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FPSC Classic Product Chat / So, you want to go Vista?

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Benjamin A
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Posted: 30th Jan 2007 09:29 Edited at: 30th Jan 2007 09:32
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I do believe this article may be very interesting to a good number of us as amatuer/home/indie/fun game developers. Before you think Vista & DX10 & FPSC X10 will make the next big title (as lot's of us are hoping for), you may want to read the following article: http://biz.gamedaily.com/industry/feature/?id=14952

Read it carefully and note what Microsoft is saying.... if you want to be selling your next FPSC title for Vista, be prepared to not only invest in new hadr & software, but if parents decide to turn on the game explorer in Vista, you will NEED to get an ESRB rating for your game also and that will cost you another $2000-$3000 per game.

If people decide to turn off the ESRB rating system in Vista then you're fine, but since there's big money involved, expect a huge push to use the system by MS & ESRB and perhaps a number o well know publishers. I wouldn't be suprised if this is going to be mandetory in the future.

So, as a game developer you're planning on going Vista? Perhaps it's time to really start counting the costs.

Anyway if you join TGC's quest for being the first to release a great title for Vista.... think again and be prepared to invest a bit more then you intended to do so. Seems like the market for DX10 games is getting smaller and smaller and smaller.... and the real question is, is it really worth it?

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Mr Makealotofsmoke
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Posted: 30th Jan 2007 09:46 Edited at: 30th Jan 2007 13:44
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thats sucks
bill gates and his money
maybe if we ring him up he can change it just for us
(i like bill gates) better than that crap apple junk

If I Want It, I Want It

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Reality Forgotten
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Posted: 30th Jan 2007 10:02
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Ben- Thanks for the heads up! That is very disturbing news indeed.....
There always has to be a catch, doesn't there?


Regards,
RF


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Van B
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Posted: 30th Jan 2007 10:02
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I don't think it's a case of being worth it, because we probably said the same thing about XP.

There is a lot of investment in moving to Vista and DX10 - but at the end of the day we'll all end up using Vista anyway, XP has lasted a long time and will continue but the more games and systems that become available the less there will be for XP.

I think making the investment now and getting the benefits is a good idea, FPSC10 and DBProX10 sound and look great, I think that alone will get people here switching before long.

As for the ESRB rating, that's a bit of a worry - but I suppose if I had a game good enough to make a few grand in the first place I'd invest (using money made from non-ESRB locked users). Maybe they'll introduce a voluntary rating system, for indi folk like us and freeware developers. There should really be a system where if people complain about a voluntary rating to the ESRB folk, they can take action, but unless that happens you shouldn't have to pay. I don't know, these things tend to be doused by common sense by the time they become a real concern.

''Stick that in your text and scroll it!.''
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Benjamin A
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Posted: 30th Jan 2007 10:12
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I'm not against ratings at all, it's a good thing, but you cannot expect someone who makes games for fun and releases them for free, to pay $2000-$3000 to get a rating.

There should be an alternative free rating system also. I'm not completely sure what MS was thinking when thy implemented this rating system.

The rating system can be switched off, but the question is, will people do so.... Of course hardcore gamers will, but will the more casual / family type do it also? This whole move of MS could well kill free games and I do hope that MS realizes this and think of some better alternatives. MS seems to be way to protective crazy lately. This whole ESRB has a huge potential danger it it, but I do hope MS will think of an alternative that will not destroy our hobby.

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Reality Forgotten
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Posted: 30th Jan 2007 11:28
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Quote: "This whole move of MS could well kill free games and I do hope that MS realizes this and think of some better alternatives."


Well I wouldn't want to start a conspiracy theory or anything but inthat statement lies the ruth behind MS's motives. Pay attention to the "Kill free games" part. I find it funny as well that MS is currrently under EU's microscope for their new internet language. (the one that is supposed to replace xhtml). I will be watching the news alot, though in the end Van is right, We will all eventually own vista , it's going to be impossible not to own it...

Regards,
RF


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Mr Makealotofsmoke
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Posted: 30th Jan 2007 12:01
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just hack it lol

If I Want It, I Want It

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Silvester
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Posted: 30th Jan 2007 12:48
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I will only get Vista if it plays DX9 games for 100%(or atleast 95%)

as what i heard Vista destroys DX9 games,and replaced graphics with something different.So im not getting it untill it supports DX9 95% atleast.

