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3 Dimensional Chat / Caligari gameSpace

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Code Dragon
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Posted: 12th Dec 2006 23:59 Edited at: 15th Jul 2007 01:32
I've decided it's time to start moving up to 3d, so I'm going to buy Caligari gameSpace while I can save 30%, but I have some questions in the meantime.

1. I have the trial version of 1.1, and there's a horrible clipping effect on the backdrop. Is this in the full verison of 1.6 too?

2. I know gameSpace is good for creating animated characters and objects, but is it really that good for creating game worlds?

3. If it is good for creating game worlds, can it export as .bsp for fast rendering

4. For game worlds (which get loaded as a single .bsp or .x), how do you people code collision routines that can tell the difference between floors, ceilings, walls, and stairs?

5. Is it really worth the money for an experienced modler who has memorized what all the icons do? (I'm very new to modeling but I'm willing to practice lots ) I figured it would be better to buy and learn one program for $170 than learn three free/cheaper programs that come to only $80.

6. How do you work the UV unwrapper? Does it create a 2d image that you have to draw on top of in a paint program or can you paint directly on the UV image in gameSpace?

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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 13th Dec 2006 01:10
I have never used GameSpace, but used to use TrueSpace 5.2 instead, which is the same but with more features. I didn't think much of it, stability was an issue for me, but it could do what is said it could do and with ease, although the interface is odd and icon based. There are other applications out there that I would try first, I bought TrueSpace because I thought it was the bee's knees for that sort of price, then I gave it to a friend for free with my copy of DBC, but after getting C4D 6 and knowing more about the 3D world I discovered the strengths and weaknesses of programs and how they work for me, looking around at demos will help you with that insight.

I am an experience modeller, memorising isn't too bad, but as long as the icons are obvious, I found with Cinema 4D 6 is, I could access all the tools from the menu, all of the tools from the icons, and customise the interface, also customise for text, icons or both, you will find there are programs that are like that.

If you don't like icons, then Lightwave or Softimage|XSI are my strongest recommendations, they are anyway. but I think they ate out of the beginner's price range, even if they are dirt cheap.

Check out Blender and Milkshape as well, and Wings3D too, they're all good cheap, newbie tools, if you're willing to learn and practice lots, Blender might be for you and its free, the interface takes some getting use to, but it is feature packed with professional tools and will be well worth learning in my opinion. I'd try that before spending your money, its an application that to start with, you need to follow tutorials carefully before jumping in, its like swimming really, start off in a paddling pool, a really shallow pool, the shallow end of a poor, the middle end, the deep end and then the different diving boards.

"Cut down the gods if they stand in your way" - Yamamoto Tsunetomo
Code Dragon
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Posted: 13th Dec 2006 01:42
Money isn't an issue for me right now, I currently have lots of it.

I have Wings 3d and Anim8or, I haven't done much modeling in them yet, and from what I've seen on the forums they don't support a lot of the things I'm going to need later on. Although I can't work half the features in Anim8or yet, like you said it's like swimming. When I master Anim8or and get to the deep end I'm going to need something that actually exports animations. That's mainly why I'm looking to get a big package, I'll ignore all the extra little trinkits that make it so expensive until I'm confident with basic/intermediate modeling.

About the icons, they aren't that obvious but distintive enough tell them apart once you know what they mean. The interface in general is counter intutive but I'm getting used to it. That icon finder is a life saver, if I can find the icon finder icon, that is.

indi
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Posted: 13th Dec 2006 02:08
A great step is to take the milkshape route.
later on the money invested allows for the program to be used as a converter.
unwrap3d is another program well worth investing in that also doubles as an amazing converter.

KeithC
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Posted: 13th Dec 2006 13:49
GameSpace has a few problems with exporting some animations (ie. characters); which is why many people who have GameSpace, also have Milkshape or Fragmotion. There was supposed to be one last mini-course to come out (by Drew Clark) on animation, but because of the unresolved issues with animation in GameSpace, it has yet to hit the front page (you can see that the advanced modeling course (4th Mini-Course)has been up there for quite awhile, under the "Latest News").

GameSpace is easy to use, but once you reach it's limitations you'll find that you need to learn another program. The community over there has less than a handful of regulars coming through sporadically, but Caligari doesn't seem to pay those forums much attention.

