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FPSC Classic Product Chat / Independent games - Are you making what the public really want?

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fallen one
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Posted: 24th Jun 2008 02:13 Edited at: 24th Jun 2008 02:21
Independent games, are you making what the public really want.
Don't be a parrot, learn to speak with your own voice.

In this thread I want to talk about what games people really want and what people may be making without being informed of the real market.

lets look at what games people are really playing, what people are really looking for, who the real market in games is, because what is being made to sell by the large corporations are not always the same thing, but one has to know what the media is, what it really is, what it means and what its purpose is, the majority of people believe the media is a random creation of culture creation created by random persona's or organisations, this is wrong.

Lets learn what the term media really means.

media, medium
(Latin: medium is the neuter form of the adjective medius, meaning "middle"; as well as, a neuter noun meaning, "the middle")

The transformation of media and medium over the years.

When medium was first borrowed into English late in the sixteenth century, it was used for "something lying in a middle or intermediate position".

Media (the plural of medium) is a transformation of the term "media of communication", referring to those organized means of dissemination of fact, opinion, entertainment, and other information; such as, newspapers, magazines, cinema films, radio, television, the World Wide Web, billboards, books, CDs, DVDs, videocassettes, computer games, and other forms of publishing.

So as we can see the term means, medium, now why should that reference be used. Well when we want to direct, or communicate an idea one has to broker that to the intended party, we can do that in person, or we can use a third party, lets imagine 3 parts, at the top we have the originator of the idea, or the originator of the intended effect, at the bottom we see the intended recipient of that idea or intention, in the middle we have the broker of that intent, this is the medium, the middle party that delivers the intent.

In our world, the originator of the idea or intent is the higher echelon of society, at the bottom is the masses, and in the middle we have the media, or the medium if you like, the elite use a broker to deliver the intent, and it is an intent as it is intended to have a desired effect on your actions or thoughts.

So, the medias job is to influence, and not just to make money or provide a service of entertainment, it does make capital, but that is not its sole aim, its aim is the communication to the masses below, it is the medium of influence, one important note to make, when one wants to speak to the dead one makes use of a special individual, this person is know as a medium.

Is our media, or medium speaking to the dead, is that how the masses are thought as, are they the real living dead.

When you know this one can stop copying what the media intends for our indoctrination, if you look at indie games, and lets stress that again, indie, independent, you will see a very wide variety of games with lots of individuality, lots of ideas and concepts, often very different than what the mainstream media presents to us, indie games do not focus on graphics, which interestingly the mainstream games do, graphics that need high end and expensive technology, the originators of these games and the hardware manufacturers are in bed with each other, they walk hand in hand, one hand washes the other, I think you get the drift, and I also think some of you have noticed how alike these high end games are, they all follow a narrow section of all the possible avenues video games take, indie developers don't have any trouble realising broad ideas in their games, but the big boys always follow the same path, the same script, and of course they should, the script is layed out, and is followed religiously, script comes from scribble, scribble is not the same as write or right, the scribbling scribes write their scripts, in ancient times this was done for the high priest or the reigning monarch, and passed down to the profane to follow blindly. The scribes still scribble the doctrines for the indoctrinated, only you don't have to follow it.

Once released from following, one can lead oneself. When one looks at what people are really looking for, what people are really playing, one often finds it is not the same as what is being promoted by large corporate entities, one finds that more people may look for card games, or word puzzles or whatever that game may be than may be looking for Farcry or whatever the latest fancy pants game is being marketed with millions of dollars. Do your own research, find out, just what type of games are people really playing, I mean really playing, you may be surprised at just what you find.

Being an independent developer means you are released from any ties, you can create what you want, or what the public really wants, not what we are told they want.

So what are you waiting for, be an independent developer, create your own culture, your own ideas, and create the games that the public is really looking for, not what we are told they are looking for. You may be pleasantly surprised at your new sales or download figures.

Evil Things Most Foulhttp://www.avantivitastudios.com/
Punk13
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Posted: 24th Jun 2008 04:08
Very nice bro

Slayer222
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Posted: 24th Jun 2008 04:23
Already wrote a small book about my storyline for the game I wanna make if I ever go ahead and get X10. Trying to stray away from horribly over-done cliché is always good IMO. The happy endings, black and white, bloom, etc.

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Gunn3r
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Posted: 24th Jun 2008 04:26
That's not a bad idea, Slayer. I think I'll write a book about Tristan Craft... Hmm... *heads off to notepad* Where to begin...


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Slayer222
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Posted: 24th Jun 2008 18:12
Start with a clearly evil force and a clearly good force fighting. Make sure it has a happy ending

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Gunn3r
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Posted: 24th Jun 2008 18:23
Nah... Too cliche...
Wait. I've got it.
What if I start with a clearly good force AND a clearly evil force fighting... It'll end in a happy ending. It'll be perfect!



Actually, I was just going to write out the game in book format.


