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Geek Culture / Possible Publisher

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Shadow Robert
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Joined: 22nd Sep 2002
Location: Hertfordshire, England
Posted: 15th Oct 2002 22:51
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Well there will be full news later tonight when i have more than 30mins to write this ...

- DBCG: Ancient Dark is now a closed project, currently being lead by KD (may reopen in the future)

- We are having an online store developed for FMTau Labs (incase some didn't know)... right now all that will be stocked will be game media, such as models, textures, music and sounds.

However we are currently toying with the idea of making a mark (albeit small) for becomming a semi-publishing house.
What we will be offering is a viable solution for those DarkBasic users who wish to have thier games published as FULL retail titles. Titles will be given automatic protection using AuthentiCode, and will also be fully packaged and delivered world wide.

Please note we are only thinking about this, and looking into the full extent of the licence costs - as it appears that right now most titles require some work before they are publishable, then we all have time. However polished titles - suchas LightCyclesGC are basically what is being looked for. We will hold a demo hosting service for any games we publish or are to publish.

More info will become available later - however it does give people something to think about and a reason for anyone who is here to make money to actually learn to develop using DarkBasic quite extensively.

We will be looking for ORIGINAL game thought, so anything we're likely to have to pay ridicolous licence fees for - can really forget it as we have nither the backing nor guts to publish something that is likely to be hard to even break even on!

Don't think mega titles, just think simple games - like platformers as right now there is a real lack of these ... perhaps even in 2D to bring back nostalgia!
Holy jumping mother of god NOOOO!!!...http://members.lycos.co.uk/TimeSaga/smile/wack.gif[/img]
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CD On CD
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Location: United States
Posted: 15th Oct 2002 23:04
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raven:
sounds really great!
at least it gives really good DBPers something to "hope" for , eh?

United We (Still) Stand
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Martyn Pittuck
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Location: United Kingdom
Posted: 15th Oct 2002 23:17
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Yeah sound the best. The shopping system will be the best

While i am here, will the payments be manually processed or done through a merchant (xpensive) or paypal (not professional).

A manual one will mean going to the bank to pay in credit card payments (you will have to sort of getting credit card slips too by talking to the bank).

The Outside is a evil place to be, too much light, too much noise and too many distractions....
I went outside once and my FPS rate dropped to 5.
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rapscaLLion
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Posted: 16th Oct 2002 02:03
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That actually sounds like a good idea
If it works out, it will be a great thing for the DB community!

Alex Wanuch
aka rapscaLLion
Get the DB Weekly Newsletter at www.dbwn.cjb.net
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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 16th Oct 2002 08:16
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Well the money side of things will be left in your hands Martyn - as our new Jnr Webmaster (hopefully to become our fulltime one) it'll be part of what your sorting out as you already knew
However i think it has to be noted, i'm working out of my own pocket still - so whatever solution is used for the next 6months will need to be cost effective!

I do have a professional graphics artist who is at FMTau part-time so boxart, manualart and alike isn't going to just be thrown together it is to be well planned out to look outstanding!

We going to be working more on making a name for ourselves, and the titles published - so it is likely that we're going to be working to nonprofit for a while.

Anyone who has a game in late development and is thinking about having it published - then feel free to contact me at timesaga@lycos.co.uk, please include screenshots and/or demos... and we'll talk with you about possible publishing packages.

If someone could forward this message onto the RGT site then I would be greatful ... bad blood between myself and GuyS (as most will know about ) prevent my from doing this personally, and most of my staff don't use RGT.

<Please note that nothing is set on this service yet and this is a test for quality and quantity of titles available>

Thank you

Holy jumping mother of god NOOOO!!!...
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Martyn Pittuck
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Posted: 16th Oct 2002 12:00
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For cost effectiveness the manual way is the best.
Still you will need to get deatils from your local bank.

