. Nowadays...developers create games that uses 2D/3D graphic. Usually the models are in 3D, but the camera is set to a 2D view, where it'll still have classic 2D gameplay with 3D graphic.

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Grog Grueslayer
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Posted: 24th Oct 2006 00:17
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Those really addictive puzzle games are in 2D too. And those sell like crazy... everybody has at least one on their computer.
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Gamedesign er20
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Posted: 24th Oct 2006 02:21
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I would feel sorry for the world the day 2D is gone, after all, 2D is a fun care-free type of game layout which is highly addictive. I already feel bad though, that there is very little people roaming the 2D board so you have to wait more than a week for someone to answer your question.

Cocacola and Pepsi aren't that differnt. Deal with it.
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Indigo
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Posted: 24th Oct 2006 03:53 Edited at: 24th Oct 2006 03:55
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2d is not dead, its just moved to mobile platforms such as cell phones, GBA, etc.

check out these
www.gameloft.com
www.glu.com

and the last project i worked on (which combines both 3d and 2d):
www.miuchiz.com

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da power pwnerer
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Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Posted: 24th Oct 2006 13:47
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2d is classic, which is the best in my opinion

I chink i know you but i could be wong
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Kentaree
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Posted: 24th Oct 2006 16:22
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I make mobile phone games for a living, which is a thriving industry at the moment, and 90% of games done for mobiles are in 2D

Nephin Games
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Van B
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Posted: 24th Oct 2006 17:01
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At the end of the day, 2D will never die - because there will always be developers like us using 2D techniques and media, sometimes in a 3D environment, but that's not the point.

Platforms like the NDS and GBA, and mobile phone and other handheld platforms push the need for 2D games, these are not ideal for 3D engines so 2D is still strong. I have a lot of ideas for NDS games that are all 2D. One major thing I need to do though is make a NDS sprite editor, for making pixel art, imagine using the stylus to draw pixel art while scrolling around a massive image in the top screen.

Personally, I'd rather look at Indigo's mad parrot than any number of rendered 3D parrots, it's amazing how you can convey personality and mood with simple pixels. Hehe, you shuld do a pixel art xmas card for the TGC card compo (geek culture), pixel santa etc, it would work very nicely IMO.

But as I said, 2D will never die as long as there's 1 coder and 1 customer left.

''Stick that in your text and scroll it!.''
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wildbill
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Posted: 24th Oct 2006 17:54
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The whole reason I started learning to program was for 2d. I am a bit of a meglomaniac. I want to control huge armies or countries, not individuals or small units. The best way to accomplish this is in 2d, with a top down view. In fact using the tried and true wargames of old (can you say hexagons) as examples, but with improved graphics is starting to look really good on my computer.
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Kaurotu
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Posted: 25th Oct 2006 04:42
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2D will never die.

Reason #1 - People who enter the game development world always start with 2D graphics. They are easier and "cheaper" to make. The problem with 3D, especially new content, is the time and animation process. Oh, and let's not forget the cost. Point being, you will never have to calculate "dead on" physics and vectors with 2D. Nor' spend hundreds or even thousands of dollars to make 2D.

Reason #2 - 2D games are extremly addictive. The classic feel of 2D really seems to be a big hit with people. Especially if they owned an Atari.

Let's just say this. 2D will always have a place in the game world.
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Gamedesign er20
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Posted: 26th Oct 2006 03:29
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Quote: "People who enter the game development world always start with 2D graphics."

Maybe with other programming languages, but for DarkBASIC, their is a so little amount of 2D tutorials that it's harder to do 2D in the beggining. I myself started out with basic 3D programs, and then decided to learn 2D, but it wasn't easy since the only way I was able to do so was by searching through old codes on the forum.

Cocacola and Pepsi aren't that differnt. Deal with it.
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Kaurotu
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Posted: 26th Oct 2006 04:01
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@Gamedesign er20

Well what I meant by that is in my opinion it would just seem logical for a new game developer to create 2D games. And actually I believe that the "Hands on DarkBASIC Volume 1" doesn't say anythng about 3D. And that book is huge and is obviously meant for beginners. I'm not saying it's impossible to start out with 3D, it would just seem like a little to overwhleming for the beginning game developer.
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Kevin Picone
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Posted: 26th Oct 2006 15:40
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Well, I don't really swallow the whole '2D is the easier' option. Throwing a beginner game together in 2D/3D in DBpro is fairly straight forward. Given a realistic idea. Since that's what the 3D engine is there to give users. A handy prop up.

The one thing I notice about 2D scene today, is just how little conceptual knowledge is surviving. For example, take a concept like the good old platform game. We don't have to look far, to see a number of programmers getting lost trying to build what many would call a trivial game design by today's standards. So something is missing in the equation.


PB V1.51 & ColdSteel3D Released - Next Generation PlayBasic FX & PlayBasic 3D Available soon!
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Kentaree
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Posted: 26th Oct 2006 17:29
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@Kevin Picone: I think the whole problem there is the "2D is easy" attitude. 2D coding is an art form just like any kind of programming, but most people seem to think that just pasting a sprite is 2D programming.

