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Game Design Theory / Ultimate Photorealism

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Matt Rock
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Posted: 16th Dec 2006 01:17
To my knowledge, this is a pretty unique game design plan. If another game has already used this concept, then I've never seen it, but I sure would like to. Either way, very little could deter me from doing this project.

In a different thread over at Geek Culture, we were discussing games we'd never want to see. Somehow, a conversation about Myst lead me to re-visit an old idea I've had for quite some time now... and I'm pretty sure I'm going to go at this concept full force now.

The idea is to construct a game using photographs of the real-world locales in my area and using them to act as literal first-person views of the play area. I'd shoot in Binghamton, NYC, Syracuse, Ithaca, and several other cities in the New York area. I might even mix it up and go international... find someone in the UK who could take photos for me and mix up the play a bit

If you've played the original Myst, then you're familiar with the control schematic of clicking on an area that you want to travel to, then being taken to that area. This would be virtually the same thing. Take a look at this visual example, and note the numbers I've imposed on the image:



Each of the three numbers marks a clickable area, where the player can make a choice. If they click "1" (one), they'll head west (left) along the street. If they click "2" (two), they'll head east (right) along the street. And if they click "3" (three), they'll enter the building and see the foyer area. This is just a random picture I pulled off the net with a few seconds of MS Paint spent on putting the numbers down, but it should give you an idea of what I'm imagining. At any rate, when you click on one of these regions of the photo, the game would load another photo of the respective area that you're headed to, and all of the functions you could perform in that area.

It gets interesting when you enter a building. For example, let's say you enter a living room. There's a TV and a computer. Well, you could click on the TV and actually turn it on, or click on the computer and read an e-mail or something. Using sprite images of objects in the scene, you could move large objects, open doors, etc. And clicking on some objects might bring up a video segment, where you see the character conversing with someone or interacting with their environment in some way.

So far I'm still in the "how hard is this going to be" phase, but I already know I want it to take place in a ghost town... say, you're playing in a major U.S. city after some apocalyptic event or something. Taking photographs in an urban environment during the day means you'll end up with cars, birds, clouds, and people moving around... but Tinkergirl came up with a brilliant idea to resolve this issue: take multiple photographs at various intervals, then crop together the various images to eliminate the people, animals, and objects moving around in each image.

So here's a few questions:

* Assuming the videos created were shorter than 5 to 10 seconds and shot in a low resolution, how large would each video segment be in terms of file size? Have any of you shot videos similar to this?

* Assuming that each image is in .png or maybe even .jpg format, how many images would be too many?

* What's the largest game (in terms of file size) that you've ever downloaded to play?

* Assuming the game were made well and it were set at a reasonable price (say, below $9.99 and just enough to offset costs), would you consider paying for a game like this?


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Van B
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Posted: 16th Dec 2006 01:52
I had a similar idea a while ago, like a simple MS Powerpoint presentation with clickable areas that let you explore a workplace (factory, office block etc), for company training and inductions. I think it'd be a lot of persuasion and photography, but a nice cerebral game at the end of it.

Perhaps it's a bit unrealistic to consider commercial buildings as fodder, because getting the necessary photographs/videos would take a lot of time. What about going darker, maybe using old buildings where you can grab media to your hearts content, even record environment sounds (pigeons cooing in the roofspace etc). Ironically a horror style game might be the least stressful option. Murder investigation simulation perhaps, combing the crime scene, dusting for prints, that sort of thing. 1 dude with a digi-camera poses no threat to public safety or any real trouble, so actually getting the media would be more doable.

Personally I always liked these sorts of games, but it really depends on the plot, carving out a really interesting plot would be vital. Coming up with puzzles that are not too cliche would be a bonus too, like say you did go with a horror game, and finding a setting like the SAW movies is certainly conceivable - having nasty traps like that to overcome would be a very sellable idea. Consider your target audience for these sorts of games, much more mature audience, reaching out to the sideline gamers who are looking for something different makes sense. I suggest watching SAWIII, ignoring the silly plot, and consider how it could pan out as a damn original game.