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xplosys
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Posted: 24th Jun 2008 18:36
fallen one,

Good post and food for thought. Just to expound a bit on the large game developers... When you pump years of work into a game, and millions of dollars into advertising, you have a tendency to stick with what works, or what has been proven to sell. Part of the reason it sells is because of the media we are flooded with, true enough, but the developers and publishers fear to tread where no game has gone before due to the time and cost at stake.

Indy developers are not constrained by those cost or publishers who dictate what they will create. Of course, this leaves us to create alone and without a budget, but at least we're free to do as we please! LOL

Best.

Uthink
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Posted: 24th Jun 2008 20:51
It's always driven me nuts to see people asking how to do something just like Bioshock, Crysis, or Quake. It seems as though you should learn from those games, but go your own way. It's not like you'll do it better than Bioshock.

This also speaks to a comment I made in another post about WWII games. It's tired already. Give us something new. At the very least, pick a new war. And stop starting the description to a scifi game with stating the year. It may not sound like it, but I'm not criticizing people who do these things. I'm challenging them to do it differently. But also, let's not be different for the sake of being different.

I think there's a point where there are memes that seem to keep people creating the same thing. These same memes also tell you to like it. Kind of like pop music. Radio inundates you with a song until you succumb to liking it. Or at least tolerating it.

Don't dare to be different, dare to be yourself if that doesn't make you different then something is wrong.

"I'm trying to find new ways to make this game more attractive." - Dennis Rodman
KISTech
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Posted: 24th Jun 2008 21:09
@fallen one,

Good food for thought. I've always found it ridiculous to wait outside a store for 10 hours (or more) for a new game to be released, but I know that those situations are created by the media hype. Sure they spent millions on the development of the game, but they've also spent millions on the media campaign to get all the hard core gamers hyped up about it, and to get the other gamers to become hard core. Thus they are able to make back their millions in the first few weeks of sales. If I like a game I'll go rent it from Blockbuster. If it's any good I'll wait a year or two until they're on sale or in the used game shops. No sense paying $60 for that game you'll only play for a month or two if you can get it for $30 in a few months and then trade it in for $10 towards the next one you want.

I for one am actually tired of First Person Shooters. All the scenarios seem to be the same thing redone in better graphics as the technology improves. In fact many game genres seem to feel that way. So many things have been done, and redone, and redone.

The indie developer has the unique position to tread where the big boys fear to go. They don't want to invest millions into uncharted territory. So they stick with what they've got that has worked. That leaves us indies with an open playing field for coming up with our own genre, and I love that feeling.

So what's it going to be? Who will come up with the unique ideas for a totally new genre of game?

Ezykeyal
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Posted: 24th Jun 2008 21:10
Good topic and you are so right Uthink.
The people's minds have been poisened or has it?

Perhaps it has something to do with the lack of creativity and the average age buying FPSC without any game technology knowledge whatsoever and thinking they can make the next Half-Life with a few clicks.

If there is a game out there that you love so much and inspires you, I do understand you want to create something similar, and here is where most fail... the creativity part.

You can NOT just think anyone can make a game just like that, it does require the creativity skill.
You need twists and turns, originality, believability if you want to create something spectacular.

I'm a graphics person myself and I tell thee, it comes second.
If good graphics aren't supported by a good solid game/gameplay it is forfeit and you get all the trash that everybody is producing nowadays.

It is quite rare to find a good game nowadays because most companies focus on getting their "next-gen" technology cranked out (I hate this next-gen crap).

Think of something original, forget reality and forge your own universe.
Take reality and give it your own twists and turns, think to yourself "But what if?".
There are no limits until you set them yourself but combine it with believability.
Think outside of the box and don't let "settings" i.e. Sci-Fi/WWII limit you.
fallen one
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Posted: 24th Jun 2008 21:16 Edited at: 24th Jun 2008 21:19
Why not make a game that's relevant to you, what you feel, what you see, what you imagine, not someone else's.

imagination

image-ination

image initiation

Image
A physical likeness or representation of a person, animal, or thing, photographed, painted, sculptured, or otherwise made visible.

Form - appearance; semblance

Psychology - A mental representation of something previously perceived, in the absence of the original stimulus.

Initiation
Initiation is a rite of passage ceremony marking entrance or acceptance into a group or society. It could also be a formal admission to adulthood in a community or one of its formal components. In an extended sense it can also signify a transformation in which the initiate is 'reborn' into a new role.

A spiritual initiation rite normally implies a shepherding process where those who are at a higher level guide the initiate through a process of exposure of knowledge. In the context of ritual magic and esotericism, an initiation is considered to cause a fundamental process of change to begin within the person being initiated. The person conducting the initiation (the initiator), being in possession of a certain power or state of being, transfers this power or state to the person being initiated.

So now we understand the word imagination, and how powerful it is as a tool when one engages the imagination of others.

So I ask the question, are you making games on your culture? or on someone else's culture they have given to you? Is it your image initiation, or the image initiation of somebody else, and you are working as an effective parrot.