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switch style
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Posted: 30th Jan 2007 13:19
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i agree with prince of darkness and vista is out now.
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Mickm
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Posted: 30th Jan 2007 13:29
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I am sure Microsoft has something planned. If not why would they release XNA?

I think once it hits mainstream (hey thats today ) then people will start to see what Microsoft has planned for the dev. world.

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bond1
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Posted: 30th Jan 2007 14:38 Edited at: 30th Jan 2007 14:43
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Yeah that seems like a pain, coulnd't you put a big pop up screen first thing during install that instructs the user to turn off the ESRB system? Then explain that the game is for 12+ or whatever?

EDIT: I see there is a setting that you make called ingore unrated titles, so you wouldn't have to turn off the ESRB system altogether.

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Benjamin A
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Posted: 30th Jan 2007 15:05 Edited at: 30th Jan 2007 15:06
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Yes you could..... if the player has admin rights, if not.....

But the whole thing that bothers me about Vista is that MS seems to determine what is good for the user, not the other way around. The user needs go through all kinds of settings to get rid of the of all these un-asked for features. It should be the other way around, if I want whatever parental/user/drm/and so on control, I switch it on myself. I determine what kind of security I want/need, not Bill Gates, he's not my dad, although he seems to become more and more of a Big Brother

Imo Vista is going overboard on about every kind of protection, soon we have little Bill Gates popup in windows telling us we're not allowed to watch this movie, download this or that, or play the games we like..... and even tell us when to go to bed. Can you imagine that?

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Urlforce Studios
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Posted: 30th Jan 2007 15:42
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["It's unfortunately a mercenary way of doing things," he explains, "but, even though we're Microsoft, we do have limited resources. And we do look at the sales charts to determine where our help will have the most impact. Certainly we want Blizzard's 'World Of Warcraft' [currently the most popular massive multiplayer online game] to work flawlessly on day one of Vista because 8 million tech support calls would be a very bad thing. The casual developers don't sell quite as many." ]

I think if I ever go vista I will direct my future customers' support calls to MS' number, just to "show daddy what his son has done"

Sales charts my epic [pre-mod edit edit]! MS is just protecting themselves from lawsuits from Blizzard and every other "big name" developer with loads of cash in their pocket, and at the same time probably getting the money from the endorsements of big titles' publishers and the esrb.
On the other hand, I guess if someone with FPSC made a game and got it published, the publisher might go the extra yard to get it rated.
I'm just saddened by the fact that microsoft feels like they need to do everything and they have forgotten they were once the little guy.

He said, "You drink when you're lonely." No I drink when I want!
He said, "You'll never be sober." Sure. Why would I want that?
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filya
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Posted: 30th Jan 2007 16:08
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This is bad And it keeps getting worse!!

MS really needs to learn how to mind their own. Make a OS, sell it and let the end-user decide on what he wants on his/her PC!! Stop meddling around, especially if it's going to cost so much!!

-- game dev is fun...but taking up too much time --
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bond1
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Posted: 30th Jan 2007 16:30
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Quote: "But the whole thing that bothers me about Vista is that MS seems to determine what is good for the user, not the other way around."


You got that right, for sure. If you're Joe Casual user you don't really know how to change this type of stuff, probably why I get calls from family members on a daily basis asking how to change this or that. All in the name of "security".

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Mickm
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Posted: 30th Jan 2007 16:43
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Microsoft is trying to stop the law suits of little kid's parents.
Microsoft has made it for the parent to be smarter. I don't know if anyone remembers the school shootings, or the car jackings.

People go blaming games, Microsoft is trying to stop this. By doing this system, YES that means either you (the administrator) or a Parent will need to know a bit of computer knowledge.

I have no problem with Vista and I for one am glad they added this system. It keeps companies like RockStar from getting sued.

Ben imagine if I played your game and went and started squirting people in the face with my watergun? Whos to blame me or your game?
I can easily blame your game and win. There was nothing stopping me from playing it and really I wouldn't feel sorry if I won the law suit. The same goes for every game ever made.