DBS use Share It which may also be a good idea as they handal all the payments and put the money into your account.
I will look into this system for you ASAP

The Outside is a evil place to be, too much light, too much noise and too many distractions....
I went outside once and my FPS rate dropped to 5.
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Mirthin
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Posted: 16th Oct 2002 18:48
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Sounds like a good plan, personally I wouldn't skip the inconvenience of doing it manually. I'd like to thank you for helping the community and I'll back you all the way. If you need an endorsement or free advertising on my site, just ask. If you go through with this and as you start out, I'd certainly give you a more than fair quote on my software. I'll watch this space.
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AlecM
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Posted: 17th Oct 2002 00:13
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For the love of God stop calling him raven

Goto http://www.shellshockede.com
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rapscaLLion
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Posted: 17th Oct 2002 01:21
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It's a very good idea, and I would deffinately (spelling?) be interested for one or more of my projects.
I personally suggest offering both ShareIt/PayPal, and manual payment.

Alex Wanuch
aka rapscaLLion
Get the DB Weekly Newsletter at www.dbwn.cjb.net
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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 17th Oct 2002 03:14
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Gotta say its encouraging for you to be interested Raps
I'll probably test run it with one or two titles, see how they're pickup up by people - then who knows eh

I guess whatever is setup is really upto Martyn as i have no clue about much webrelated - well i'm sure something will be setup that works. The frameworks is being put together at the moment (i think)

Just for those who arn't quite aware of how a publisher works ... we won't be looking for software is in, we see something we want to publish and we bid for the rights - isn't how it works.
Basically if you come to us - and after testing the title we feel it is marketable, then we ofter you a Licence ... which would be complete rights for a set figure say $1,000 or a percentage of the profit for a set time. There will be a complete document on everything about this.

Whatever the deal it will be made properly and with both sides in agreement within a negotiation (with impartial witnesses for legal reasons) - and a written contract will be posted and such. As I've checked the laws - if you are under 18 then your legal Parent/Guardian will need to sign paper we send as well as conscent... I am aware that in certain countries the laws are different however to keep this all friendly world wide, gonna be to international legal age of conscent
Also all money transactions over $10,000 will need to be within thier accounts rather than your own - as right now I don't have that kinda money to splash on a single title, i think it is safe to say that it won't be required for a while - however it is good knowlage.

As for advertisment for titles, well you can be assured that we have a few companies (as most will know) that are tied to FMTau - so marketing isn't a problem, but thank you for the offer.

----------------------------------------------------------
Finally I'd like to go into note about the types of games and merits.
Basically the merits come down to how good it is all round. All of the FMTau staff will test out the demo, and based upon that we will determin how well it plays, depth, story (if applicable), enjoyment and finally its graphics.

It is good to remember that graphics don't need to be hyper-real or fully effect driven - just be effective!
And don't think we won't publish 2D games,because personally I feel we need a new Double Dragon or Earthworm Jim to get everyone nostalgic.
Also wrestling games are very popular, yet no decent PC conversion has been made!
Or perhaps even an adventure game like Monkey Island!

There are many genres other than FPS and RPG... this is because unless the title is developed exceptionally well and very well thought out, then we'll loose out to other titles on the market. Unreal2 and Doom3 soon, plus FinalFantasy XI and StarWars Galaxies!
Perhaps blending genres would help.

Game will be accepted on thier own merits of course, however there is a limit to the amount of WW2 FPS's i can take!
The name of the game is to be inventive... perhaps it sounds more risky to sell something new, but in a resturant which only sells pasta - after several weeks if you put pizza on the menu you might be shocked at the results

Holy jumping mother of god NOOOO!!!...
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Mirthin
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Posted: 18th Oct 2002 04:04
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Perhaps you could negotiate a smaller capital investment and a smaller royalties percentage e.g. You buy the title for $500 and 10% instead of $1000 or 20%. Personally I prefer a royalty basis, it's like piecework. The better you do, the more you get. I'm interested in quality over quantity.