Culture creation business, who owns that business, is it you?
are your thoughts your own, or are they given to you, catered to you, to what ends ask yourself.

Own your own culture, your culture creation is your business, not someone else's. Use your own imagination or as we know it image initiation to your audience to direct your own message.

Evil Things Most Foulhttp://www.avantivitastudios.com/
Slayer222
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Posted: 24th Jun 2008 21:38
Quote: "So what's it going to be? Who will come up with the unique ideas for a totally new genre of game?"
I WILL! Or it'll be different. But a new Genre, no, too hard with FPSC

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Black Rebel Heart
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Posted: 24th Jun 2008 21:47
I got lost in the first post. tl;dr summary=write a book about your game?
Uthink
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Posted: 24th Jun 2008 21:52
You've got to have a strong personality. Because all that you do will be harshly and hastily judged. There are many who will mock you. I just recently looked up an old-school programmer who was king of adventure gaming back in his day. He list one of his current projects being related to the bible. My first thought was, ewww! But why wouldn't that work? There's no reason that such a thing couldn't be good and fun?

Speaking of old-school. As George Clinton once said.."Free your mind and your (fill in the blank) will follow!"

I would love to see a new era of creativity come out of simple tools like FPSC. I think it would encourage and inspire. I've been quietly pursuing a concept that I think challenges every stereotype. My skills aren't where they need to be, but all artist have to start somewhere. And yes, I would love to consider the creation of games as art. Not just the creation of game media. I know it's hard since most programmers are left-brain heavy. But we know logic and creativity are not mutually exclusive.

"I'm trying to find new ways to make this game more attractive." - Dennis Rodman
KISTech
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Posted: 24th Jun 2008 22:10 Edited at: 24th Jun 2008 22:11
I wonder how many indie game developers are left-handed...

Left handedness lends to being more right-brained..

[edit]
I'm a leftie.

Uthink
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Posted: 25th Jun 2008 04:21
I'm a lefty!

The part I don't get is that people say that being right-brained is where I get my music from. And yet there's the whole math and music connection. But isn't math a left brain thing?

"I'm trying to find new ways to make this game more attractive." - Dennis Rodman
KISTech
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Posted: 25th Jun 2008 16:00
Quote: "But isn't math a left brain thing?"


I believe it is, however most good programmers are also pretty good at math. Interestingly enough, I'm a fairly good programmer, decent at math, but couldn't play an instrument to save my life. I have an ear for music and can tell when something is out of tune even when others can't. I just can't play anything. (which I find very irritating because I want to...)

Uthink
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Posted: 25th Jun 2008 16:50
Deep down, we're all frustrated with what we can and can't do.
I guess that makes independent game development appealing. At
least you can go at your own pace, and in your own direction!

"I'm trying to find new ways to make this game more attractive." - Dennis Rodman
Toasty Fresh
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Posted: 27th Jun 2008 06:34
I suck at maths. Seriously, It will take me about 5 minutes to figure out 6x9.

Nickydude
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Posted: 27th Jun 2008 10:06
Quote: "I'm a lefty!"


As am I.

daarboven
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Posted: 28th Jun 2008 01:19 Edited at: 28th Jun 2008 01:22
If it's lefty coming out time, i'm in the club. I mouse lefthanded, paint and draw and use all tools (righthanded automatic saws keep frightening me a bit) and i used to suck at math in school but kicked myself into it lateron since i learned to write actionscript and *had* to come over that math thing....but i would always say i'm more on the creative side of the brain

**not to let this thread choke on off-topicness: these are some good thoughts on independent game development and the chance that lies in making yourself independent of the media also, since as an indie you better start a hype than follow one

I am Jacks complete lack of surprise.
electric chihuahua
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Posted: 29th Jun 2008 20:55
I'm lefty too. I think you will find a lot of us here are. This is definitely an outlet for creative people who like to do it their own way. We just happen to want to create our own worlds and our own adventures as our art medium. The difficulty in making a game, especially on your own is that we aren't just using one medium, but all of them. You have to be creative in 2D art, 3D art, writing, music etc. Even when we use tools like FPSCreator it makes it easier, but you still have to use your imagination and energy. Over time it becomes difficult to stay focused. I think most games don't get completed because of the energy and enthusiasm it takes to create our own unique world. It is hard to maintain it long enough to finish even an effective level let a lone a stand alone game. I get caught all the time by getting too grandiose and not finishing what I start. My mind will wander to new ideas etc.
KISTech
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Posted: 29th Jun 2008 21:44
Quote: "I get caught all the time by getting too grandiose and not finishing what I start. My mind will wander to new ideas etc. "


Same here. I attribute that (in my case) to having A.D.D.

I seem to be doing much better on this project though. 18 months and I'm still right on track. A little behind due to life getting in the way, but still on track.

fallen one
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Posted: 30th Jun 2008 09:24 Edited at: 30th Jun 2008 20:40
Quote: "Same here. I attribute that (in my case) to having A.D.D."