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FredP
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Posted: 30th Jan 2007 16:49
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Now we are back to the same old story.Instead of taking responsibility for our actions we are going to make it someone else's responsibility to moderate what our kids do or don't do.
It is amazing that nobody ever points out that parents should be responsible for what their kids do...or for what they do themselves.
That is what is wrong with the world today.It is a lot easier to blame Bill Gates or Rockstar for our screw ups instead of just admitting we screwed up.

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Mickm
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Posted: 30th Jan 2007 16:57
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Quote: "It is amazing that nobody ever points out that parents should be responsible for what their kids do...or for what they do themselves."


Exactly, I for one am tired of hearing parents / kids blame developers / games for their actions.

You should all be greatful that Microsoft is atleast trying to fix the problem. If little jimmy goes into a school after playing with the various school packs here and starts doing all the things you can in FPSC. If Jimmy was running Microsoft Vista then the parent / guardian would be at fault not your game.

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BULLSHOCK 2
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Posted: 30th Jan 2007 17:16
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vistas wiindows are see-through


http://www.seqoiagames.com/seqoiacorp/
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filya
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Posted: 30th Jan 2007 18:29
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not in vista basic and that is what I feel most of us will use...unless you plan on shelling out an additional $100 for see-through windows

-- game dev is fun...but taking up too much time --
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Pus In Boots
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Posted: 30th Jan 2007 18:36
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Quote: "will NEED to get an ESRB rating for your game also and that will cost you another $2000-$3000 per game.
"


I thought ESRB rated games for free.

Your signature has been erased by a mod. How about that?
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Posted: 30th Jan 2007 19:23
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ESRB ratings depend on the country you live in. Like in the UK, a game has to be written according to the writers guild's outline. (check out there website..use google to find it ). YOU should also go to IGDA (international game developers network) and see what they hold as guidlines.

http://www.writersguild.org.uk/public/003_WritersGuil/084_Gamesguidelin.html

http://www.igda.org/articles/mmencher_networking.php

Enjoy
RF


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Candle_
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Posted: 30th Jan 2007 23:22
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Look the other way.



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the_winch
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Posted: 31st Jan 2007 18:16
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I don't think this will be a problem as Microsoft always makes half hearted efforts with this sort of stuff.

Start working on your ultra-violent games know. Loads of kids will be looking for them when it refuses to run Grand Theft Auto but will run random downloaded programs that it can't find in its database of bad games.

By way of demonstration, he emitted a batlike squeak that was indeed bothersome.
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empty
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Posted: 31st Jan 2007 18:25
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Quote: "I don't think this will be a problem as Microsoft always makes half hearted efforts with this sort of stuff."

Yep, I'm inclined to agree with that.
In maybe 6 (or more) months time we'll see what the real hurdles are.

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Butter fingers
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Posted: 1st Feb 2007 03:07
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2 things.

1st. Vistas DVD code has already been hacked. Some canadian sent bill gates a pirate DVD of Vista, burned from the new operating system's DVD burning software. Just to let them know it wasn't all it was cracked up to be!

2nd. How about an alternative point of view? click here --->

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PAS
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Posted: 2nd Feb 2007 18:26
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Vista is to early in the stages of development to even worry about it right this second. ESRB is mainly only used by big time developers who want to run games for big platforms like XBox or through retailers who are registered through the ESRB and will only sell games that have a rating. There are studios that sell their own published titles that do not even use the ESRB system. If Vista did halt the development world, that would be a great dela of games sold out there and not necessarily sold through stoes, but websites like GameSloth and etc. That would make Vista a product to not buy because there are many adults who buy these violant games and play them and do you think they will switch to a system where they could not run their games? In order to get a ESRB rating you have to apply to the ESRB. I say do nto worry, but thta is just my opinion. As the time goes on we will see the developments and if Vista is like that, then I will just buy custom computers wihtout Vista. I have alot of independent game sI bought with no rating.

K.L. Phair
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Posted: 2nd Feb 2007 18:51
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Quote: "Vista is to early in the stages of development to even worry about it right this second. ESRB is mainly only used by big time developers who want to run games for big platforms like XBox or through retailers who are registered through the ESRB and will only sell games that have a rating."


