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FPSC Classic Product Chat / FOG ON/OFF/COLOR/RANGE FPI Actions

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LeeBamber
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Posted: 24th Nov 2006 02:56
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Hi Guys,

We have had a few requests for FOG commands for a future FPSC update, and I wanted to give the subject some time to bounce around in its own thread for a while. I think we all agree bugs and weird issues are the priority at the moment, but there is no harm in fielding the subject for a community lead approach to the challenge and potential of fog. So post your short'n'sweet contributions to the matter, and resist the urge to justify suggesting vehicle-support as an extension of the ability to control in-game fog via FPI scripts

"Small, smart, and running around the legs of dinosaurs to find enough food to survive, bedroom programmers aren't extinct after all "
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Jon Fletcher
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Posted: 24th Nov 2006 03:08 Edited at: 24th Nov 2006 03:10
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i think fog is a great idea, and should be implemented soon, it would be good to use with some sort of scene degradation system, where judging by the players distance, the model doesn't get drawn on screen. The fog can cover this to make the transition seamless.

im sure it will help frame rates, by how much im not sure.


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Silent Thunder
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Posted: 24th Nov 2006 03:59
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in addition to what Jon said, I think that it would be great if we could change the distance at chich the fog begins, so it isn't all just fixed.

also, if anything is behind the fog, it shouldn't be rendered.



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filya
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Posted: 24th Nov 2006 04:41
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Fog will be more helpful only if it polys lost in the fog arent rendered. This will really help open terrains.
And also, the density of the fog will be a good thing to be able to change.

I don't know if this is related, but can this fog me made local? I mean maybe you can draw a fog zone or something?

-- game dev is fun...but taking up too much time --
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Airslide
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Posted: 24th Nov 2006 05:14
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It's real easy to not render what is beyond the fog - in DBP you can do something like this:



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Silent Thunder
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Posted: 24th Nov 2006 05:29
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Airslide, could you add that to your fpsc source mod if it's just a few lines of code?



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Airslide
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Posted: 24th Nov 2006 06:05
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Ya, quite easily - as soon as they release the final 1.04 source

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Avenging Eagle
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Posted: 24th Nov 2006 08:23
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If you do impliment fog, i suggest only having it affect the map, we still want to see the sky-box

AE

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Wehtam_
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Posted: 24th Nov 2006 08:52
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I'm surprised the black character issue has not been mentioned yet.
I have this problem, which is shared by many on the forum, where by initiating fog will cause the character entities to immediately turn pitch black.

If I face a character entity, then walk into a trigger zone which activates fog, they will turn pitch black as if totally unilluminated. Removing fog resolves the issue.

This is the reason for me why fog is currently a neddy-no-no.

If this issue can be resolved ( fingers crossed ) Then I have a few other items on the fog wish list.

* As Avenging Eagle meantioned above, some games would require the skybox to remain visible ( e.g sci fi space skybox ). where as others may prefer the sky to be affected by the fog ( e.g Silent Hill type game ) - though actually i suppose you could just have a skybox that matches the colour of fog for that.

* Range would be a great option, and to be able to easily change it with trigger zones would really help seperate areas of the map, along with having the ability to alter the fog colour.

Hope these help
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Reality Forgotten
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Posted: 24th Nov 2006 09:05
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With Fog enabled properly everything not directly in th eplayers sight will not be rendered. I know some of the speed issues have been fixed and we appreciate them, I think this is that next step to make this a stronger competitor to other engines offered to us.

Some things I would recommend though, Is fix the bug that turns all dynamic entities solid black when fog is turned on or set at level begining. and we need some volume to it. as it is now it's kind of a feeble fog that does not like to come out and play...we need the fog to be a schoolyard bully!