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Gil Galvanti
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Posted: 16th Dec 2006 06:26 Edited at: 16th Dec 2006 06:27
Personally, I'd rather play in a virtual fully 3D and interactive world than interacting with various sprites on the screen . Something like your idea sounds more like a "choose your own adventure" game, as in pick a path out of three choices and we'll guide you through it, not really my type of game .

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Matt Rock
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Posted: 16th Dec 2006 06:28
I hadn't even thought of making it a horror game... that's great idea. I'll definitely need to go to school on this subject though, horror is my weakest point, that and fantasy. I could possibly also work in a few pop culture references as well, but not in a comic relief sort of way, more as an homage to the classics. Like in Eternal Equinox, I have this scene where the player is talking with a fisherman, and to the cunning eye, it's actually a dialog from the film "Jaws," but altered to a point where I wouldn't get sued . Most people probably won't even catch the reference, but I dig stuff like that.

I was a huge fan of Phantasmagoria, back when that game had first been released. I might do something along those lines, but without being corny. Thanks to Mazda, I have the entire Northeast of the U.S. at my disposal, although I'd rather shoot locally as much as possible

What do you think of video cut scenes? Do those always come across as tacky (like "Psychic Detective" on the 3DO)? And would they use up so much disc space that it wouldn't be worth it? I'd only use a few, between 5 and 20 depending on how small I can get them (or not at all if they're huge). A part of me thinks it might come across as tacky, but another part of me thinks that with caution and care, the sequences could add a flavor of coolness to the game.


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Wiggett
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Posted: 16th Dec 2006 09:05
they've already done this, it's called virtual tours, they do them on real estate sites but you could extreeme it up a notch by adding terrorists (actors) to jump from behind things and you have to film them shooting or dying. an dthen in teh game you click on them.

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Tinkergirl
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Posted: 16th Dec 2006 18:52
I'm convinced I've seen something like this before - I'm sure it was set on an old train too, and had live-action actors in cut scenes (I believe it was a mystery point and click adventure).

Personally, video of people can all too easily descend into cheesiness, imo, unless you've got some really good actors/actresses, scripts and direction. Video of other things (like books opening, TVs being turned on, cupboards being opened) is far less likely to look rubbish, but if it's a downloadable game you have to weigh up how much that video would add to your game content-wise, versus how much it adds to your download size. If it's just for pretties, it might not be worth it, but if it's for game essential information (spotting the number that someone types in on a keypad doorlock on a security camera video, for example) then you've got more reason to push for it.

I've not downloaded this, but it sounds like an 'Escape the room' version of what you're talking about. Might be good to see what others have done

I'd also like to make you aware of an oft forgotten market in puzzle/mystery/pointandclick games - little old ladies. The kinds that just EAT up Miss Marple adventures and Murder She Wrote. I was shocked to discover it, but when I worked in EB, I found them to be well informed, astute and discerning fans of the mystery genre.

Oh - and episodic. Episodic would be good, imo. I still believe that the person who can churn out well written episodic adventure mysteries will have a small but rabidly-keen audience salivating at their every update.

Cash Curtis II
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Posted: 16th Dec 2006 19:40
The problem, Matt, is that collections of pictures are still static and non interactive in nature. You mentioned moving around sprites of objects. That would just look bad, like cut and paste. It's an old concept that was done when CD-Roms first game out. People had the capacity to store all of those pictures and no 3D yet. I remember there was a tour of the Starship Enterprise 1701-D like this. I never saw it, but I read about it. Thousands of photos, strung together like beads in an Asian sweatshop.

Then you have the problem of actors. Basically, you couldn't have anyone else doing anything else in the game.

The thing is Matt, you could take all of those pictures you'll be taken, and construct ulta realistic 3D environments. If you took the time to do so, it could look extremely realistic. Then you could introduce whatever elements you wanted, and it wouldn't feel like it was taking place in a bad 1992 teenagers-got-sucked-into-a-computer movie.


