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3 Dimensional Chat / Why waste time building a world editor? (just use limbs!)

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Redmotion
21
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Joined: 16th Jan 2003
Location: Mmm mmm.. Marmite
Posted: 22nd Nov 2006 15:15
I still have to wonder why there is a point to building a custom level editor. In HL2, you use Hammer because the geometry it creates has a specific purpose - BSP.

Now DBPro used to support BSP(I don't know if it does now and besides, the use of it comes with various licensing problems) so creating levels and objects in anything other than a 3d program seems to be unnecessary elaboration to work flow, especially when you decide to code it yourself. (Unless you don't have to work, this is literally months of time that could be focused on actually making the game.)

The DBPro limbs give the opportunity to create and plan everything within a single 3d app and export out direct x file.

If your 3d program of choice allows you to name the limbs as you wish then you are already sorted. The limb commands allow you to read the position, names, etc., as well as hide them, and then there's the magic command "Make object from limb".

There is nothing you can add to a custom level editor that you couldn't adapt to use in an existing 3d package.

For example: place a cube called "particles" as a place holder for the location of particles. Or elaborate by pre designing say, 10 different particle systems and name the limbs "part01" to "part10". When loading the level, hide the original limb and use it's name to specify the type, it's position to locate the emitter.

This works just as well for start positions, enemy positions, objects, scenery. If interactions are more complex, such as model that can be broken ar destroyed, create seperate models for the item and use a tiny cube in your level file as a placeholder.

You may end up with slightly bigger files but it will save months of messing around making a level editor when you could have had your game half finished.

Cash Curtis II
19
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Joined: 8th Apr 2005
Location: Corpus Christi Texas
Posted: 22nd Nov 2006 15:19
It is common to do this with 3D World Studio. Not everyone has that program though.


Come see the WIP!
TEH_CODERER
21
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Joined: 12th Nov 2003
Location: Right behind you!
Posted: 22nd Nov 2006 16:51
Fortunately, not everyone is this lazy. With your own level editor you get the experience and learning from coding it yourself as well as enhanced functionality and the possibility of scripting. I guess if you really have absolutely no desire or need to make your own then fine but in my opinion there is always a reason.

RUCCUS
19
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Joined: 11th Dec 2004
Location: Canada
Posted: 22nd Nov 2006 17:18
There's still something to be said for level editors. You can do collision/physics tests on your objects as you place them to make sure nothing is floating or going through a wall. You can run test AI-routes while placing AI spawners down to make sure they dont go bug-eyes when they run into a lamp post, you could even drive around in your world in a truck that drops random debris everywhere it goes. Not to mention the fact that you can get realistic frame rate returns while modelling your world, heck, you could even make the modeller online and have a team of world builders working on the world together. Now thatd be sick, and something you cant do with a modelling app.

Sure its easier in the short time period but in the long run having a world editor custome built to your game is a huge benefit. Especially if you've got an adaptable world builder engine that only takes minor tweaking to get working in any game.

How could I forget to mention the importation of 3d terrains, the creation of matrices, placing shaders on certain models, using plantmaps and other environment maps to place down large numbers of similar objects, all of which arent available in any free modelling apps (and im pretty sure not in any commercial ones either, except for maybe the terrain generation).

Redmotion
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Joined: 16th Jan 2003
Location: Mmm mmm.. Marmite
Posted: 22nd Nov 2006 22:47
RUCCUS, you are totally right about the testing of AI and physics within a custom editor, that totally makes sense. But I think if you have an idea about the effect you want, you can, within a couple of exports/playtests, get pretty close to the desired effect without the luxury of instant tests in a custom world editor. Which is how I'm prepared to work.

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RUCCUS
19
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Joined: 11th Dec 2004
Location: Canada
Posted: 22nd Nov 2006 22:53
This got me thinking though; the next time I need input on a map design, I might just create an online map editor and allow everyone to join in and work on the map. If it takes 1 person an hour to make a city, you'd have a huge metropolis in an hour concidering all the people working on it. Ive never seen an online map editor done before, this could be really cool .

indi
22
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Joined: 26th Aug 2002
Location: Earth, Brisbane, Australia
Posted: 23rd Nov 2006 00:43
I skipped the whole editor thing after building 2 different versions and use fuzzy logic to place items.
My computer makes the maps and sets the scene.
The game will always be different, I can have virtually unlimited maps, not even I know where the potions and quests are. Maps are harder to hack, less media for one person to make, etc etc...

jasonhtml
20
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Joined: 20th Mar 2004
Location: OC, California, USA
Posted: 23rd Nov 2006 20:49
Ruccus, i think u just stumbled upon something fantastic

indi, your absolutely right. games with less media make it so much easier...


forum.thegamecreators.com/?m=forum_view&t=78971&b=8&p=0
forum.thegamecreators.com/?m=forum_view&t=91115&b=32
RUCCUS
19
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Joined: 11th Dec 2004
Location: Canada
Posted: 23rd Nov 2006 23:49
aye, ive been taking the idea further. After exams tomorrow ill be trying to put together a prototype of it.





Got to talking on IRC, and I figure this could really be a useful tool. For all of the game dev teams that get together in the tgc community, all of the modellers and level designers could log into the world editor and share their ideas while building the world in real time. The host of the world would have admin commands to keep everything in order, like limiting the amount of polygons allowed per import of model, limiting the amount of model imports per x number of minutes, limiting the number of polygons the world can have at one time, etc.

If all else fails, I could add a quick shoot-em-up routine to the program and let the IRCers run lose modelling a crazy world full of huge cats and newbies on fire, and then let em' rip through it killing each other.

Either way I think itll be pretty fun. Best thing is, its simple to make.

- RUC'

Oddmind
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Joined: 20th Jun 2004
Location: Atlanta, Georgia
Posted: 24th Nov 2006 06:06
Let this not turn into another mosaic thing, where people get to crap up each others work.

Sounds fun though

formerly KrazyJimmy

Prayers for rain...
wildbill
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Joined: 14th Apr 2006
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Posted: 24th Nov 2006 14:57
I like the idea of a on-line world building collaborative effort. I think you would have to post a detailed design document. This would keep people from designing buildings with a modern theme, when you are actually looking for a middle ages type world. Better yet you could include primitives like Greek columns, so they don't use modern columns. Other primitives could include doors,windows or even furniture. (Hope this makes sense, I'm using a Blackberry to type and I've only had it for a couple of weeks)
RUCCUS
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Joined: 11th Dec 2004
Location: Canada
Posted: 24th Nov 2006 17:39
Id assume those details would be covered by the lead designer for the team. Obviously if the designer asks them to create a medieval world, and while walking around the city-under-work he notices someone importing a space station, he'll raise a comment or kick the person if he sees fit.

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