If money isn't an issue, I would do some more shopping around first. Download some more demos and try them out for yourself. Lightwave V9 finally has a downloadable demo as well.

If you still want to go with GameSpace, I know that Sadsack (search for him at the GS forums) is selling his copy of GS; he got tired of all the problems with it and moved to Lightwave.

XSI might be just what you're looking for, at a good price and all the right tools for Foundation (although I believe there's no upgrade path from Foundation).

-Keith

Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 13th Dec 2006 18:48
Quote: "XSI might be just what you're looking for, at a good price and all the right tools for Foundation (although I believe there's no upgrade path from Foundation)."


Thats right, but it seems on the release of each new version, like from XSI 5 to 6 which then in the process of doing, anyone who has XSI can upgrade at a cheap price, but because XSI is such a value for money, there isn't much upgrade solutions, but I don't see how that will create much issues as it will be a while before XSI 6 is too far out of date, as people are still enjoying the feature of XSI 4

This is a route I am taking, if you say that money isn't an issue, then I'd go straight for this.

For $500 you get a hell of a lot, check out their website.

http://www,softimage.com

"Cut down the gods if they stand in your way" - Yamamoto Tsunetomo
Code Dragon
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Posted: 13th Dec 2006 22:08 Edited at: 13th Dec 2006 22:13
Is gameSpace really that limiting? It looked like it was the holy grail of game media when I saw it. The gameSpace page on this site says it's completely feature packed, or is it very common to have even more features in a $200 modeling program? I'm mainly a programmer, I don't plan to learn so much about modeling that I have to get some modeler for experts, so gameSpace is the upper limit for me. I just need it to be able to create game items, characters, worlds, and support UV mapping and animation, and I started this thread to get confirmation of this.

I got frustrated that many of the free programs I tried or looked at don't support animation, or can't UV map, or can't export to certain file types and I'd have to use conv3ds every time I updated a model, or don't look right in DBP, or the programmer dumped them and there won't be anymore updates, or are written in an interperted language and you see an annoying blinking box every time you run it, or... you get the idea. I'd still need to get 3d World Studio or something similar to make the game worlds even if I could find a good free modeler for objects and characters. I figured by investing in gameSpace I could solve all the problems for almost forever for a little money.

I'm not that worried about bugs because bugs aren't permenent, they get fixed in bug fixes, even if you do have to wait awhile.

Anyway, since I'm not going to hit those limitations anytime soon, let's get this thread off question 5.

Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 13th Dec 2006 22:18
The problem there with free programs, well Blender is the exception, it has more features and the sticky in 3D chat has the perfect Blender to DBP tutorial, but it is harder than GameSpace.

Personally, I would choose Blender if GameSpace is your limit, but its you and your decisions, I can only offer my opinions, check out Blender to see if it suits you, if it suits you less, then get GameSpace, I did enjoy TrueSpace when I had it, but it wouldn't be my number 1 choice for much.

"Cut down the gods if they stand in your way" - Yamamoto Tsunetomo
dononeton
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Posted: 13th Dec 2006 22:46
I think Gamespace is great! I can make anything I want. Its work flow is easy to learn. I have tried alot of other 3d modeling packages and was diappointed at the UI. Menus, menus and more menus. I tried maya 7ple(more of a demo)it has a great UI and It does have those menus but everthing you will need to use has an icon. You can also make your own icon shelf. I would use this but it cost $2000, I am saving though. GameSpace does have bugs but all programs have bugs. There is promise to have an upgrade as soon as TrueSpace 7.5 is done.Since The core of TrueSpace will be the core to GameSpace. All of the .x models looks great in DBPro. The transfromation animations look good too. The bone system works but it really sucks. It is out dated.TrueSpace 7.5 will have an updated bone system so GameSpace 2.0 will get it too. For a programmer I would recommend GameSpace. For a new 3d artist I would also recommend GameSpace. A 3d artist may out grow GameSpace because you cannot render movies and such, then theres TrueSpace 7 in which you can do all the game stuff along with the movies. Now I am thinking about TrueSpace 7 is about $1500 cheaper than Maya. I may get that, will see how good the animation system in TrueSpace 7.5 will be before I decide. Hope that helps you make up your mind
KeithC
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Posted: 13th Dec 2006 22:50
I believe the last time there was a bug fix for GameSpace was a couple of years ago. There will be no more fixes to the current GameSpace, as they will focus on GameSpace 2 (whenever they decide to get started on that); which will no doubt cost you more to upgrade, as it will be based on the new TrueSpace 7 architecture. I ended up buying an additional UV Mapper (Ultimate Unwrap 3D), as I just couldn't get my head around the GameSpace Mapper (even with the mini-course I bought). It sounds like you're already decided on GameSpace though, so I'll leave you to it.

