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3 Dimensional Chat / "Maya" Or "3D studio max"

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Dimension
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Posted: 12th Dec 2006 02:37 Edited at: 12th Dec 2006 02:39
Which is better maya or 3d studio max. I'm planning on buying maya because it looks like a perty cool program. But am wondering what the problems are in exporting to darkbasic.

wickedly kick it
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Posted: 12th Dec 2006 02:40
i suggest buying 3ds max, better interface, and i think it is easier,

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The crazy
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Posted: 12th Dec 2006 03:01
Quote: "i suggest buying 3ds max, better interface, and i think it is easier,"


I say the exact opposite. It's just a matter of opinion Both have free trials. Download both and try them. It's quite a big investment either way.

Dimension
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Posted: 12th Dec 2006 07:12
I found that maya is easier for modeling, I'm just not sure about exporting from maya to darkbasic.

Raven
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Posted: 12th Dec 2006 07:33
Same company different products, either way you'll be dropping the better half of $3,000 on a new version of the software.

Although personally I'd recommend Maya, you can you honestly ignore the fact that Softimage|XSI is used just as much in professional development studios nowadays and comes on to the market at a nice $500?

Intel Core 2 Duo E6400, 512MB DDR2 667MHz, ATi Radeon X1900 XT 256MB PCI-E, Windows Vista Business / XP Professional SP2
indi
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Posted: 12th Dec 2006 07:51
Im leaning towards maya, but both packages seem to be quite capable.
not having enough experience with both to suggest which one would be better, I couldnt say.

Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 12th Dec 2006 17:43
Buy both and you can't go wrong there, so what if your bank gets on your back, its not as if there gonna repossess your house or anything .

Well, I'd try out the demos, that's the best way to decide, that's how I chose between XSI and Lightwave, me, I probably wouldn't go near the two, I think they're overpriced, hence I'm gonna pick up a copy of Softimage|XSI 6 when it comes out, which comes with some of the best animation tools around, plus you gotta love it for dishing out works such as happy feet

"Cut down the gods if they stand in your way" - Yamamoto Tsunetomo
TogaMario
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Posted: 12th Dec 2006 18:53
I use Maya and haven't been disappointed in it yet. Not to say 3Dsmax isn't capable, I just find that Maya is easier at the top, and deeper at the bottom.

P.S. This is what the alphabet would look like if Q and R were eliminated.
RUCCUS
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Posted: 12th Dec 2006 21:46
Speaking of SoftImage XSI, just thought Id add in that from what I understand thats now the most commonly used modelling app in game dev. I was watching the "behind the scenes" developement process of starwars battlefront 2 and they said they used soft image, so I did some research on it a few months ago and found there to be tonnes of games made from it.

Dimension
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Posted: 12th Dec 2006 22:22
Ya, I think I like maya. I spent about less than a hour and created a high resolution pen and with max i think it would take longer.

Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 12th Dec 2006 22:54
Quote: "Speaking of SoftImage XSI, just thought Id add in that from what I understand thats now the most commonly used modelling app in game dev. I was watching the "behind the scenes" developement process of starwars battlefront 2 and they said they used soft image, so I did some research on it a few months ago and found there to be tonnes of games made from it."


No wonder, it's cheap, its reliable, it comes packed with features perfect for game making, such as baking, normal map making, transferring high poly data onto normals following the low poly version, GATOR and MOTOR, which transfer's UVMap, Texture and animation data (or one of each, depending how you set it) meaning one rig is a rig for them all. Also with the ability to run a game engine within Softimage and its shader capabilities and awesome animation tools, such as those from the face tools which is an external program great for facial animation, plus with its good quality exporters, I can see why it is becoming the number 1 choice when Max is more expensive and now is more inferior for the job in game making from what I've seen within the features and workflow.

"Cut down the gods if they stand in your way" - Yamamoto Tsunetomo
wickedly kick it
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Posted: 12th Dec 2006 23:06 Edited at: 12th Dec 2006 23:10
I stand corrected

BTW i tried maya 7 wonder what the new one is up to)(getting free trial)

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The crazy
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Posted: 12th Dec 2006 23:53
Quote: "I stand corrected"


No you don't, they're both very good programs, I suppose it's just what you get used to. ie. I can't do hardly anything in max because I'm so used to maya.

Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 13th Dec 2006 00:57
Yes, the 'best' program, is an opinion, not fact, because the best program for you is the program that fulfils your needs and requirements the most.

"Cut down the gods if they stand in your way" - Yamamoto Tsunetomo
Dimension
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Posted: 14th Dec 2006 09:45
"The crazy" I worked with max for quiet a while and then jumped to maya and tried that program just now and it works a lot faster. Here are some of my renderings.

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indi
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Posted: 14th Dec 2006 10:54
there is a point however when opinion vs tool falls apart.
if the tool cant animate then clearly its not an opinion etc.etc.

The crazy
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Posted: 14th Dec 2006 15:50
@Dimension: No argument here

Redmotion
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Posted: 21st Dec 2006 20:57
Pretty much everyone I know who's switched from Maya or Max to Softimage XSI loathes the idea of going back.

You can get all the tools you need for game making for a fifth of the cost of Maya and a tenth of the cost of Max.

If you're not going to make money or get employment as a result of buying Maya or Max you'd be throwing good money away.

transient
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Posted: 22nd Dec 2006 00:58 Edited at: 22nd Dec 2006 00:58
It should be noted that you never really own XSI foundation in the same way you own other software, it's a license which doesn't include an upgrade option (you have to buy the software at full price if you want to use the latest version).

Despite the hype around XSI, and I'm sure it's somewhat justified, Max and Maya are used far more in industry and imo would be better bets for most people who have these ambitions.

If you purely want to be a professional animator then I think you could make an argument for learning XSI over Autodesk's titans.

However, I do agree that for hobbyists Foundation's overall price/performance is attractive, despite that dodgy license thing.

Just to add some spice to the mix, Autodesk is apparently being threatened with expulsion from the Nasdaq, for reasons that I don't really understand, but it's definitely worth noting....

Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 22nd Dec 2006 23:09
Quote: "Max and Maya are used far more in industry"


Less so in the game industry, for that, XSI is their competition, I mean, although really you can work them all together, Softimage|XSI has Maya/Max pipelines and have released their animation tools 'Softimage|CAT' for 3DSMax as plugin.

As for the whole licence, normally it would be dodgy, but it is fair, you're buying top industry tools at indie price, they're going to need to boost their profit somewhere, I'm sure the indie market would prefer it, as it would be able to acquire $500/£300 easier each time than $2000 + $300 upgrades. Although, up and coming to the release of XSI 6, any previous XSI foundation user can upgrade to foundation 6 for less than the full price, I don't know about the other two packages.

As for Max, well its community is mostly elitist (well depends where you go) and I've seen its interface, I think its ugly in terms for a modeller similar to myself, hence I'll never go near it, but then it might be because I'm currently a Cinema 4D user and that happens from speaking to other C4D users.

"Cut down the gods if they stand in your way" - Yamamoto Tsunetomo
transient
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Posted: 23rd Dec 2006 05:20 Edited at: 23rd Dec 2006 05:21
XSI is used practically nowhere in the game industry compared to Max. I think I've seen hype of one or two companies preferring XSI, but I think it's probably more a case of adding it to their pipeline.

Max is still the primary art tool in the games industry, by far. It is also the most pirated 3d app out there, which in my opinion helps keep it at the top. I'm not a huge max fan, but the reality is it's number one for games with daylight separating it from the rest.

I agree with the interface and workflow issues. It's one reason I stopped using Max after ver 4.0, along with an allergy to warez (I couldn't obtain student versions after v4). There are mumblings that Max is becoming a victim of it's feature list in some ways, however the diehards definitely don't seem to worry about this much.

I'm not too sure where the elitist argument comes from, except perhaps that the best 3d game artists I know of use Max, bar one (Admir from Croteam).

indi
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Posted: 23rd Dec 2006 08:24
I love maya the more i use it, its like learning photoshop again with all its features.
I just found a mesh anime to bones mel script, how cool is that!!

Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 23rd Dec 2006 12:30
But XSI is growing, it is now becoming a challenging competitor and I can see why, but yes at the moment it is pretty much a standard tool at the moment, I've read articles from employers advertising for jobs, most have said 3DSMax or Maya, quite a few say XSI, some have said C4D or LW and one, said Blender (That would be Jagex) One was a volunteer piece that I started, but found I didn't have time to continue, it was something for the Dawn of War games, they required 3DS Max as the tool that exports and animates, but didn't care what apps the modeller/UVMapper/Texturers used as long as they would load in Max.

But I can see XSI becoming a blow to Max as it already is beginning to.

"Cut down the gods if they stand in your way" - Yamamoto Tsunetomo
indi
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Posted: 23rd Dec 2006 13:57
apparently C4d has no feature-set like maya or max and XSI have less features then maya and max but with a faster workflow.

some people dig the workflow but forgo a few extra options.
I just read Final Fantasy cut scenes are in maya, thats interesting to know, I was always amazed at the hair animations with those scenes.

Most forums i just looked around have mixed results.
Most smarter users suggest downloading both and trying them.
Most professionals are suggesting maya or max still.
Someone said max has the most plugins, followed by maya and then the rest.
Someone also suggested the animation workflow in XSI is good.

Apparently Maya is Movie Industry Standard if you want work within the industry.

Can you script XSI? like with mel scripting

from the autodesk site it appears you can tweak your maya to your hearts content.

The Maya API/SDK
This key unlocks the power of the Maya software architecture for programmers and technical directors.

Direct Access to Maya Software Functionality

Maya plug-ins and standalone applications that run from the Maya command line can be written using C++.
Maya scene hierarchy can be traversed with iterators.
Maya plug-ins can be registered to receive a comprehensive range of Maya messages.
Maya manipulators and locators can be created.
New types of Maya objects can be developed – including file translators, hardware shaders, surface shapes and MEL commands.
Existing Maya objects, such as geometry, lights, shaders, transforms, scene hierarchy, and dependency graph nodes, can be queried and modified.
MEL scripts can be executed from C++.


Maya works very well with photoshop native formats.

from the autodesk site.

Adobe Photoshop Integration

Create shading networks with connections to layers sets in a PSD file; include procedural or 3D painted textures as starting points, and UV layouts for reference.
Render layers can now be rendered to layered PSD files.
Any PSD file can be used as a texture map and rendered directly in the Maya software and hardware renderers and in mental ray for Maya.
PSD files containing layer sets can be converted into a layered texture within Maya.
A multi layered PSD file can be automatically connected to multiple material attributes.



Mayas file format works with my video editing format as if they are native to each other.
that in itself is awesome. I can have complex 3d with HD video. Nuff Said really about that.
FCP / MAYA killer compositing.

most of them can use mental ray which can produce breathtaking results.

Interestingly movies made with maya are

'The Mummy'
'The Mummy Returns'
'George of the Jungle'
'The Fifth Element'
'Final Fantasy'
'The Hollow Man'
'The X-Man'
'Anaconda'
'Stuart Little'
'Shrek'
'Sindbad'
'Pandavas'
'Starship Trooper'
'Lake Placid'
'The Phantom Menace'
'Spiderman'
'Harry Potter'
'Jurassic Park 3'
'Lord of the Rings'
' Ice Age' and more.

I can also spit out my maya content directly to swf and director.

and for something totally silly with google fight, Maya kicks XSI out the door by a factor of ten, but its early days for XSI.

http://www.googlefight.com/index.php?lang=en_GB&word1=maya&word2=xsi


I think the smartest comment i read was that they all have downfalls and features digressing from each other.

The crazy
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Posted: 23rd Dec 2006 17:41
Quote: "Interestingly movies made with maya are"


Don't forget Star Wars. Though I'm sure they don't use only maya, I've seen them using it in the special features section on the dvd.

transient
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Posted: 24th Dec 2006 00:42
The main reason that Max and Maya have such a stranglehold in their respective industries, is that they got in first. Both programs have also managed to keep their programs likable to their core users.

Most animators who use XSI swear by it, but it's really not merely a case of who's best, but whether it's worth the risk of changing direction from a proven tool to an unproven one.