A.D.D. is that a codeword for thinking for yourself, be careful the State has drugs for that, individuality is a sin, collectivity is the way, like the Borg in Star Trek, hmm what do they call it now politically, ahh yes, interdependence - its the cure for self dependence, I like the way it sounds, inter dependence, in to dependence, sounds a bit like, internet, in to the net, get in the net my little fishies, I'm watching you, yes interdependence, like the new age religion ideas, same goals, same planners , just a different branding, "we are all one, reality is an illusion, we are all one" a manufactured herd mentality, sheeple, like I said, original thought is an original sin, you will need some drugs for that A.D.D from a doctor, to doctor, to change something, science the new priests for the new religion of the 21st century, science from séance (pronounced /ˈsay-ons/) an attempt to communicate with the dead, well this is what my muse told me anyhow.

So to conclude please don't question the new priests (scientists) of modern times, they are experts and experts are beyond question.

Let me try it out. News flash, one should always think for oneself, said experts in a report today. Hey it works, I said experts said, that means one cannot question. Hey this really works. Let me try another. There are lies, dammed lies and then there are statistics. 87% of game creators do not use there own imagination or own thoughts when creating their games, experts say they parrot the ideas of the culture creation industry, thereby bypassing original thought, said experts in an official study. Hmm, not bad, I think I'm getting the hang of this. They say sarcasm is the lowest form of wit, I think the expert was wrong, my brainbox tells me it is merely the most fun said experts just now.

Evil Things Most Foulhttp://www.avantivitastudios.com/
KISTech
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Posted: 30th Jun 2008 23:50
Hmm.. Interesting.

Definition of "Expert" (ex-spert)

ex - Has been.

spert - A drip under pressure.



fallen one
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Posted: 1st Jul 2008 01:23 Edited at: 1st Jul 2008 01:41
For spurting look at the word yahweh, some may think the word is a name for a creator, but ill give an overview of its proper usage, lets see it being used, in the beginning yahweh made the universe, or words similar, yahweh means when something is being held back and the pressure grows and then one lets go of the pressure, like when one puts your thumb on the end of a running hosepipe, when you let go and the explosion comes forth, well that is yahweh, its usually put in context of the sexual release, now you get a new look on the universe being created with a big bang. So Id put your words like this, ex being without, and spurt, lets use the yahweh meaning, so perhaps we could look at it as being without god, so one in essence becomes god oneself when one is an expert, one is the expert and follows no one, one becomes as a god. I cant verify that, I'm just playing around with terms, but I rekon Im on the money with that guess. There was a video game galled, Deus Ex, Deus means God, I'm not sure if ex means former or without, so the meaning is without god perhaps, ie you are the new god, you have become god. The same meaning as my idea on expert, perhaps.


Lets have a game, lets see who can come up with original game ideas and not copy the established media.
Counter culture, can you do it? lets see what you can come up with.

Evil Things Most Foulhttp://www.avantivitastudios.com/
Plystire
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Posted: 1st Jul 2008 03:10 Edited at: 1st Jul 2008 03:10
Here we go again. Stay away from the norm and blah blah blah, get your own ideas, think it through, etc etc

Okay, got it...


That post was stupid! How about, instead of listening to you, I'll do it my own way, thank you very much!


(Yes, that was meant to stay away from the "normal" response. )


The only and one,


Whosoever says, "Don't sweat the small stuff," is obviously not a programmer.
fallen one
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Posted: 1st Jul 2008 04:12 Edited at: 1st Jul 2008 04:27
Quote: "Here we go again. Stay away from the norm and blah blah blah, get your own ideas, think it through, etc etc

Okay, got it...


That post was stupid! How about, instead of listening to you, I'll do it my own way, thank you very much!


(Yes, that was meant to stay away from the "normal" response. )


The only and one,
"


You can delete those big spaces in your post if you like, theatrical pauses are for actors in the theatre, or politicians, I always say politics is show business for ugly people, actors like politicians both have there scripts written by other people, and the bottom line is they are both paid essentially to fabricate a reality, that's a nice way of saying, telling lies. So I ask people who writes your script?

Quote: "That post was stupid! How about, instead of listening to you, I'll do it my own way, thank you very much!"


Doing it your way means doing it my way, you see doing it ones own way is what Ive said, over and over, do it your way, but is it your way to the point, are your sure it isn't someone else's, a parrot repeats the words or thoughts of others, so I ask the question, what are your thoughts, can you do it your way, are you able? Who are you really listening to, really, yourself?

Quote: "Yes, that was meant to stay away from the "normal" response."


No, it was the normal response, you was following the program, you followed the correct subroutine I expected.