What kind of 'estimated playing time' are you after? 40 hours? 80 hours? And what sort of market would you like to target? Is a 3D platformer aimed at the 7-13 range out of the question? I know you can't answer some of these questions without a sample of my work, but I'm working on that. Earlier you typed that you would sell titles worldwide. I'm intrigued by this, as I live in Scotland and can't find a good publisher over here. I look forward to the outcome of this proposal, it sounds good to me. I'm sure there's plenty of raw talent out there that you can sell, so go for it!
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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 18th Oct 2002 10:13
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Yes the raw talent is there... however we're also aware of how many DB users are - and are not quite prepaired for the Investment Style of Publishing quite yet.
Mainly because I believe the second we purchase a title the developer will take the money and simply stop developing - which would ruin this service for everyone.

Basically the setup is simple, we test the titles for around a week ... we will then take a day to discuss the title and finally reach a group decision on if we pick it up and continue negotiations or it still requires work.
Once a title is accepted AND the developer has agreed to a licence contract - then we'll go about aiming and advertising the product.

What the title is really doesn't matter - i'm sure we can find a place for everything, however i'd suggest steering clear of 0-8years learning products ... mainly cause we have non of them to test out the product on

I mean your best bet is making a game which is fun and accessable to as many age groups as possible - as we will require games to be certificated prior to retail, then please keep in mind a 7-13 platformer can't have the main character tellin' everyone thier a "mother f**ker!" (althought this would be amusing )

Well hopefully this answers all the questions for now

Holy jumping mother of god NOOOO!!!...
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Mirthin
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Posted: 18th Oct 2002 15:48
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>please keep in mind a 7-13 platformer can't have the main character tellin' everyone thier a "mother f**ker!"<

I'm aware that I'll be juggling audiences with censorship, but it's no problem.

>I believe the second we purchase a title the developer will take the money and simply stop developing - which would ruin this service for everyone.<

Yes it may happen a few times, but I develop games because I love them. If I won the national lottery I wouldn't give it up. I'd just have more money to invest in better hardware.

>I suggest steering clear of 0-8years learning products<

My project is a platformer, and I hope no one learns from it! The 7-13 age band is just a guide. I've heard of many success stories that were geared towards childeren and have become a family favourite. Star Wars. The Lord of the Rings. The Monkey Island series. Etc.

I'm a little rough on details of commerce, law and the basic process. If you could kinda type up a guide and post it on your website or even here, I'd be grateful.
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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 18th Oct 2002 21:55
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Website is currently under heavy development (which is kinda hard as the webmasters dev PC is down for a while and i can't seem to upload a tool he needs) - there will be full information on it once it is up.

Try not to band yourself to an exact age range, just think of the lowest you'll be aiming for - the rating board for each country obviously will have final decision, and i've found the US, Germany and Sweeden seem to be very strick in this respect (even thought Germany and Sweeden are both govern'd by ELSPA).

I mean if you have a fighting game and don't put blood in it then for some reason they are rated lower, so really this should be thought about - however it can be discussed in later detail per title with the developers, as we find out THIER aimed age group
As I said we don't rate them, not our place or right ... but we have good ideas on what passes in most countries.

We will be offering several forms of Licence, but not right away for most:
- Standard, 1year (365days) Exclusive Rights - Percentage of Gross Sales
- Standard Retail, 1year (365days) Exclusive Rights - Set Amount purchase
- Buyout, For a set amount we purchase the title lock, stock and barrel (including source and rights)
- Obligation, we basically subsidise development costs - this means that the title then has shared rights between the developer and publish, however only we may sell the publishing right on!

there are more forms of contract that are having details worked out, however these are the currently approved.
General essential to publishing costs and operations are done by if not already done by the development team, suchas Box Art, Manuals, CD/DvD Art, Piracy Protection, etc...