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Matt Rock
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Posted: 16th Dec 2006 20:29
In terms of sprites, I'm thinking they could be used sparingly and more static... like, say you find an object, like a key or something, you could "pick up" the key, and the game would hide the sprite as soon as you did it. That might alleviate some of the corny factor, to a degree anyway. And I think the game could offer some interesting stuff in terms of interactivity. For instance, a CD player with a recorded message sitting in its tray. The player could hit the play button, hear the message, and then repeat the message if they wanted to.

Disk space will end up being the biggest technical hang-up... and it might be the only one really, since the game will be remarkably simple to develop in terms of programming. Tink brought up a great point regarding video being cheesy, and that's one of my two primary concerns with using video (that and the size issue). I'd like it if you could talk to someone in the game and have a few video options for the text. For example, you meet a scientist. If you use conversation option #1, there would be a video of his response for that option, then a different one for option #2, and so on. But that would make it extremely space-heavy, unfortunately . I dunno, maybe short video sequences could be used in another sense, like making an object animated. I'd love to have a scene where, say, the player puts a VHS tape into a VCR, and a video message plays on the TV (by playing the video as an MPEG or something and placing it directly over the image of the television set).

I also agree that it should be episodic. Maybe in the first game, you're just getting a grasp on the scenario, and as they go on, the plot can thicken and involve more characters and whatnot, all leading up to the grand finale, a proper 3D game made after the game has acquired an active fanbase. And the idea of marketing a game toward old ladies definitely has some appeal... we don't get to do that very often in this industry . I like this game more and more now, because it will be challenging from a design standpoint (how to keep it from being corny), from a technical perspective (how to keep the file size minimal), and from a marketing standpoint (how to reach a target audience that commercial games rarely go after). I'm definitely loving this concept so far


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Cash Curtis II
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Posted: 17th Dec 2006 11:44 Edited at: 17th Dec 2006 11:46
You could do all of that in 3d. Like I said, photo games are a thing of the past, and they were never any good to begin with. None of the imagination of text adventures, none of the interactivity of 3d, and corny acting.


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Wiggett
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Posted: 17th Dec 2006 13:48
night trap on teh sega mega cd, also the sherlock holmes adventure, and marky mark and the funky bunch adventure on the mega cd were similar. i still like the style though. oh also I think the x files game was like this.

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RUCCUS
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Posted: 17th Dec 2006 16:58
Its a cool idea, but hate to burst your bubble;

Its been done before

Still, itd be fun.

Matt Rock
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Posted: 17th Dec 2006 21:16
LOL Ruccus that was hilarious! Not exactly what I'm thinking though, this game will be static and will only use live action video in short bursts.

Quote: "None of the imagination of text adventures, none of the interactivity of 3d, and corny acting."

That's the ultimate test though: Make a game using static imagery blended with small doses of video to develop a truly unique and entertaining game. If I can pull that off, I'll earn my stripes as a game designer well beyond the two projects I'm doing now .

The key to the video is to use it sparingly, and only use good actors for it. In Night Trap and Psychic Detective (and all of the other corny games of that nature), the film director always seems to have treated it like a screwball B-grade comedy. They came of age during an era where games were still growing up, and people outside the game industry were still looking at games as though they were only for kids and couldn't accomplish anything serious. But I think this could be done, and done well. If I spend a considerable amount of time developing the characters and story, then the game could have a unique plot and a substantial level of seriousness. If I bring in proper photographers to shoot all of the stills (luckily I know a few), then the static assets could be high-quality. But video is the all-around bottleneck. I have a semester of cinematography and a subscription to DV magazine... hardly James Cameron or Steven Speilberg. But I think my brother's girlfriend studied cinematography in college and got farther than I did, so I could ask her if she'd work with me on this. And luckily, actors are a dime a dozen here... it's just a matter of finding someone who can do it seriously, who can actually get into their role for the few seconds they'll need to do it. Only shooting in short blurts could limit the time an actor might have to do something cheesy, and I'm sort of banking on that. In those games, the actors always seemed to either be trying to hard, or treating it like something they're doing to waste time. And sometimes they were acting in a way that they probably assumed would appeal to children. I'd like to take a modern go at it, both technically and intellectually


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Cash Curtis II
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Posted: 18th Dec 2006 02:11
You're going to put your team through a lot of work for no returns. I don't see the advantage of using photographs when you could do it in 3D. Modeling a realistic 3D environment isn't even hard.