Evil Things Most Foulhttp://www.avantivitastudios.com/
TZap
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Posted: 1st Jul 2008 15:10 Edited at: 1st Jul 2008 15:12
Best advice I can give is do one level and let friends/relatives and their children try it out. The children could also take it to college/school for others to play-test. Also sometimes their money won't stretch to a £20+game so something cheaper might be good if you are thinking of selling the full version.
Uthink
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Posted: 1st Jul 2008 22:00
Truth be told, unless you just do a run-and-gun game (which is just a 3d arcade game) you will need a story, and most stories are just going to be good vs evil. So the whole being original can be a trick question because I've no doubt that you could pick apart someone's game and say, "That's just a Diablo meets Haze.

Being a musician I run into this all of the time. People will say, hey that sounds like Peter Gabriel with a little Alanis, some Collective Soul, and a hint of Kate Bush. Maybe it's just human nature to try to associate things with what we already know. That's why it's so difficult for new ideas to succeed.

Look, we know there are a bajillion zombie games. That doesn't mean don't make one. Just make a game that's you, not a game that is you copying another game. If it turns out that it looks and sounds like something already out there, so flippin what. Suum cuique! Res ipsa loquitur!

The saddest thing I see is someone being goth without knowing what goth is about. Being punk without knowing what punk is about. Being different just to be different is actually what a lot of people are doing. What I like about this thread is that it reminded me of how much freedom I really have with my game as an independent developer. The bad part is...I also realize how much work I've yet to do!

"I'm trying to find new ways to make this game more attractive." - Dennis Rodman
fallen one
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Posted: 2nd Jul 2008 09:46 Edited at: 3rd Jul 2008 06:11
Quote: "you will need a story, and most stories are just going to be good vs evil."


Good and Devil you say, why not evil vs good, but do we have to be that evil, what if I'm not up to it, can I just be a little bit bad instead, I don't think I'm ready for the full evil commitment at this moment in the relationship.

The big wigs steer the bad ship social opinion to the destination of moral relativism, there is no bad or good, it is only good or bad relative to who it benefits or hinders, not my views, In my world there is an absolute truth, I forgot to get my passport to the port of nihilism, didn't fancy visiting that place anyhow, always looks so grey and meaningless, I like my world back and white, good or bad, right or wrong, pick a side, what are you waiting for, plenty of places on the chess board of life.

Evil Things Most Foulhttp://www.avantivitastudios.com/
Uthink
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Posted: 2nd Jul 2008 18:32
Good vs Evil, Evil vs Good. They mean the same thing. It's really about overcoming obstacles to reach a goal. Whether it's truth you seek, or a boss to kill. Games provide obstacles. The amusement is from the challenge. For some, they just seek victory.

I suppose you could make a game with an empty level. When enough time passes, tell the player she/he has won! Now you've got a game without purpose, and worthy of the port of nihilism. However I suspect that few would play such a game. But then again, I'm no pundit.

"I'm trying to find new ways to make this game more attractive." - Dennis Rodman
Ezykeyal
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Posted: 2nd Jul 2008 20:51
Mny wil play such games because that's as far as the general intelligence level of most reaches.

Good, evil... they are both human concepts and if you think within such simple bounderies, it will be the same as anything else invented hundreds of years ago.
KISTech
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Posted: 2nd Jul 2008 21:33
Good vs. Evil is also a matter of perspective.

Take any given war and the people on either side typically thought of themselves as Good and the other side as Evil.

Some of the most successful games of recent years have been ones that let you pick a side. Granted most still made the distinction between Good and Evil for you, but at least you got to pick.

Plystire
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Posted: 2nd Jul 2008 23:37
@fallen one:

You lost my interest around the politics speech.

I never actually read your first post, so I can't really be taking your advice. I've seen these types of threads made over and over again, so I already know the message you're trying to portray. It's been over-done and by making another one, you thusly have ignored your own advice and are repeating the actions of others, removing yourself from the desired "abnormal".

Congratulations!


The one and only,


Whosoever says, "Don't sweat the small stuff," is obviously not a programmer.
Ehetyz
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Posted: 3rd Jul 2008 01:51
I've been lurking around this thread for a while now, and now I thought I'd say a few words.
(I've been awake for 24hrs now, so if my text makes no sense, I can blame it on that)

I'm not going to get into the gameplay part. What caught my interest is the good/evil- and storyline perspective. I'm a sucker for a good thought-provoking story, and being a moviemaker, I could say I'm also a storyteller myself. So, from this perspective, I'd say that the average (Commercial, full-price) game has a storyline that's less compelling than the ones you see in Steven Seagal movies shot in Romania in 12 days. We have press touting that GTA4 is the Godfather of games; no it ain't. Remember those b-grade wannabe-tarantino crime movies that came after Reservoir Dogs? That's GTA4.
And the lower the production values in the games, the worse it gets (generally). I played Timeshift, and it had no plot at all. There were story scenes, yes, but there was no plot. I doubt there even was a script.

