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FPSC Classic Models and Media / Transparent Wormholes

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Zilla
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Posted: 5th Dec 2006 17:12 Edited at: 5th Dec 2006 17:14
I searched the forums and found some threads about transparency, but couldn't find an answer to my problem. If I overlooked one, please tell me the link.

I was experimenting with light-effects, similar to those in Butterfinger's Firefly game or to those of dimoxinil (using the alpha channel of a texture to simulate volumetric lights.



The picture is from this thread http://forum.thegamecreators.com/?m=forum_view&b=25&t=74719&p=4 and was made by alia (forum user dimoxinil)

Everthing looks good in the 3D-Programm:



Unfortunately, in FPSC the Alpha-channel of my texture produces some weird results in FPSC. It also makes part of other textures of my low-poly model transparent. Here are two in-game screenies:





What am I doing wrong?
WuTang
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Posted: 5th Dec 2006 18:38
Wow nice .. Im no expert on the subject but i see bits of transparency on the pumpkin thats because the colors that were supposed to be there are (True Black) and fpsc dosnt show that colour up

WuTang

Airslide
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Posted: 6th Dec 2006 00:38
No, I don't think those parts of the texture were black, but I sometimes have this problem with characters. It's weird, it hides certain polies, not sure why...

filya
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Posted: 6th Dec 2006 03:05
this usually happens to me only when I use an entity with an alpha mapped texture.
Then it kind of hides things that are behind it too

I too would appreciate the answer.

-- game dev is fun...but taking up too much time --
Zilla
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Posted: 6th Dec 2006 09:59
Maybe this screenie of the texture and the uv-map helps.

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Zilla
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Posted: 7th Dec 2006 23:24
I found some threads that say that you should save your textures in png-format or even directly in dds to avoid artefacts.

but this didn't help either.
rolfy
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Posted: 7th Dec 2006 23:29
Could you show a pic of your alpha channel zilla.
Zilla
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Posted: 8th Dec 2006 14:56
hi, rolfy

this is the texture



and this is the alpha-channel of the dds-file



I also attached the original dds-file.
If you are interested, you can download it and have a look at it.

Thank you very much.

I could also upload the whole fpsc-ready model, if you want to.

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Screwed Over
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Posted: 8th Dec 2006 15:03
align the polys (U~A) you may also need to reverse them afterwards (U~R), that caused loads of problems for me.

_
SO

rolfy
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Posted: 8th Dec 2006 20:00 Edited at: 8th Dec 2006 20:23
Looked a lttle more closely at your texture zilla and the only problem area I could see was a little overlapping of the alpha channel in the areas below.Turn on all your channels in photoshop and you will see what I mean.

Check your uvw mapping to ensure any non transparent areas of your mesh aren't accidentally sitting on these.
If not then it may be as Screwed over is saying a couple of your poly's normals are needing flipped,if none of this is any help to you then it may be that fpsc isn't going to play ball.
It may also be a shader is required or you may have to try different file formats to get the result you want,if you want you could e-mail me the model and I will take a look at it,seems a pity to let this one go as you have a real good looking idea there.

I have posted a 'cleaned up' version of your texture,try this and see how it looks.

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Locrian
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Posted: 9th Dec 2006 00:56
Zilla,
Can you post a 420x420 image of your UV map man(so its same as Rolfy's). IF we could overlay those we could help ya a lil. I'm not thinking its Screwed Overs's idea because your render seems fine. Could be possible though maybe you fliped some prior to xport?

Good luck anyways.
Zilla
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Posted: 9th Dec 2006 16:44 Edited at: 9th Dec 2006 16:45
@Locrian

Here is the uv-map over the texture-map.



I don't think that any uv-polygons are overlapping the alpha-map.

Quote: "Can you post a 420x420 image of your UV map man(so its same as Rolfy's). IF we could overlay those we could help ya a lil."