Nephin Games
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2D Analyst
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Posted: 26th Oct 2006 23:00
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From a non-programmer perspective, they judge game by the graphics. So, if a game got some realistic detailed 3D graphic, they will think, "O it must be hard to make" verse a game with simple graphic such as pac man, "O it must be easy to make"

This was my first reaction when I first started with DarkBasic Pro. Darkbasic has more 3D commands than 2D commands. If a user wants to create an action rpg game, I think programminmg in 3D is easier, but more time in creating 3D graphics. Programming 2D will be harder, but less time in creating 2D graphics.

www.simpoware.com
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Grog Grueslayer
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Posted: 26th Oct 2006 23:22
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Quote: "From a non-programmer perspective, they judge game by the graphics."


Yeah it still annoys me when kids won't even look at a classic text adventure game like Zork... "What? No graphics?!?!"
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Gamedesign er20
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Posted: 27th Oct 2006 00:44
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Quote: " So, if a game got some realistic detailed 3D graphic, they will think, "O it must be hard to make""


That theory is somewhat true, maybe not in programming wise, but for the art part of the game, the detailed 3D graphics would be alot harder to make then a 2D sprite.

Cocacola and Pepsi aren't that differnt. Deal with it.
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Kaurotu
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Posted: 27th Oct 2006 00:48
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Well mostly what I meant by my first post is the graphics part of game creation. I never said anything about programming 2D. Now, you must at least agree with me on this: 2D GRAPHICS are easier to make. That's why I said the beginning game developer should start with 2D. Just an example to shead some light...this is like comparing Blender and Photoshop. My God, Blender is the hardest program I've ever used. Before you think up a to start flaming me...yes, I know 3D programs are getting easier and easier to use. But now, compare cost: 3DS Max(even MilkShape) vs GIMP. C'mon.

It's all just about what you want to create and how much time(or money) you want to spend on it. All I can say is my first game in DB Pro will be 2D for sure.
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Indigo
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Posted: 27th Oct 2006 01:45 Edited at: 27th Oct 2006 01:46
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good 2D graphics are no easier to make than good 3D graphics. your claims opposing such is blasphemous. But what *is* true is 2D graphics are easier to get started into. Alot goes into making an effective and brilliant 2d sprite. look at metal slug for example.

I, having expirience in both 3d and 2d work, can back my claims.

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Kaurotu
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Posted: 27th Oct 2006 02:19
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@Indigo

Quote: "But what *is* true is 2D graphics are easier to get started into."


Well, it's kind of funny when I said that in my FIRST post and then I get shot down saying that I'm wrong. Interesting.

And I still don't understand how you can say difficulty in 2D and in 3D are the same. Yes I know Metal Slug's 2D is the shiznit, but think about a game of the size in 3D...
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2D Analyst
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Posted: 27th Oct 2006 19:16
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Generally speaking, 3D graphics are tougher to produced than 2D graphics meaning it'll take up more time, more skills and more money.

For example: creating a character

2D process:
create a 2D image (could be save in the same file or multiple file)

3D process:
create a model
create a 2D image (could be save in the same file or multiple file)

In 3D modelling, a character needs skin to cover up the model. This is where the 2D image is mapped to the model.

www.simpoware.com
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Kaurotu
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Posted: 27th Oct 2006 23:38
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Quote: "Generally speaking, 3D graphics are tougher to produced than 2D graphics meaning it'll take up more time, more skills and more money."


Exactly what I meant the WHOLE time.
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Van B
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Posted: 27th Oct 2006 23:50
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Personally I'd say that 3D is harder to make media for, but easier to code, and 2D is easier to make media for, but harder to code.

It's straightforward to make a sprite, but then things like z-depth sorting and collision come to mind and you remember just how complex it can get. With 3D there are easy options, physics engines, and if you can make media then it's IMO far easier than 2D. I mean, in 3D you have easy access to model data, like limb positions, making complex tasks in 2D fairly straightforward in 3D, picking up objects and attaching them - in 2D you have a whole different problem.

I think that to get the most from DBPro, you have to mix it up, using 3D plains and simple meshes to show traditional sprites opens up a lot of possibilites. In a game myself and pincho made a while ago, we used a bone structure on a flat mesh to make it sway back and forth - there's a lot of tricks you can do with this stuff, swinging chains would be scarily simple with this method - even dynamically swinging the chain based on the player. The added effects and features you have with 3D is a major boon as well, ghosting obviously, but scrolling limb textures to animate them or even just scaling them can produce really smooth 2D gameplay.

''Stick that in your text and scroll it!.''
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PhillTec
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Posted: 15th Nov 2006 18:21
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From an art point of view, as I can draw I can do 2D sprites, but 3D is a completely different thing. Also, it seems like you need lots of different software to make a 3D game, not only DB or whatever, but model making software, (possibly different s/ware to make the model and animate it), something to make landscapes on and loads of time to learn to use it. With 2D I just use a scanner and Photoshop or whatever.
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