RF

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RickV
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Posted: 24th Nov 2006 12:07 Edited at: 24th Nov 2006 12:08
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I think the best way to implement the fog idea is to do the following:

1) In the preferences/effects add:
- fog depth setting (0= no fog up to 100% = cannot see my hand!)
- fog start colour
2) Add a new Fog Zone object, when the player steps into it one or both of the following can be modified:
- Adjust the depth based on the setting in the zone
- Change the fog to a different colour (using a nice blend effect)

This approach makes it simple to set up and powerful because you can change it during the game. For example, you might start to increase the fog as you walk into a dank sewer, then when you come back out, you clear the fog again.

These trigger zones would always stay live in the game, allowing players to move in and out of fogged areas.

Do people agree with this idea? Is there a better implementation?

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Butter fingers
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Posted: 24th Nov 2006 12:30
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I like that.

Maybe, decals should be slightly more visible in fog than other stuff, that way permitting some nice light halo decals.

I think it would be cool if you could draw out a fog zone though.. I don't know if that s what you were saying rich, but it would be nice if for example, you could look down into a valley and the base of the valley would be fogged. Not only when you stood in the base, but when you looked at it from above.

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MK83
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Posted: 24th Nov 2006 13:06
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yes, thats moving in the right direction.


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bond1
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Posted: 24th Nov 2006 13:35 Edited at: 24th Nov 2006 13:51
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I really like Rick V's idea of being able to change the settings on the fly in-game. You could go from having a murky, claustropobic setting to something more subtle.

I've always liked games that use at least SOME fog. Even a small amount adds more depth and realism and can be used to simulate environmental haze. I've never liked games where you can see crystal clear seemingly for miles into the distance.

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SpyDaniel
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Posted: 24th Nov 2006 14:06
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Iam not interested in fog, that much, as I am interested in multiple textures. Right now you can only have 1 texture on an object, so say your model is two boxes, one box can have a red texturem the other a blue, but the boxes cant have multiple textures on each face.

I thought fog was already a part of fpsc, anyway?

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FredP
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Posted: 24th Nov 2006 14:23
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If you want to call that fog...
I agree with quite a few of the above suggestions.
Fix the "fog turns entities black" bug.
I like the idea RickV had.Being able to change the fog on the fly (instead of just in the global settings) would be excellent.

http://www.wembley1967.com
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RickV
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Posted: 24th Nov 2006 14:34
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The fog we can easily implement is distance drawing fog. Maybe if the trigger point actually allows you to set the visible distance with a circle (like the lights) then this would be a cool way of seeing what you'll get before you test the game.

I will also tell Lee to fix the black objects with fog issue.

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transient
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Posted: 24th Nov 2006 14:35 Edited at: 24th Nov 2006 14:49
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This is a great idea.

The ability to blend different coloured fog zones together is an interesting concept.

[edit] It would be even better if you could animate the fog properties over time, or with triggers.

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Nickydude
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Posted: 24th Nov 2006 15:03
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Glad to see the XP version is still getting a good seeing too Sounds great.


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Roger Wilco
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Posted: 24th Nov 2006 15:41
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Fog would be über-nice if it would work as suggested (ie entities beyond the fog won't be rendered).
But how about working on making those "secret" dynamic shadows a bit better?

Oh dark, the darkness that dozes in the dusk. Throw it all away. No one can break you, nobody can tear you. You live an endless life forever.
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uman
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Posted: 24th Nov 2006 16:27 Edited at: 24th Nov 2006 16:28
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Fog is good - the more sophisticated, felxible and controllable the better just as with anything else - its needless to say.

As far as I am aware Fog does not necessarily have a good impact on fps in an engine - it can have the opposite effect. I guess it depends on what its tied into. Fog does not provide for clipping or objects not rendering beyond visibility range unless the engine supports such which FPSC does not.

Now fog and clipping ranges might be a different matter.



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Benjamin A
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Posted: 25th Nov 2006 00:15
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Fog is only interesting if it's combined with clipping ranges indeed. If that isn't implemented at the same time, fog will only slow fown FPSC even more.

Also I do like the idea of good fog in FPSC, as long as it doesn't make all characters black as the current fog does.

So my suggestion is fog with color and range control, combined with a clipping range, so that everthing behind the fog will not get rendered. That could speed up FPSC a lot.