What I don't understand is; why? Writing a proper story to a game is a lot cheaper than writing the code for, say parallax mapping. And which one are people more likely to remember?
But enough about big commercial games; The story discussion about them is something that has been going on since 1997 for what I remember, probably longer.
I think many of the rules that apply to indie filmmaking, apply to indie games as well. One of them, the sacred one for me, is that you're free to do what you like. In movies, I don't need to care about censorship or if the editing's flashy enough; I can do my own thing. Same with games; I don't need to make the player the new Master Chief, and I don't need to make an epic fight of good vs. evil. In my current game, the player is a lone survivor who's exploring a post-apocalypse world overrun by zombies; there's no true evil, and you're not playing as a supersoldier.

Where I see freedom of expression, I also see opportunity. How about actually inducing emotions? Or having real social commentary? How about, instead of making player feel good, make him feel like crap? Have the player be the bad guy, or have him fight a battle where defeat is inevitable. I read about a game idea, that was like Call of duty 4, but instead of being all heroics, player was forced to execute civilians of certain nationality etc. That sounds like it would make you feel sick, doesn't it?
Most of the people making FPSC games are working with no budget. So, they don't have a 10 million dollar production budget to lose, or a guy in suit telling them how to make a game that attracts the teenage boy crowd. So, you won't actually lose anything if you take decide to tackle something fresh instead of the "space marine saving the world" -romp. Find new angles, break a few taboos! How about fighting as the Germans in WW2. That would be a change. Or making a scifi where the humans are the bad guys?
Of course, to really have an impact you need write good dialogue and characters as well. That's where many seem to fail; let's face it, we're not all renaissance men who know how to do everything from modeling and programming to writing stories. But there are good, and even great storytellers, on these very forums, and around teh internets (sorry, I had to). I'm sure a lot of them would love to write a storyline for a game.

If it's a fresh one.

Now if you'll excuse me, I'm gonna go and watch Mean Guns for the 12th time.



-Astek Games Developer-
fallen one
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Posted: 3rd Jul 2008 06:08 Edited at: 3rd Jul 2008 08:51
Quote: "I never actually read your first post, so I can't really be taking your advice."


There's none so blind as those who choose not to see.

Quote: "I suppose you could make a game with an empty level. When enough time passes, tell the player she/he has won! Now you've got a game without purpose, and worthy of the port of nihilism."


I love that, that's very funny. That's what I want to hear, really out of the box stuff, It wont sell, but its original, its thinking for oneself, you have asked a question, do we have to do anything in the game, does it need a meaning, I know it wont sell and no one will play it, but its original thinking.

Scary maze game, do a search for it, or watch people play it on youtube, the game has 1,245 searches every day, now how many people have played that, is its premise a regular game or something else. I'm not saying make that game, I'm just drawing attention to thinking out of the box, look how many people have played that, and how many people have played the fpsc - BOTB games list.

And I'm going to have to check out that Mean Guns film also, looks interesting.

Evil Things Most Foulhttp://www.avantivitastudios.com/
Uthink
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Posted: 3rd Jul 2008 18:20
Quote: "Writing a proper story to a game is a lot cheaper than writing the code"

So true. The story is the foundation. Put some time in it, and you'll have a solid house with all types of possibilities. If you don't, it may just be something pretty to luck at, but horrible to live (play) in.


Quote: "In my current game, the player is a lone survivor who's exploring a post-apocalypse world overrun by zombies; there's no true evil, and you're not playing as a supersoldier"

You're kidding right? Zombies? No true evil? I doubt that your zombies are helping stranded women change flat tires.

I haven't seen "I am Legend". But I have seen "Omega Man". (Hey, I'm a sucker for old movies) And in either case, you had zombies and a normal man fighting them. He doesn't need to be a priest or Supersoldier to represent good.


Quote: "Of course, to really have an impact you need write good dialogue and characters as well. That's where many seem to fail"

Very true. The tough thing is that we're all here to make our own games, not help others. At least that's the obstacles I personally face. I actually do have a small budget and some backing. But the good folks here are too busy. But enough of my whining. lol

"I'm trying to find new ways to make this game more attractive." - Dennis Rodman
Uthink
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Posted: 3rd Jul 2008 18:35 Edited at: 3rd Jul 2008 18:37
I jumped in this thread and talked about Good vs Evil (Anyone remember the SciFi channel series?) Anyway, I was really saying that most games follow that route. But I want to be clear. Games are about goals and providing obstacles to the player. That is what we have in common when creating an FPS.

That being said, you can make a nihilistic game. But in doing so, you wouldn't be a nihilistic person. Telle est la vie!

On the X10 board that Nickydude started, I made a post asking "How serious are you?" I wanted to know who really just likes tinkering around with X10, and who was really trying to make a serious game and put it out there. I didn't get much of a response. Granted, not many people visit that board. But I wonder if people aren't ready to admit that they really aren't going to do much?

Back to taking advantage of independence. I think the median age here is low enough that most are just trying to find their way, and don't really have much to say. So we won't see much that's out of the box. But if you can combine originality with quality, I've no doubt that you will experience some level of success. Maybe Andy Warhol was right? Hope I haven't used up my 15 minutes already!