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neilo
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Posted: 18th Dec 2006 02:11
Isn't this essentially QTVR (QuickTime Virtual Reality)?

Remember the old ST:TNG thing where you got to walk around and explore the Enterprise?
RUCCUS
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Posted: 18th Dec 2006 02:18
The way I see it...

Yes, it would be cool, and a fresh idea that hasnt been done much (to any large extent atleast) before.

However...

No, I dont think the idea would sell. Sure, programmers and the random person here and there might think the idea behind the game is interesting, but thinking in terms of gamers, I doubt many if anyone would buy it for more than a few dollars. And generally if a game only costs a few dollars, people are driven even more away from buying it. The only audience I can think of that would take a large scale interest in it would be those that were around in the times of MUDs and Text Adventures, which is a narrow niche to go after.

Either way, goodluck Matt.

Matt Rock
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Posted: 18th Dec 2006 03:04
I think what I'll do is I'll make a short demo just to explore the concept and see if I can do anything cool or unique with the idea. On paper, it seems cool, but if you guys think it won't fly, then maybe I should re-consider things a bit. I'll make a brief test game and distribute it with a little questionaire. It'll let me test the waters and see what can be done with such limited tools, and it'll also provide me feedback from the general public so they can see exactly what's in my head and tell me if I'd be wasting my time going further with it. I dunno, for some reason, it seems like a killer idea to me, in my head. But now there's a voice telling me I'll thank you guys for talking me out of committing an entire team and a few hundred dollars (gotta love indie production budgets!) to an idea that might just sink like a rock. If I make a demo at some point, something brief to showcase the still image and video concepts and how the sprites would be used, would you guys give it a whirl and let me know if it's worth serious commitment, and then answer some sort of questionaire that I'd write up for it?


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Cash Curtis II
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Posted: 18th Dec 2006 06:31
Well, take the STNG exploration game a while back. Basically what they did was go onto the set. They'd stand in a location, and take 360 degrees of pictures in that one spot. I forget how many exactly they took, let's say 100. Then they'd move a bit, and take the same amount of pictures. They did this all over the set. The result was a grid of pictures that allowed you to walk around the set.

You could do it yourself with a lot of time and an empty location with stable lighting. But I ask again, why? The end result would be inferior to 3D. Inferior because those same real pictures could be applied to level geometry for a truly dynamic experience. Inferior because you couldn't add any actors, effects, lighting, etc. Your level, that took you hours and hours and hours and hours of painstaking work would be static and unchangeable. The most you could do is Photoshop all 3 million pictures. With 3D you can just lightmap the level.

Perhaps, Matt Rock, you don't have confidence in 3D level design. Take a look at some of work around here. If 3D looks the same as photo realism, then photo realism offers absolutely no advantage.


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Van B
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Posted: 19th Dec 2006 08:43
So what you guys are saying is make it 3D instead, how startlingly original. I know lots of people who would be into this style of game. The way I see it, some people prefer more laid back games, and with still photographs there's absolutely no hurry at all.

Myth sold millions, in fact back in the day it was the biggest selling game of all time - that market has not simply disapearred, people just stopped making games for it.

I think there's a lot that could be done to make the graphics more commercially acceptable, using layer effects and transitions it could easily be as engrossing as yet another 3D environment. Just look at the DVD menu's in most modern horror movies, there's a lot of scope to freak people out in just 2D. Speaking as someone who's not long had to create lot's of realistic buildings, it's damn time consuming stuff - you have to consider backrounds and all the extra detail - a detective style game just doesn't need all that finery IMO.