XSI is definitely making strides in feature film work, and could potentially supplant Maya one day as number one, especially if some people are turned off it's new owners. But then so could Houdini which is considered by some the most powerful off-the-shelf 3d tool. However, right now, Maya is number one, and I think will be for some time.

Max benefited greatly from ID and Valve making their importers/exporters purely for Max in the early days. It was easy to get hot versions of Max, and a whole generation of modders ended up using it for games work, many of whom are now the hottest game makers out there. Again, I think the indi scene has changed this dominance a bit, but even on the FPSC board the most used tool is still Max (does everybody own it? I doubt it).

I agree with Seppuku that things are changing, and in ten years the scene may be different (Blender is a becoming a huge success story) but right now that's where we stand imho.


indi
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Posted: 24th Dec 2006 06:05
Quote: "The main reason that Max and Maya have such a stranglehold in their respective industries, is that they got in first"


autodesk with max have been around the longest in the pro field, my friend works for channel seven in sydney, his brother worked for autodesk when it was australian.

they dont keep the title because they were first, they keep it because they are professional serious products.

transient
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Posted: 25th Dec 2006 01:21
Autodesk hasn't been around the longest by a fair margin. It was originally known for it's cad products before it got into 3d anyway. However it pulled a masterstroke in the games industry, hence it's current status imo.

In any case I said this
Quote: "Both programs have also managed to keep their programs likable to their core users."
. Max is a professional product, no doubt, one of many, for whatever that's worth. It's also bloated and complicated, so I guess it's pretty much whatever you're poison is. I used it for years, including games, and was fairly proficient with it.

One reason it's so popular in Australia is that it got in first with the training crowd, and there is a wad of talent here that knows how to use it. I did some training at Mad Academy once. I really wanted to learn Softimage, but no one was offerring classes in it at that stage.

I'm not an Autodesk hater, but there are many other worhty 3d programs out there. If I was going to be tempted by one of the bad boy apps again, I would probably go for Houdini. That program's always intrigued me.

Please don't drop names, I "know people" as well. It means very little.

indi
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Posted: 25th Dec 2006 01:53
Quote: "Autodesk hasn't been around the longest by a fair margin"

at least 15 years mate, which is quite a spell in my books.

Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 27th Dec 2006 19:12 Edited at: 27th Dec 2006 19:19
Well Max, Maya and XSI have their strengths and weaknesses, one is stronger than the other in areas, but are all awesome tools, one strength for XSI and a weakness on the other two is value for money, being up there with those two packages at a low price is very positive, especially with its preferred animation tools, personally I recommend it for an indie. But there are those that swear by Max and those that swear by Maya and employees love them, and are beginning to love XSI more and more. Max and Maya are essentially for those willing to pay their prices. But I think although you can get the money, you can still find yourself better off with XSI and save that money, but it all depends on what functions attract you the most.

Quote: "I'm not an Autodesk hater, but there are many other worhty 3d programs out there. If I was going to be tempted by one of the bad boy apps again, I would probably go for Houdini. That program's always intrigued me."


Not now that Autodesk bought the rights for Maya

As for Houdini, it has done some great work, but the price of it is quite insane, so much so, there aren't many employees or pro's that require the use of it, I think its mostly studios that purchase it, such as Sony Entertainment, I found it to look quite interesting, as all of the training material is included with the program, but when I downloaded the demo, I found it quite difficult the UI was odd, mind you I didn't give it a good run, as I'm never going to buy the bugger One of the things that does look really cool with Houdini is fluids, but there's a program out there called Real Flow, which is dedicated to fluids, I've the the Special Edition version, which was free with a limitation of 50,000 particles, I've played with it a little and its pretty good.

"Cut down the gods if they stand in your way" - Yamamoto Tsunetomo
Redmotion
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Posted: 27th Dec 2006 20:31
The free version of Softimage XSI now seems to have a direct x importer and exporter addon - it seems to have been added very recently. So making stuff for DBPro in a pro package could be free now!

http://www.softimage.com/downloads/default.aspx?downloadid=62

Scripting in XSI is done in Python, VBscript (pretty similar to visual basic and dark basic) and Java script (eg: REAL languages - Maya and Max still have to drop their native scripting and pick up the well known .) Fast Plugins in XSI can be coded pretty easily in C# and C++. It's a coders dream.