The law dictates that whilst we have a publshing licences only we my retail the product onto retail companies or in any form on the internet.
Also anyone under 18 will require their parents/legal guardian to give consent and accept any money on your behalf (i'd assume they'll give it back )
We are not responsible for updates of the product the development team are - we are not responsible for damages if the wrong wavers are put in place, however we will write our own Licence and Wavers for the product as well as help teams use standard ELUA's and such.
Also we arn't required to give support for any products we publish.
The rights are sketchy and best talked about with the developers themselves as and when because we will require you to understand them fully.
All contracts are legally binding, and also must be signed by hand - this will require FMTau to have sensitive information suchas home address, age, etc... it is protected under the non-discloser agreement and are never shared with partner companies (for internal use only!).

There is more i can think of to write about this but hopefully this covers the main questions

Holy jumping mother of god NOOOO!!!...
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Mirthin
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Posted: 18th Oct 2002 22:11
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I'd handle retail box art and stuff, but piracy protection is a toughie. I hear it's expensive. I hate the fact that I'm not recognised as an adult in the US but I'll have to deal with it. If we were to sign a contract could I buy personal copies at a reduced cost to give out to family members? Age range, well I'll probably get a 3+ age rating but would you be able to cater for such costs? As for updates and fixes I can deal. I recognise this responsibility. I think a royalty basis is mutually benefitial, as a game gives as much as it gets, and neither the developer nor the publisher get screwed with an under/overestimated capital sum. Sorry to post with more questions, but the more you spill the more I think.
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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 19th Oct 2002 02:14
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Put simply the costs at this point arn't that great...
I have developed our own installation software using the Windows Installer SDK 1.1 - which is InstallShield catered specially for Windows, but as it is an SDK is really versitile to the needs. The Piracy Protection is to be AuthentiCode - the past few days it has been put through its paces with someone trying to hack a single setup as these will vary from company to company and also more than likely per title as well, i feel that it is relatively secure - however it will be redeveloped within C and compiled to completely make sure and give better regkey access

The costs are actually based on profit per product -
as there will be a set stock run off (with extra done on demand) the original cost will be materials. How so?
Becuase all the rest is paid when the product is shipped and already paid for ...
Lets say I can run off games for $3/copy (greatly increases with long colour manuals) plus $5-$10 for delivery however this is placed within the final price of the product.
So right now we're at $8/copy within the states ... now if we sold it at say $20 then the developer would make $5 per copy (under defualt contract) - so basically what we're left with here is $7 profit, which a certain amount will goto the tax man
we'll be making a profit - but barely. Of course this is just an example ... but you get the idea. Its not going to be mega bucks we make, unless the game is wildly popular.

I think as far as developer discounts go then the cost of materials is what we'll sell it to you for - however legally if you give them a copy prior to signing a contract then they can have it for the cost of a CDR
If you do it after it is considered piracy - hopefully that makes the rights on that a lil clearer

Still don't get too wrapped up into this - it will be atleast 2weeks before well have a working system for this to be viable. Even then we'll be holding a test of 3 products to release ... IF they do realitively well and turn in enough profit to make this seem worth all the costs. We will then open it up as a fully working system

I mean it is good for us as everything is being developed in-house that we're gonna use. This results in no external costs really. It also means that if this fails or is struggling we will produce our own software to help out with costs and such...
gameSpace and Ciyanna Studio XP are in development as home and profesional solutions - both are a long way off retail level, however do have potential. Not to mention we can retail the Installer & AuthentiCode.
Hopefully we can keep them in-house for a while, i have my reasons for this
But it is always good to have a backup plan incase things go wrong...

Anata aru kowagaru no watashi!
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Mirthin
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Posted: 19th Oct 2002 02:34
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It's considered piracy if I buy directly from my own publisher and give the software as gfts to my family? I don't see the logic there. Would you object to spyware? It worked for Lionhead Studios. I think that's a good solution to piracy.
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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 19th Oct 2002 11:12
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Well basically the point behind that is that, once you sign the licence until the said licence is up the software is no longer your property to do with as you wish.
I mean if you wanted to simply CDR a few copies and give them to your family and such then as long as we are told about them ... them we'll be happy to issue free codes. However if there are versions out there which arn't AuthentiCoded (even with your family members), then run the risk of ending up on a warez site or KaZaA or something - this would undermine our profits and make us think twice about publishing.