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Cash Curtis II
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Posted: 19th Dec 2006 10:59
Menus can be great, but are static in nature. The menus in Madden 2007 are great, but if a game were made using the same layered 2d principle, it would stink.

Photorealistic games never did that well. I remember when they were being marketed. CD-Roms had just come out, and the market got flooded with them. I just don't see them being commercially viable, which makes spending time and money on such a project unwise. I love making video games, but the key to being successful in any art is to create things that are both artistically expressive and commercially viable. If you don't, then you won't be able to continue in the art indefinitely.


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indi
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Posted: 19th Dec 2006 17:09
I have two games from that style that keep me playing today,
DRAGONSLAIR
SPACE ACE
sorry but your not Don Bluth.
unless you have that artistic level its going to be pail in comparison.
I play dragons lair for the lizard king level which is pure artistic talent.
legend game
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/5/56/Dragonslair-arcadescreenshot.jpg

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Posted: 19th Dec 2006 19:33
What Van B proposes has been done. Its simple. The game is called Pheonix Wright: Ace Attorney for the Nintendo DS. The only difference between the DS game and what Van B proposes is the photo-realisticness of it all, and you cannot pick up items and move them around. Check it out, its an extremely fun game!

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Cash Curtis II
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Posted: 20th Dec 2006 09:25
indi - Dragonslair and Space Ace are not photorealistic games. Those games are made up of beautiful artwork.

The subject here is a strictly photorealistic game, made up of lots and lots of photographs.


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indi
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Posted: 20th Dec 2006 11:18
I would suggest the mechanics to photorealism point and click, myth and dragons lair /space ace to be very close. all of them require the player to move to the next scene or image.
yep i was deviating from the original concept, sorry.

what about photorealism with doctored images, that might be cool.
Imagine alien spaceships in the background or something as an example.

Matt Rock
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Posted: 21st Dec 2006 04:08
I dunno... personally, I would love to play a game like this, and I'd definitely buy it if one existed that were fun and had plenty of thought put into it. If this game were well-developed and plotted to perfection, I'll bet it could rival the fun-factor of 3D games. For the past few days I've been trying to see if anyone else has done a game like this, but with serious effort... it hasn't been done since the early 90's, and I agree with Van in that there's more than likely a market for it, albeit a small one. It just won't be marketable toward most gamers... the younger audience, for example, will be hard to approach with this style of game (and I'll bet less than 5% of the game's sales would be to people younger than, oh, 22-ish).

It's not a lack of 3D confidence, it's a lack of 3D artists. My team is split up between three different projects right now; a 3D adventure game that's been under development since the dawn of time (with four other fully-designed 3D projects lined up behind that one), a text adventure (mostly a hobby game but I think that's a market worth testing to a small degree), and last but not least, the 2D political fighting game. The 3D artists are "landlocked," as one of them puts it, developing assets for the 3D game. Capital Punishment is stuck because I need to find 1+ new caricature artist(s) to develop new characters, so the game is up-to-date politically (because most of it was done back in February & March '06 after Cheney Hunter, and a lot's happened since then). So at the end of the day, with the 3D game fully designed and awaiting assets before we can do more work on the engine, and the 2D game stuck until I find at least one more caricature artist... I'm bored and need a new project to work on, as is the rest of the team, who likes to e-mail me every few days to illustrate just how bored they are, with random bits of media designed to "inspire" me to get the ball rolling on something new.

I honestly think there's a market for this. It won't be even remotely close to the size of a 3D project, but I think there's quite a bit of ingenuity left in this completely abandoned market, and I'm willing to bet that if I make this game, fans of the style will find it, given time. I don't think it was abandoned because nobody liked it... I think it was abandoned because (A) there was no real originality in most of them that I've seen, just some people trying to make a fast buck, (B) the advent of 3D came around, and as Curtis points out, it's a lot easier to do 3D stuff that'll look better and be more interactive, and (C) time's eroded away the idea itself, and very few people today are even thinking about doing games like this. So that's my quest: figure out how to resolve A, B, and C to make the best darn game I can


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Swhale aka The FPS Creator
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Posted: 22nd Dec 2006 02:13
@ Matt Rock, buy a DS and Pheonix Wright and you'll get the idea.