Houdini is used in the movies for it's simulation tools. Check out the sidefx website and see the state of art fluid and smoke effects (and see how far realtime physical simulation still has to go.) I think it is the most expensive 3d package of the lot.

Softimage 3d was the package that they made the dinosaurs with in Jurassic Park, but its price made it overlooked at the time.

indi
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Posted: 28th Dec 2006 08:02
ILM uses SI3D / XSI, renderman and MAYA.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jurassic_Park_(film)#Production

maya was used to put it together for J3, and Im guessing renderman prior to that.
http://usa.autodesk.com/adsk/servlet/item?siteID=123112&id=6869949&linkID=7770998

compositing was probably in house software.

indi
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Posted: 28th Dec 2006 08:09
I just found about happy feet as well.
made in sydney australia by animal logic.

Quote: "
Former Brisbane boy and 3D animator Andrew Silke

A lot of the film was made in Maya with custom tools and rendered with Renderman. Animation, rigging and environment modelling was done in XSI. Photoshop for textures art ect, Digital Fusion for compositing. I think Zbrush was in there somewhere. Probably a lot of other programs too."


Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 28th Dec 2006 12:04
Quote: " The free version of Softimage XSI now seems to have a direct x importer and exporter addon - it seems to have been added very recently. So making stuff for DBPro in a pro package could be free now!"


Awesomeness! (Woah Awesomeness is a word according to Firefox dictionary, how odd) This is good, because I am left short of an animator and I have a project for the nvida compo.

Indi, I've read that article, I see you've got some local 3D dudes, job opportunities maybe?

"Cut down the gods if they stand in your way" - Yamamoto Tsunetomo
indi
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Posted: 28th Dec 2006 12:20
there is a lot of game / SPFX companies in QLD /NSW.
There are 17 game companies alone in fortitude valey, about 10 minutes from here.
When I get my skills up in game dev ill go for modeling, texturing work.

Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 28th Dec 2006 12:44
Fair play, all I have around here is Maxon UK as far as I know, although I did ask if they needed any cleaners just to see if my first payment would be a copy of Cinema 4D or Bodypaint, but they didn't need any

"Cut down the gods if they stand in your way" - Yamamoto Tsunetomo
Oddmind
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Posted: 28th Dec 2006 18:27 Edited at: 28th Dec 2006 18:28
buy animita8tr, itz th besst and duz gud animi8tshinz.

Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 28th Dec 2006 18:40
Quote: "buy animita8tr, itz th besst and duz gud animi8tshinz. "


Anim8or was my 1st 3D app, no way I'm going back there Although it was a good app for what it was.

"Cut down the gods if they stand in your way" - Yamamoto Tsunetomo
Dimension
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Posted: 29th Dec 2006 09:21
Ya, apparently there 30 day trial of XSI didn't work for me but i just downloaded XSI 6 demo and is working great i'm going to check this program out to see if it is any good. As for anybody who is doing the same I recomend going to www.3dbuzz.com and downloading some VTM's(Video Training Modules).

Redmotion
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Posted: 29th Dec 2006 22:31
Actually, I've just discovered that the direct x exporter plugin for the free version of XSI doesn't export animation currently. I haven't been able to check this though... but it was stated by a Softimage employee.

Places for good free XSI tutorials:

www.3dtutorial.com (the best ones for the money + some free animation ones)
http://www.edharriss.com/tutorials/tutorials_comp_xsi.html
www.3dquakers.com
http://halflife2.filefront.com/files/search/?search_category=all&fields_name=1&fields_filename=1&keyword=colt+1911&game=32#results - good gun modelling tutorial - gave me a lot of help
http://www.digitaltutors.com/digital_tutors/tutorials.php?cat=xsi - these people did the XSI 6 official videos
http://www.3dmd.net/Xsi_renderingTutorials.html

Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 30th Dec 2006 01:10
Cheers, I'll stick with plan A for animation in my project, and that's do it in blender, I've already looked at edharriss, they're all good tutorials.

"Cut down the gods if they stand in your way" - Yamamoto Tsunetomo

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