-Keith

dononeton
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Posted: 13th Dec 2006 22:56
@KeithC

How is LightWave. Does it Have an icon base UI. I really got bogged down by the menus in Blender and XSI
Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 13th Dec 2006 23:00
Lightwave is word based, you could say the interface/workflow is a cross between XSI, Cinema 4D and Modo.

"Cut down the gods if they stand in your way" - Yamamoto Tsunetomo
KeithC
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Posted: 13th Dec 2006 23:05
Lightwave was a bit of a 180, after coming from GameSpace; but I bought a course from Dan Ablan (Lightwave 9 Signature Course), and it is MUCH easier now. If you focus on the areas that concern you first, it's not so overwhelming. The modeling tools are sweet! It's only crashed on me once or twice since I've had it, versus GameSpace crashing once or twice on me every couple of hours (on the same computer).

I'm on the Open Beta for Lightwave 9.2 (though I don't have much time to participate), as it's open for all Lightwave 9 owners. They are really coming out with some sweet stuff for it. Right now, I concentrate mainly on a pipeline between LW to Torque or FPSCreator. I'm pretty happy I went with Lightwave, although I'm still thinking about picking up XSI:Foundation for the animation tools.

How's your fantasy pack/game coming?

-Keith

dononeton
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Posted: 13th Dec 2006 23:13 Edited at: 13th Dec 2006 23:15
My computer broke down It was getting old. So I bought this new one 2 weeks ago AMD athlon dual 3800 64 bit, 1024 ram, nvidia 6150le with 256megs Its sweet. So All of my models are on my old computer. I am planning to get it fixed after new years. And on top of it my paintshop pro 9 will not register on my new computer. It just hangs there at the end so I cant paint any of my new models.I was without a computer for about 2 months so its coming along.

I get side tracked with learning DBPro and now DP so I am jumping back and forth between programming and modleing
Code Dragon
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Posted: 13th Dec 2006 23:15
dononeton, you seem to have done a lot in gameSpace already, so how do you export a 3d scene (a game map or world) as a .x file correctly? I don't know if you have DBP, but I tried to export it DBP gave me a could not load error.

Also, I'm still concerned about how you 3d programmers do collision between walls and floors with .x objects. I know this can be overcome by making a plain as the ground but I want to be able to make planes at different heights within gameSpace. I have the horrible feeling that it's not possible to make the floors within gameSpace and still have the collision not working correctly; I can see the player constantly falling and when they hit the ground the collision decetion bumps them back up again, making a shaking effect, instead of fixing the y coorinate to the current floor.

dononeton
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Posted: 13th Dec 2006 23:27
Well I use sparkys dll to do my collision. I just use simple box collision.You can use sparkys dll to use per poly collision but that will hurt your frame rate so exporting a scene from any modling package I would advoid. I make each modle sepeate and export it out and program its position and set up its collision manually. Something like 3d world studio would let you import as many .x files you need and place them. Then you can export a .dbo with limbs so I think you can go through the limbs and then setup your collision that way
Code Dragon
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Posted: 14th Dec 2006 00:02
Oh, ok! Good idea, I never used Spark's dll but saving each object indiviually is good too. Sounds like to do that I could just copy the object positions and rotations and paste them into the code or a script file and disable types of collision for types of objects. Could be tedious copying them, but I'd only have to do it when I make new parts of the game world.

dononeton
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Posted: 14th Dec 2006 00:23 Edited at: 14th Dec 2006 00:29
Now I am now sure if you can make a complete level and have all the objects in groups to the level and export them out. Not sure if the groups will be there in DBPro, so you can comb through them and apply collsion that way. I have not tried it

Or you can make a level editor that lets you place, rotate ,and scale your objects and set a collsion command for each objects and some how export all of that to a .dba file. That will be alot easier. I have an idea on how to do a level editor but I dont know how to export it to a .dba file
transient
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Posted: 14th Dec 2006 00:53
I've found a solution for Gamespace's crashing issues (it's got to do with duplicate vertices that are created in some modelling operations).