I think you need to stop by this website and read it. You will find things are quite different from what you think. Everything you wanted to know about an ESRB

Many of you already have stuff in your house that has this type of bigbrother program installed. If you have a satelite dish, a cable box, an x-box, playstation than you have the same abiity to deny media that has a certain rating to be played. I am no way a lawyer but I do read quite a bit as to undefrstand the subject matter I am responding to. I suggest more people start doing that as well.

Regards.
RF


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Benjamin A
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Posted: 2nd Feb 2007 22:39
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Quote: "Vista is to early in the stages of development to even worry about it right this second. ESRB is mainly only used by big time developers who want to run games for big platforms like XBox or through retailers who are registered through the ESRB and will only sell games that have a rating. "


Two things before I'm going to watch my favourite movie: First of all Vista isn't in the early stages of development anymore, it's out now. Being through alpha, beta, two times public beta and now going gold isn't excalty an early in the stages of development anymore.

Secondly.... ESRB rating are already in Vista and will apply to small game developers also and you can be sure MS is going to push this more and more.

As RF states you may want to read up on this a bit more, it will in the end affect all of us if MS is allowed to pursue this as they want it to be and take a lot of us out of business.

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HyperByte
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Posted: 2nd Feb 2007 23:05
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I cant wait to get vista

On a scale from one to ten one being very smart and ten being an absolute genius your none of the above
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Candle_
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Posted: 3rd Feb 2007 00:48
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Quote: "I cant wait to get vista"


hahaha
Quote: "On a scale from one to ten one being very smart and ten being an absolute genius your none of the above"



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RedneckRambo
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Posted: 3rd Feb 2007 01:08
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I can't wait till I know vista is perfect and X10 is uber sweet. But as of now, not for me nor my money.

Tiggle Bitties

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Benjamin A
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Posted: 3rd Feb 2007 01:22
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Quote: "I cant wait to get vista"


I can wait a long time if I need too.

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Steve J
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Posted: 3rd Feb 2007 02:42
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lmao, some people here just make me laugh. I have vista, got it from MSDN subscription. First off: DX9 games work perfect for me. Second off: DX10 demos work great for me. As far as I know that feature doesnt work that well, and there are many work arounds if you want to spend that much time on it. I am so tired of the little kiddies here refering to microsoft as "Bill Gates", and saying he sucks. Sorry to break it to you, but Bill isnt the all mighty ruler of microsoft. Complain to the stock holders, the ceo, and the numerous people who drive microsoft. Then there is the whole point of the ESRB crap. Guess what? Vista IS early in development. As far as I am concerned, until the SP1 for Vista, many of the features wont matter excessivly (like this one). Trust me on this. If Microsoft feels that their users arent reacting positively to this system they will remove it then.

Just my $200.

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AlanC
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Posted: 3rd Feb 2007 02:55
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$2000-$3000 is extremely bad . But they get away with it .


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PAS
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@ Steve J: Yea I have to agree with you. I dont have Vista but have seen small bits about it. As far as reading on it I will, but as far as I know where I am at, Vista is new. As far as the ESRB ratings, this is the first place I ever heard about it being a future problem. Unless youre making a game for Playstation or something, then I do nto see why people are worried about the ratings for now. Even if you are making a game for PlayStation, they would tkae care of the costs. If you are that worried about the feature, then dont make games that you intend to mass amrket or sell to tohers, if you cannot kepe up with the changes and developments.

Like anything, as it was pointed out, this could be a feature that cna be turned on or off. When I went to buy a game they carded me. So, even if the rating does have something to do with it, if aminor is using the game, their parents can turn it off. That is just the system. Same as movies. Not every parent lets their kid watch a certain rating. If people are that worried about it, then make ties with a publisher. I think people are freaking out, and the only people who will go out of business if an ESRB rating is mandatory, is the people who do not want to work and do what they need to do to get a rating. As for myslef I will not let a rating keep me from marketing gasmes. However, I will keep a version of XP on anothe rcomputer so I can play the games that I do have that do not have ratings if that is what it comes down to. But if people want to freak out and worry about it now, then by all means, feel free to.