"I'm trying to find new ways to make this game more attractive." - Dennis Rodman
Ehetyz
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Posted: 3rd Jul 2008 21:23
Quote: "You're kidding right? Zombies? No true evil? I doubt that your zombies are helping stranded women change flat tires.

I haven't seen "I am Legend". But I have seen "Omega Man". (Hey, I'm a sucker for old movies) And in either case, you had zombies and a normal man fighting them. He doesn't need to be a priest or Supersoldier to represent good."


No, I'm not kidding. Of course they're not good, per se, but they're not true evil either. It's one basic part in Romero mythology; the zombies are victims, not monsters. I mean, yeah, there are horror movie monsters that are tragic, like Dracula, but the original concept of zombies takes the tragedy even further; these are ordinary humans reduced to an animal-like state, with only very little brain functions left; they grasp on the few memories they have of their past life as they slowly rot away. I'm trying not to make Resident evil zombies, but instead creatures that are both pathetic and dangerous at the same time.

The main character in the game is not a scientist/fighting survivor like in Omega man (LOVE that movie btw); he has survived only because he hid in an underground on the first sign of trouble, leaving his family and friends outside to die. He's a terrible shot, and the only reason he gets out of his bunker in the first place, is because he's running out of fuel. There is a fleeting sense of good there; searching for survivors, he's also seeking redemption. But it's more Bad Lieutenant than Omega man

(Making all this apparent with just FPSC would be pretty much impossible; that's why I'm planning on shooting FMV cutscenes for the game as well...)

But enough about that... I do agree with your latest post 100% BTW



-Astek Games Developer-
Uthink
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Posted: 4th Jul 2008 03:14 Edited at: 4th Jul 2008 03:14
I guess we're on the same page. I've just spent about 4 hours on the script for a 90 second cutscene. At this rate I've got a solid 6 months of cuscene work ahead of me. Ack!

Anyway, my theory is that if you describe a character, the last adjective you use is the dominating trait. So if you say innocent, good evil guy. Then he's evil. If you say backstabbing slimey good woman. Then she's good. It's a bit simplistic, but red pepper is pepper. Black pepper is pepper. White pepper is pepper. Each a bit different, but they serve the same purpose.

Glad to see someone else putting some time and effort into making a story to back up their game.

"I'm trying to find new ways to make this game more attractive." - Dennis Rodman
electric chihuahua
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Posted: 4th Jul 2008 07:25
I have to say that there is nothing wrong with drawing inspiration from your favorite games, movies, music etc. If you are a horror game fan, you probably want to make a horror game. It's what you do in your own way that makes it unique.

Painters study and practice imitating the styles of people whose work they enjoyed. Over time their own unique style emerges. It's inevitable.

Same with making a game. You find elements, story, puzzle etc. in a good game that you thought were cool. How could you do it different? What would you liked to have seen happen that would change things better? These are the questions that help you find your unique style and make it your own.

Again I say there is nothing wrong with being inspired by the work of others.
fallen one
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Posted: 4th Jul 2008 10:38
If you want horror why just look at horror films.

Ive just been looking at William S. Burroughs "The Bunker"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=58T3m1ovla4
In the film he is thought of God and people are phoning him with confessions of sins, I find some of the phone calls quite shocking, because they are real, horror can be a little camp, all monsters and fangs and a bit of silliness, the core concept being mostly what our primitive ancestors was afraid of, being hunted murdered and or eaten, to modern people it lacks a lot of relevance really, I mean they are fun, don't get me wrong, but we can paint with broader paint strokes.

Ill throw a little curve ball in, do you remember that free online video game where you had to recreate the assassination of JFK, it was all over the net and on TV. A little controversy and bamm, major news coverage. Like I said, doing things different gets a lot of coverage.

There are lots of new ways of doing things, controversy gets attention, but there are others.

Evil Things Most Foulhttp://www.avantivitastudios.com/
Uthink
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Posted: 4th Jul 2008 17:45
Inspiration good, copying bad.
I've seen a lot of post asking "How can I make xxx just like xxx in Quake?"

Granted, some people copy to learn how to do things. It's like the proverbial "Hello World" program. When you take on a new computer language like Aldor or Python (Whatever is new to you). It's customary to do a Hello World app just to get the feel of the IDE and compiling etc.

That being said, a game should be evaluated on the whole. Not by a single unit. It's not fair to say, "Hey this game has guns, Crysis has guns, this game is just like Crysis." lol

"I'm trying to find new ways to make this game more attractive." - Dennis Rodman
Ezykeyal
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Posted: 4th Jul 2008 22:39
If you are going for the horror setting, take a deep breath and look deep inside of yourself.
What do you fear most?
What have you been tucking away since childhood?

I always found that a good way which opens often many original possibilities.