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flashing snall
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Posted: 25th Nov 2006 00:24
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Every one does know that there was a fog script awhile back right?

anyway... more adjustable fog would be nice, maybe if it got played with enough, you could work out smoke or steam that could hit roofs or floors, and bounce off. Be neat affect.


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Benjamin A
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Posted: 25th Nov 2006 01:30
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Yes, I know, I've created the script http://forum.thegamecreators.com/?m=forum_view&t=71197&b=23

But that's not 'real' fog and it has no clipping or distance control. Lee is talking about implementing a new kind of fog now.

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filya
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Posted: 25th Nov 2006 20:44
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yes RickV. That sounds fantastic. If it works, it will be great (and I assume there will be clipping of polys in the fog?)

-- game dev is fun...but taking up too much time --
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uman
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Posted: 25th Nov 2006 20:56
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Benjamin A,

I know we all would like clipping as a method of speeding up fps by reducing poly counts - its one of the only real ways to improve the fps in FPSC now that general overall fps is improved.

TGC have indicated here that the fog feature may be looked at.

However without being in a position to be freely able to comment fully on the aforementioned issue (clipping) as a means of helping increase fps and gameplay speeds I dont believe that its likely to be on the cards at the moment. It may need to form part of a larger more complex engine update than is currently able to be included in the current run of them. In other words its a big job and may have to take into account a number of complex engine modifications which are very time consumming and which may impact on various other areas of the engine so much time and investment in R&D may be required

Its not really my place to say but am just trying to suggest that users should not be dissapointed if it cant be done for the moment at least. TGC I am sure will do the best they can for the product and users at any given time.

I would love to see it included as everyone knows its what would partly help in fixing my biggest gripe with FPSC and that is the Serious Lagg Issue which I am led to believe may be fixable by an updating of the engine LOD and Culling procedures.

I hope that Lee and TGC may consider again the issues of Poly reduction now that other users are requesting the same here and I am sure they will at approproiate time. I just dont think it will happen any time soon.

Thats how I see the situation anyway but who knows things are changing fast around here it would seem so I just live in hope with you all.

TGC are commenting more openly now inside the community at last so perhaps they will clarify for you the situation whereas I am unable to comment any more than I have.

I wish us all much luck with that.

It should be obvious now that FPSC is a very successful TGC product and with that will come improvements. From users point of view the more we get the more we will want and that can only be further advancement both for FPSC and the users base which should continue to grow with the stature of the product.

There are many other improvements that could be considered but they will have to wait for another time - I dont want to push my luck - eh!



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Bloodeath 6 6 6
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Posted: 25th Nov 2006 21:29
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Quote: "
1) In the preferences/effects add:
- fog depth setting (0= no fog up to 100% = cannot see my hand!)
- fog start colour
2) Add a new Fog Zone object, when the player steps into it one or both of the following can be modified:
- Adjust the depth based on the setting in the zone
- Change the fog to a different colour (using a nice blend effect)
"


i like that idea, but if your going to make a fog zone object, then make a cancel fog zone object also, so like, you walk across that, it kills the fog so you can go inside, and vice versa


You'll Know When You See It.

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muggins majik
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Posted: 26th Nov 2006 00:36
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I have the 3d Gamemaker and the fog effect really seems to speed up the levels. I am surprised that fog hasn't worked so well in F.P.S.C. as they both decend from Dark Basic!
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Airslide
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Posted: 26th Nov 2006 00:51
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Quote: "I will also tell Lee to fix the black objects with fog issue."


In that case, tell him to make a new DBP update - it seems to be an issue with DBP itself. Or at least it was with my water in my DBP Nvidia entry...

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LeeBamber
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Posted: 28th Nov 2006 02:59
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Well guys, I was just thinking of adding the FPI actions and letting you guys come up with some entities for finer fog control, but if you want me to create some FOG entities as well, vote here. I think my time is best spent chasing bugs, and adding core functionalities, rather than producingh entities and logic, but I can certainly create additional entities if that is what you guys want As a quick update V104 RC3 fixes the 'black character' issue, and as a bonus the fog also works with the fastbone.fx characters too, so nice new working fog by default all round. I am currently poking about with more FOG actions and SETTARGETNAME at the moment, just so you know where I am.