4 posts above I have attached the dds-file. You can download it and have a look directly at the original file.
Zilla
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Posted: 9th Dec 2006 16:50 Edited at: 9th Dec 2006 16:50
@rolfy

Quote: "It may also be a shader is required"

This might be a cool idea!

Quote: "I have posted a 'cleaned up' version of your texture,try this and see how it looks."

Wow! I will try your file subito.

Quote: "if you want you could e-mail me the model and I will take a look at it"

What an offer! I emailed them! Thank you very much!
Zilla
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Posted: 9th Dec 2006 17:13
@rolfy

Quote: "I have posted a 'cleaned up' version of your texture,try this and see how it looks."




Unfortunately, these transparency-artefacts are still present with your cleaned-up file.

Anyway: thank you!
Locrian
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Posted: 9th Dec 2006 17:21
OK, this is all very strange. I suggest reverse engineering the head. Use a checker board texture on the model and look at that in game. See if its a texture or a mesh problem. This should make things quite obvious. Then make a copy of your texture that has no alpha on it(the eye beams solid). Keep doing things in this manner till you pin down the exact thing thats going wrong with it in FPSC. I realize this is alot of work but if it makes you feel better S4 and myself had a similar situation with the R.A.M.M(that police robot) for our game though it was the whole model that wasnt showing up. Only thing I can suggest is alot of trial and error and you WILL pin this down.

Good luck
Loc
rolfy
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Posted: 9th Dec 2006 23:30 Edited at: 9th Dec 2006 23:33
Zilla, I have looked at the model,the texture and the map and I cant see anything wrong with any of these.
For some reason some faces are being removed when viewed through the transparent areas of your model.
I have tried every format for dds and tga,but nothing solves this.
The problem appears to be the transparent ares are a part of the complete model.
If you place these as separate meshes then it works fine.Especially with illuminationent.fx.



I know this doesn't help as you want these as characters.
It may take someone more engine savvy to sort this out for you.
Zilla
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Posted: 10th Dec 2006 22:23
@rolfy

cool! you are the best and i still have so much to learn.

your information helps me a lot and i can continue to experiment on a new level though i don't know if a character with these transparent parts is possible.

i will search the forums because i know that someone created a model of a girl with transparent hair.

is it possible that you upload your version of the pumpkin?

@Locrian

Thank you for your clever an detailed workflow. I will stick to it!
Zilla
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Posted: 10th Dec 2006 22:30
i found a thread of a character with transparency:

bond1 created a nurse with transparent hair:
http://forum.thegamecreators.com/?m=forum_view&t=87036&b=24
rolfy
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Posted: 11th Dec 2006 00:34
No problem zilla,yeah I had seen the bond model and I think there may be other re-textures available on the forum using transparency for characters.It may be just the scale of transparency on your model,or it may be something in the fpe trans settings.I haven't looked closely at this as yet and had assumed it was just two settings 0,1 for on/off,could be there are more maybe 0-6 or something for different kinds of transparency,could be something to look into.
I will e-mail you the model I used in image above ,it's in two parts though and is tricky to place correctly,good luck with this and if you have any success let us all know,cheers.
Zilla
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Posted: 13th Dec 2006 21:02
rolfy emailed me a cool information:

Quote: "try setting your transparency in the A.I. to
2,it does make a bit of a difference"


i tried it and now the artefacts are only in the polygons of the
transparent parts and no more in the model!



on the right pumpkin: no more wormholes in the model!

now i can go one step further and try to get rid of the holes in the transparent parts...
filya
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Posted: 14th Dec 2006 04:03
I thought it was either transparent = 1 (ON) or = 0 (OFF)

Good to see =2 solve your problem

So can someone help me with what the different values mean?

thanks

-- game dev is fun...but taking up too much time --
Bloodeath 6 6 6
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Posted: 14th Dec 2006 04:59
In most fpis that ive seen transparency is set to 4 actually, thats what i use to make transparent parts in textures

You'll Know When You See It.