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PAS
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Posted: 3rd Feb 2007 05:49
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I just went to Micorsoft and read on the Vista section concerning gaming. It is just like a V chip and contros not only what ESRB ratings your kids cna play but how long etc. and includes music and websites. It does not say anywhere, that you cannot play games that do not have a rating. It only says that parents cna block games, music etc. according to the rating. Its the same on a T.V. and even says it is a feature that is in the XBox 360. It even says every family an dchild is different. Yea, a kid may not be able to sneak your game onto the computer, but honeslty, its not as disasterous as you make it sound. On the screen shot, it even shows a button saying allow games with no rating. Its optional. So of course if someone buys your game and they know it has no rating, they can turn it off. Go to this link, http://www.microsoft.com/windows/products/windowsvista/features/games.mspx ,and see for yourself the screen shot I am talking about. Its not as bad as it seems. Its all optional. Relax.

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Once again sorry for the typos but its late. I hope this helps people understand its not the end of the gaming world for indie developers.

K.L. Phair
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Candle_
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Locrian
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Posted: 3rd Feb 2007 09:28
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The Microsoft collective?

"Resistance is futile";

"Strenght is irrilevant";

"Death is irrilevant";

"Your life, as it has been, is over";

"You will lower your firewall";

"You shall be assimilated and soon all will be proprietary software."
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LD52
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AWWW ESRB Thing Yes they should make An Indie Style Rating! Lets Go everyone on the forum pitch in $5 and lets make our own Rating Company
callled "Indie Style Ratings.com" JOKES But if they or someone did come up with Ratings for Indi Game Developers that would be good!
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zechariah
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Posted: 5th Feb 2007 02:40
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I wouldn't worry about this, guys.
First of all, most parents don't even know how to set up useres and passwords for XP, let alone game nannyware for the Vista.
Secondly, most kids ages 12 to adult, who would be playing our FPS game creations, would get their parents to "open a socket" (to quote 24) for them to play their 'unrated" games. To parents, a game is a game, and a way to kee their kids out of their hair.
Third, trust me, just as they have in the past, M$ will back down on this once people start bit@%ing about loss of control over their PC and all that big brother spying crap.
I certain there's a whole host of non-rated yet widely used software which this "game" nanny filter will start messing with. All we have to do is sit back and watch while M$ and those other larger yet not rated companys battle it out; resulting in M$ turning off the game nanny before shipping.
Lastly, kids will always figure out a way to get around that crap. They always do.
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Benjamin A
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Posted: 5th Feb 2007 08:51
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Quote: "First of all, most parents don't even know how to set up useres and passwords for XP, let alone game nannyware for the Vista. "


That's the problem, from what I do understand it's on by default

Quote: "Secondly, most kids ages 12 to adult, who would be playing our FPS game creations, "


My non-gaming projects created with FPSC are geared at kids 9-13.

Quote: "Third, trust me, just as they have in the past, M$ will back down on this once people start bit@%ing about loss of control over their PC and all that big brother spying crap."


I hope so!

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Posted: 5th Feb 2007 12:31
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Quote: "That's the problem, from what I do understand it's on by default
My non-gaming projects created with FPSC are geared at kids 9-13."

Unless you tell Vista that your app is actually a game, it won't know what it is, and thus the rating stuff has no effect.

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Van B
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Posted: 5th Feb 2007 12:40
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My compo entry simply warns that the publisher is unknown, which is no big shock in XP already, you just have to run it anyway. Good to know it works in Vista, 'tis not as violent a transition as I expected.

Is anyone else saying to themselves 'so what?' when checking out Vista, what happend to those cool physics engine icons that you could throw about the place. Personally I think my PC with StyleXP running looks better . In saying that though, my bro did have the Alienware theme on his PC before reinstalling, so Vista is a massive improvement in that regard. I guess I was expecting something more than slanty windows and preview windows of stuff your running, if I want to look at stuff I'm running, I'll bloody click on it and look with my eyes. I wanted a more involved experience with just using the thing, I wanted to get bored then stack up the icons like dominos and topple them over - why must Microsoft toy with me every single time!.

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wpbob
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Posted: 15th Feb 2007 10:41
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from my experience with vista thus far, only games with an esrb rating embedded are games (according to vista). our games will run no matter what, cuz vista will just think its an application of some sort.
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