"Small, smart, and running around the legs of dinosaurs to find enough food to survive, bedroom programmers aren't extinct after all "
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FredP
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Posted: 28th Nov 2006 03:08
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Lee,
If you made one or two fog entites or did a quick tutorial on making them that would be cool.
I haven't had much success making fog entities but I can always try again.
You are right though.Your time is probably better spent chasing bugs and adding functionality.
Maybe some of our forum members will make some fog entities for you.
Thanks again for all of your hard work.

http://www.wembley1967.com
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tschwarz
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Posted: 28th Nov 2006 03:25
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My Vote: in order of priority

1. Fix known reported proven bugs.
2. Add ability to remove items from the editor library.
3. Add Core Functionality (including script commands).
4. Create some FOG entities.
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LeeBamber
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Posted: 28th Nov 2006 03:29
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Current suggested list of FOG ACTIONS:

Already in V1:

FOG - already in V1 (zero is off, value is near-range)
FOGRED - already in V1
FOGGREEN - already in V1
FOGBLUE - already in V1

New actions ideas:

FOGNEAR=near-range X (smooth transition built-in)
FOGFAR=far-range X
FOGCLIP=clip anything beyond distance X
FOGSMOOTH=percentage X rate of colour and range transition
FOGLIGHTS=turns all dynamic lights into FOG emitters (experimental idea)

These are the actions I see suggested so far? Any more before I get stuck into making them a reality?

"Small, smart, and running around the legs of dinosaurs to find enough food to survive, bedroom programmers aren't extinct after all "
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filya
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Posted: 28th Nov 2006 04:11
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wow! this sounds fantastic Lee I don't think we would require much more than that!
Just the 'fogclip' itself is pretty good

-- game dev is fun...but taking up too much time --
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BULLSHOCK 2
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Posted: 28th Nov 2006 04:20
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@ lee,

i would like to see something like FOGGLOW, if at all possible.

it would change the amount visibility of the fog, for example, some may want bright white fog, others may want murky blue fog, thats dark. do you see what im getting at?


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FredP
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FOGLIGHTS would be cool.

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filya
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Posted: 28th Nov 2006 05:09
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Quote: "FOGLIGHTS would be cool."


I still don't quite understand the use for it. I mean either you have fog or you don't. I have never seen fog in such a small area (light a light zone)

And if you mean something like fog in a valley, or like in a cold storage room, a fogzone would make be a better idea than a foglight.

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FredP
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Posted: 28th Nov 2006 05:46
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Making dynamic lights give off fog is like blood coming out of the walls...it's just cool.

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BULLSHOCK 2
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Posted: 28th Nov 2006 05:57
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@lee

i just re-read your post.

i dont think its such a good idea to turn dynamic lights into fog, sometimes we may need both in one scene.

perhaps you should add fog emitters, aand fog zones as separat entitys, so that its possible to have a misty, steam like fog feeling, emitting from one area, but its also possible to make fog visble everywhere in a zone (such as a freezer).

different circumstances call for different types of fog...


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Bloodeath 6 6 6
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I agree with fred, foglights, thats a good idea, like a light that you can edit the transparency of fog, the area of fog, the color of the fog, so on and so forth

You'll Know When You See It.

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Benjamin A
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Quote: "FOGNEAR=near-range X (smooth transition built-in)
FOGFAR=far-range X
FOGCLIP=clip anything beyond distance X
FOGSMOOTH=percentage X rate of colour and range transition
FOGLIGHTS=turns all dynamic lights into FOG emitters (experimental idea)"


Sounds good to me!

Quote: "Lee,
If you made one or two fog entites or did a quick tutorial on making them that would be cool."


I agree with FredP, just some examples and hints so we know how to do it ourselves.

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