However, it is annoying, and hopefully will be fixed with GS2.


Code Dragon
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Posted: 14th Dec 2006 21:58
I think I'll go ahead and buy gameSpace. I'm sure it will pay for itself once I get good enough to sell my games. I know just about everyone suggested something else, but here's what I ment about "Is it worth it?": I know some people buy expensive software with tons of functions, then get intimidated by all the cryptic looking icons and menus and never use it again. I looked on these forums about gameSpace, and people said it was too hard and confusing, so I was trying to ask how it is once you've practiced with the interface and with modeling, not after you've mastered modeling completely. Besides, I have the feeling the icon system is extreamly efficent once you understand it, so I'll be able to use it much faster than if I had a bunch free modelers to do different stuff.

I'm dissapointed to hear that there's bugs, but I don't want to miss the 30% offer waiting for gameSpace 2. Even if I do need to get gameSpace 2.0 I won't need to pay the full price, only the upgrade.

transient
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Posted: 15th Dec 2006 05:48
Gamespace is one of the easiest 3d software packages out there, so why you would be complaining about it being hard to use is weird.

There have been miscellaneous complaints about the cost of training, but I routinely get special offers for Truespace video modules via e-mail, so this is basically just a pointless criticism.

It's a pity Caligari aren't fixing any more bugs, or doing upgrades, until GS2 as there's only one bad bug (the crash bug), but it's a bad one.

Code Dragon
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Posted: 19th Dec 2006 02:25
I just ordered gameSpace, I've found more recommendation for it, and I'm seeing that it supports everything I'm going to need. I wasn't complaining about gameSpace at all, transient, I was just asking if the complaints were realistic.

transient
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Posted: 19th Dec 2006 05:36
My comments weren't directed towards you or anyone in particular.

You said you'd heard GS was "too hard and confusing", but I personally think it's one of the more straightforward 3d apps.

It's not a bad time to get into GS, as it is going to be revamped after Caligari finish the Truespace update.

KeithC
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Posted: 19th Dec 2006 13:39
If you want to see what will eventually be in store for GameSpace 2 check out the "Captain's Blog" in the Truespace forums. Some of what you see won't make it into GS2, but you can probably pick out what will.

-Keith

Code Dragon
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Posted: 24th Dec 2006 21:49 Edited at: 24th Dec 2006 22:21
Nevermind.

"Did I ever tell you how I got the nickname the Dragon of the West?"
"I'm not interested in a lengthy anecdote, Uncle."
"It's more of a demonstration really."
KeithC
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Posted: 25th Dec 2006 02:18
Nevermind what?

Venge
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Posted: 25th Dec 2006 02:26
I don't see why everyone thinks blender is hard to learn.
If you get the wikibook noob-to-pro thing or use the online manual, its easy to learn.

I've been using it for about 2 months i think, and I have no problems with the interface or whatever.

Check out my charger in 3d chat forum =)
Code Dragon
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Posted: 25th Dec 2006 03:50
@KeithC

I couldn't figure out where to download the real version gameSpace, but I found it now. The reson I waited so long is that I'm making a 2d game and didn't bother to install it yet because I didn't need to make 3d models.

@venge

I've looked at alot of 3d modeling programs, and they're all kind of hard to learn. I haven't seen one that has the standard windows interface, the kind you see in a Visual Basic program. I haven't used blender though, so I don't have any idea how it compares though.

"Did I ever tell you how I got the nickname the Dragon of the West?"
"I'm not interested in a lengthy anecdote, Uncle."
"It's more of a demonstration really."
MrNick
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Posted: 25th Dec 2006 19:07
In summary:
Gamespace is excellent for just about everything in terms of usability and modelling. Its only issue is exporting to certain formats: for example... in one instance I tried exporting a model of a marine complete with dieing animation... when loaded in DB pro... the Y-move layer in the animation was increased x5...! This issue is *ussually* solved by exporting in a different format and converting the model in a program like milkshape.

confusious said: "a man who stands on toilet is high on pot"

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