Then again most of you haven't even left childhood and one's fear might not be someone elses...
Uthink
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Posted: 5th Jul 2008 06:01
That would get an ESRB rating of AO. lol

"I'm trying to find new ways to make this game more attractive." - Dennis Rodman
Plystire
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Posted: 5th Jul 2008 11:52
Quote: "Writing a proper story to a game is a lot cheaper than writing the code for, say parallax mapping."


That all depends on who you're talking to.

I, for one, would have the coding done in less than a week. As for the storyline... that would take me a few months if I wanted it to be GOOD and enthralling to the player.


Face it, people, not everyone CAN write a good storyline, or even a mediocre one for that matter. Indie development is what broadens your own personal strengths. Whether it be programming, level designing, sound/music composition, graphical implementations/creation, or writing a story, each person has their own strengths and you cannot expect one person to do it all in an exceedingly exceptional display of grade S game design.

Many people out there, such as myself, may consider themselves to be a "Jack of All Trades", but guess what? It is that type of person that is commonly referred to as "User of Many, Master of None". If you are a jack-of-all-trades person, then you're going to be decent at a lot of things but be truely masterful at very little.

I gave up on game creation a loooong time ago when I realised that the road to bringing MY game ideas to fruition would be longer than a field where my own abilities will truely shine. Doing what I want, when I want, and how I want is the way I want to go. Indie game development is not for everyone. It certainly LOOKS like a great thing to get into, no doubt, but after really seeing what it takes to make your game stand out from the rest, it's going to filter out the game makers and the dreamers extremely well.


Shattered dreams aside now. Story or no story, it doesn't really matter. It seems that you fail to see that the story does not matter to everyone. Personally, I play Wii Sports and Mario Kart more than most any other game. Guess what? Neither have a storyline. I also play a boat load of MMOs. Regardless of the effortless storyline that many of them incorporate, it's not what attracts most of their population of gamers.
The way I see it, games are broken down into three categories that they orient themselves around:
1) Gameplay
2) Media
3) Story
Every game designer is shooting to fill all three of those categories for their game. Many fail miserably at this. Others simply decide that they'll just fill one or two of the categories and make them truely special without having to worry about the second and/or third.
The average gamer has less attention span than a bottle of mayo. They're not going to care about more than two of the above categories. Many gamers just want one of them to be filled. Some of them want two, and only a few want all of the categories. And by "want" I mean they will refuse to play unless their chosen category(s) are filled.
For the truely pathetic gamer, you can break down the above categories a bit further and many will be satisfied just to have a game where you kill people in it.
(In case you're wondering, I classify myself as the low attention span gamer who would soully like to have a game with "gameplay". )


Simply put, you cannot put so much emphasis on a signle feature of the game. If one aspect shines brighter than another then your game will look no better than a Neon sign in Vegas with a few bulbs burned out.


[/RANT]


The one and only,


Whosoever says, "Don't sweat the small stuff," is obviously not a programmer.
fallen one
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Posted: 5th Jul 2008 13:42 Edited at: 5th Jul 2008 13:46
Ill ad another to the list

1) Gameplay
2) Media
3) Story
4) psychological needs

Some games will apply themselves to number 4, lets look at some of these needs, tycoon type games, these are management games, they apply to the psychological desire to be in control, or say a game for psychological social needs, MMORPGS have this element, or some my combine two points together, the Sims is management and social, others apply to basic primitives desires or instincts, R-complex part of the brain, for example the desire to hoard, there are games where by one tries to amas things or conquer territory, its all the hording and dominance psychological need for those that play that type of game, some games focus on progression, RPGs do this with hit points, skills, progression in abilities and leveling up, a lot of games if one boils it down to the lowest common denominator apply to the desire to take control, very important in times when one feels less and less in control. So as we can see Games also apply to psychological needs, in fact Id say all games can be broken down to fulfilling a psychological need of some sort, even gameplay and story fit into this category, the media, number two is just the medium in which the need is fulfilled.

Hence I made a point in looking laterally at what that need or expression was, this is the starting block to look at why one produces the media, by looking at the need one fulfills for the consumer.

Evil Things Most Foulhttp://www.avantivitastudios.com/
xplosys
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Posted: 5th Jul 2008 15:55
Some very interesting conversation here. I think it's very possible to "over-think" the subject. Let me see.... what was the subject again? Ah yes, "Are you making what the public really want?"

And if you are, are you then thinking "outside the box" or are you just another sheep, following the crowd? Are you doing what you think will please, or are you pleasing yourself? And if you're pleasing your self, isn't that just another form of mental masturbation? LOL I digress.

Lucky for me, I have no dreams of riches and only play around at this for fun. Therefore I say make what you like and you'll never go wrong, even if it doesn't sell.

Best.

Fluffy
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Posted: 5th Jul 2008 15:56
Whoa these are some serious nuggets of wisdom.

Im just soaking all of this in


Carry on chaps>>>


You just wasted a few seconds of your life reading this signature!

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