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Tinkergirl
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Posted: 22nd Dec 2006 19:34
Phoenix Wright isn't photorealistic, it's more comic in style than real life photos - it's just a plain ole adventure with a novel resolution phase. It's a fun game, but not what Matt is talking about.

Jeku
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Posted: 27th Dec 2006 04:40
Quote: "I'd like it if you could talk to someone in the game and have a few video options for the text. For example, you meet a scientist. If you use conversation option #1, there would be a video of his response for that option, then a different one for option #2, and so on."


Noooo--- this harkens back to the awful CD-ROM adventure games of yesteryear. They were, as a rule, crappy.

Quote: "I honestly think there's a market for this. "


Yah, there was a market for this back in 1992 when CD-ROMs first came out. They were largely panned and people are trying to forget about them now. Myst is not a good comparison because it's not a series of photos, but there were games that are just as you say, Matt. Real locations, props & actors, etc. Honestly when I see full-motion video even nowadays in a game I cringe.

Matt Rock
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Posted: 31st Dec 2006 02:35
I'm starting to seriously consider dropping the video clip idea. So far everyone sounds turned off by that aspect, and plus there's the issue of file size, which I still haven't explored enough to really be pro-video. But I think I'm going to go forward with running up a test production with minimal assets to at least explore the concept a bit and see if there's any serious ground that can be covered using the technique. A part of me thinks that there's a lot of cool things that can be done in this pseudo-genre, but we won't really know until I get the test game finished. When it is, I'll post it in WIP for everyone's proper analysis


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indi
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Posted: 31st Dec 2006 07:34
5 hours of PAL/NTSC video 66 gigs
5 hours of PAL/NTSC 10 bit 516 gigs
5 hours of HDTV 1080i,50 10 bit 2,280 gigs
5 hours of 4k 4096 x 3112 px 19500 gigs

Matt Rock
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Posted: 12th Jan 2007 05:35
That's actually not as bad as I thought it would be, not for PAL video anyway. I could easily slap in about 15 minutes of total video without breaking the bank... but if everyone hates the idea it's still never going to get off the drawing board. I'll be experimenting in the next few weeks with the idea on my free time though and I'll explore a bit with video and see what people say about it... although I already know what's going to be said, lol.


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dark coder
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Posted: 13th Jan 2007 05:31
I remember playing a very old files game where you had to select the place to go based on pictures, I found the whole thing a bit tedious and frustrating though, as finding the place to click isn't allways that obvious, and navigating around isn't that easy, I would preffer a 3d game made to look photorealistic .

Phaelax
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Posted: 22nd Jan 2007 08:35
I've played a horror game with very similar game style. It was a long time ago and I don't remember the title.

There was also an old sega saturn game that used actual clips of power rangers for the fighting scenes.

Ruccus, that was great!

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Joined: 16th Jan 2003
Location: Mmm mmm.. Marmite
Posted: 19th Feb 2007 15:07
Hmm. Seems to me like a very cheap and easy way to make a point and click adventure.

Matt Rock
21
Years of Service
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Joined: 5th Mar 2005
Location: Binghamton NY USA
Posted: 21st Feb 2007 23:42
Nothing wrong with point and click adventures . They're easy to make and (for some people anyway) fun to play. This project is still on, I'm hoping to have a finished game ready for release by the end of this year, but I'm not sure where it's going yet or how long it'll take to get there.


"In an interstellar burst, I'm back to save the universe"
hessiess
19
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 30th Mar 2007
Location: pc!
Posted: 31st Mar 2007 20:46
mat rock, If you can match something like the quality of riven then you may stand a chance of selling it. why has there never been another game like riven?it was rilly good although a bit short.

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