If it is done BEFORE we gain the rights then really there is nothing we can do - but after then it won't be fair on us ... hope this all makes sense. I'm not objecting to cut-down/free copies for the developers ... what i'm saying is i don't want to see it end up on the net without piracy protection!

It may not seem like much, but if you give an unprotect version to your family - one of them may hand that on to a friend,then that is put onto a small site ... before you know it most people have and play your game and we're seriously out of pocket as a result (BOTH FMTau AND the DEVELOPER!!)

I'm not sure what you mean by spyware though you'll have to expand on that - the only title I'm aware of Lionhead Studios Developing which was EA published was Black&White (and the addon packs) which i know a few people who own copies which arn't legal.
I kinda saw why when i played Black&White, awesome game - but too bloody short... 5 levels i was done in well under a day!!

Anata aru kowagaru no watashi!
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Mirthin
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Posted: 19th Oct 2002 17:13
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I understand now.

Spyware is a type of program that sends out information without a user's consent. In Lionhead's case, it's in the user liscence agreement and by accepting that, you've let black&white access the internet without you knowing. That is legal. It's a good idea, but it can easily be blocked with a firewall. What I had in mind was a mandatory check every time it is run. We don't need to be sneaky about it, but if the program does not establish a connection and doesn't log, it cannot be played. This would help us keep tabs on not only which authorized users are using the program, but also which aren't. If authenticode can protect a program 100% and this feature is incorporated, then we have the ultimate piracy protection system.

And yes, black&white was a rip off.
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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 19th Oct 2002 17:58
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Well effectively AuthentiCode actually works in simple yet effective way...

What happens is the program has a serial key packaged - now depending on the developers setup this will allow the person to use the title, however probably in a limited fashion. However when the user connects to the internet AuthentiCode will require them to register the game with us here at FMTau. If they don't the the serial code is deactivated from the product - registration is free and will only actually have to register details upon original purchase - from then on they upgrade their details per title. Only one serial key made registered PER household, this will allow network games to be copied for internal use
If the person changes address or ISP they must have this updated useing thier personal identification code - and the previous ISP details will become void.

The system will probably be a bother when they first use the game, but like Microsofts Activation!
We gather computer information as well during this process which helps us to cataloge what systems are currently widely used - just general things like processor, speed and type, etc... this is benificial to us as many people are unsure on howto access the details we will want

I'm not going to say AuthentiCode is 100% secure because making a statment like that will just convince hackers to try even harder. However it is certainly a fort knox for anyone using DB

Anata aru kowagaru no watashi!
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Mirthin
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Posted: 19th Oct 2002 20:28
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Good point. Perhaps we can integrate the functionality of AuthentiCode with limitations 'cause as you said, it can limit functionality. If someone makes an illegal copy, it could report to the deeloper's/publisher's site silently. This data could then be used in conjunction with the noisy AuthentiCode activation to check against our list of consumers.
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rapscaLLion
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Posted: 20th Oct 2002 00:58
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Well, it seems to me like this is an excellent idea. It would push developers to actually finish titles, which is one thing DB needs! After my main project is done, by the end of this year I will have time to start something else. I already have some ideas, maybe I'll send you some design docs later.

Alex Wanuch
aka rapscaLLion
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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 20th Oct 2002 13:38
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oki, look forward to hearing from you then Raps.
just incase most posts are too large and many never got to the email addy
fubarmt@eidosnet.co.uk

feel free to ask about enquire about this, howto get us to reveiw your titles, or such...

Anata aru kowagaru no watashi!
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