Death has no end
rolfy
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Posted: 14th Dec 2006 05:20
I tried all settings 0-6, none of them cured this particular problem completely.
filya
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Posted: 14th Dec 2006 06:00
rolfy, can you help me with what the various (0-6) settings actually do?

Thanks a lot

-- game dev is fun...but taking up too much time --
rolfy
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Posted: 14th Dec 2006 07:46 Edited at: 14th Dec 2006 07:55
I dont have any definite info on this one filya,theres not much in the manual about it.
Some decals like the floor overlays use a setting of 4,some entities work with a setting of 0,the characters and guns using transparency seem to use 1 or 2,I am actually guessing at the total being 6,I think it may only be 4.
What the actual numbers result in I couldn't say, maybe something to do with point of view or some unused function meant to be implemented but was never fully integrated.
Could even be something to do with shadow casting from tranparency,you can only try each setting with entities using trans on a pure trial and error basis,and use what works for you.
Could be that maybe someone on these forums knows the answer to this one,but I cant figure it.
filya
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Posted: 14th Dec 2006 19:25
Thanks rolfy. This does sound interesting.
Maybe this is the reason transparency has been always a problem in FPSC.
People are unable to make simple things like a glass (semi-transparent) window, let alone work on complicated things like the light-rays etc.
I would have so much liked to work on something like Butter's window light-rays, but its just trial and error...and that part bugs me.

Thanks again.

-- game dev is fun...but taking up too much time --
bond1
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Posted: 15th Dec 2006 09:54 Edited at: 15th Dec 2006 10:38
I know what the problem is, it's the mesh, not the texture. For the lightbeams, it looks like edges were simply extruded from the eye and mouth holes, resulting in kind of a mess.


So what you have is multiple, overlapping transparent polys. A lot of game engines have a problem determining the "draw order" in this scenario, it isn't a FPSC unique problem. The shockwave 3d engine suffers the same problem. If you look at the "wormholes" in your model, they occur in the places where the lightbeams fold back over each other.


That is why volumetric shafts of light in games are usually contructed of a single plane, or perhaps a cone. If you use a cone, you can move all the way around it without having any overlapping forward-facing polys. Your polys in the pumpkin are like paper folding back over itself. My searchlight from Model Pack 2 uses a cone to simulate volumetric lighting.

If I were you I would replace the light shafts with single planes to simulate the light shafts, it'll look cleaner and you shouldn't have any draw order problems from most angles. You might get away with using cones, but I would think that planes would do the job nicely.

----------------------------------------
"Your mom goes to college."
My FPSC stuff at http://www.hyrumark.com
rolfy
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Posted: 15th Dec 2006 10:23
Many thanks for the info bond1,definitely a case of barking up the wrong tree here,still it made us look a lot closer at the way things work in fpsc.Thanks again.
Zilla
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Posted: 15th Dec 2006 13:52
@bond1

thank you very much for your help! it's always good to know, that there are fpsc-users around that have such a great knowledge of this engine and are willing to share it with others!

peace on earth and merry christmas!
(is this appropriate in a weapon loaded fps-forum?) zilla
bond1
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Posted: 15th Dec 2006 14:44
Hey no problem, and again, your texture and alpha channel is perfectly fine.

And merry xmas to you too!

----------------------------------------
"Your mom goes to college."
My FPSC stuff at http://www.hyrumark.com
Zilla
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Posted: 18th Dec 2006 21:34 Edited at: 18th Dec 2006 21:36
@bond1

Quote: "That is why volumetric shafts of light in games are usually contructed of a single plane, or perhaps a cone"


I have to ask one more question. I clearly understand, that one plane cannot produce overlapping polygons. But a cone? Of course a cone only has one plane which is the cylinder barrel (is this the correct mathematical term in english?) but in a 3D program, it is composed of several planes that can overlap depending on the point of view. I don't understand it... I do not have your model pack 2, but could you show me a picture (wireframe) of the cone of your searchlight?

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