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DarkBASIC Discussion / Hierarchy of limbs

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No Time To Code
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Posted: 20th Jun 2009 06:29
I'm trying to figure out how to set up the limb hierarchy for an object (3ds) created in Anim8tor. Alternatively, I could use DeledLite or Truespace 7.6 (although Truespace looks pretty confusing) or convert the object to .x format.

If this can't be done, is there anyway to save the hierarchy after using the DBC command LINK LIMB to set it up?

Thanks.
That1Smart Guy
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Posted: 20th Jun 2009 06:31
i believe the limb heirarchy is preserved with the save mesh command, but im not positive

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No Time To Code
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Posted: 20th Jun 2009 06:52
I don't see a SAVE MESH command in DBC. Are you referring to a save mesh command in Anim8tor?
That1Smart Guy
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Posted: 20th Jun 2009 07:11
........hmmmmmm I was sure there was one, well I guess im clueless then, lol

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Latch
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Posted: 20th Jun 2009 10:16
@No Time To Code
Though the limbs are saved, the hierarchy isn't preserved if I recall correctly in anim8or, or Deled. I remember having to write a custom app for anim8or to export animation and the limbs in Direct X, so I'm thinking the 3ds doesn't export with the parent child relationships.

Robert the Robot wrote an animation app in and for DBC. I'm pretty sure it will link, animate, and save you files. It's called
Lightning Limbs

Though in general, if you load your model into DBC, then link up the limbs, you can't (easily) preserve the relationships but you can preserve the animations by saving and loading them.

Once you link up all of the limbs, you can pose the model and set animation keyframes with:
Set Object Keyframe object number,frame

Then save the animation
Save Object Animation filename$,object

Whenever you load up your model, use
Append Object filename$,obj number,start frame

using the name of the animation file you saved; and the animation will play without you having to relink the hierarchy. This won't link up the hierarchy, but it will play the animations as if it were linked.

If your 3d modeling program won't export the hierarchy, you can program it yourself, but that would take some time. It's not impossible.

Enjoy your day.
No Time To Code
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Posted: 20th Jun 2009 18:08
I've tried Lighting limbs but I belive it requires that the limb hierarchy is already set up. It does allow some type of linking but I think it's just so you could move the child limb and it would effect the parent limb, not the other way around.

I'm modifing some code I found on the forum to make my own animation app. Per your suggestion Latch, I guess I will try to include the ability to link the limbs within the app, create the animation and then save the animation.

Thanks Latch and Smart guy!
Robert The Robot
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Posted: 20th Jun 2009 18:33
Did I hear someone mention Lightning Limbs?

I'm afraid that doesn't have any controls to set up the limb hierarchy, or save the data (a revised version is somewhere in the pipeline but at the moment I wouldn't hold your breath).

I haven't tested this, but if there is no limb hierarchy, then each limb is a child of limb zero - a 'root node' defined not by a limb, but by the object's position/rotation/scale. That's why the help files warn you about calling "Get Limb Rotation X()" and the like, when you specify limb zero.

What you need to use is the "Link Limb" command. If a limb is merely a 'child' of limb zero (i.e. if limb zero moves, this limb moves as well) then you can use this command to update the hierarchy and set your own links. This thread explains limb links pretty well.

This link takes you to a thread all about limbs, some of D Ogre's answers (quite far down, be patient) should explain basically all you need to know.

Hope this helps!

"I wish I was a spaceman, the fastest guy alive. I'd fly you round the universe, in Fireball XL5..."
No Time To Code
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Posted: 20th Jun 2009 19:12
Thank Robert. I'll take a look at that information.

Quote: "I've tried Lighting limbs but I belive it requires that the limb hierarchy is already set up. It does allow some type of linking but I think it's just so you could move the child limb and it would effect the parent limb, not the other way around."


Was I correct in describing what setting the parent/child relationship means in Lighting Limbs?
Robert The Robot
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Posted: 20th Jun 2009 19:20
Yes, you were right. At the time, Lightning Limbs didn't have a way of working out how the limbs were linked - I did come up with a routine that works out how the limbs are connected, but it never got implemented to the release version.

Anyway, this feature allowed you to set up links in LL so that when you moved (say) the lower leg, the upper leg would also move as well. It made creating a walking animation sequence very easy!

"I wish I was a spaceman, the fastest guy alive. I'd fly you round the universe, in Fireball XL5..."
No Time To Code
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Posted: 20th Jun 2009 19:29 Edited at: 20th Jun 2009 19:58
Great. Well if there was a way to set up the limb hierarchy in the 3d modeler I'm using (Anim8tor) I would be able to get more use from your program. As it is I'm trying to put some crude animation app together that will use the DB LINK LIMB commands, set the keyframes and save the animation. I'm sure those links you included will be helpful as I attempt to do this.

Thanks!
Brick Break
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Posted: 20th Jun 2009 20:01
I use Blender, and I know you can set the limb hierarchy just by selecting a couple limbs and pressing CTRL-P. Then you could animate it in LL. Maybe you should learn Blender...
Hope that helped!

No Time To Code
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Posted: 20th Jun 2009 20:10
I was kinda overwhelmed by Truespace 7.6 and, from what I've read, Blender has an even steeper learning curve.

Although, I guess I could use Anim8tor to create the object and then just learn enough Blender to use it to set up the limb hierarchy.

Thanks!
Robert The Robot
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Posted: 21st Jun 2009 13:56
Quote: "I was kinda overwhelmed by Truespace 7.6 and, from what I've read, Blender has an even steeper learning curve."

You're right! I managed to figure out some of the simple stuff in Truespace, but I never got my head round the animation commands. Blender was even worse, I couldn't find anything at all!

Quote: "I'm trying to put some crude animation app together that will use the DB LINK LIMB commands, set the keyframes and save the animation."

If you need any help on the animation side of things then just ask, I know most of the DBC Limb command set backwards.

Preserving the limb links you define could be a little awkward, though - you'd have to apply them when the object was loaded. The limb hierarchy is stored in with the limb's mesh data, not in the animation data. Your app would need to export two files - one containing the linkage data, and another containing the keyframe data.

"I wish I was a spaceman, the fastest guy alive. I'd fly you round the universe, in Fireball XL5..."
No Time To Code
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Posted: 21st Jun 2009 16:32 Edited at: 21st Jun 2009 16:33
Latch's quote
Quote: "Though in general, if you load your model into DBC, then link up the limbs, you can't (easily) preserve the relationships but you can preserve the animations by saving and loading them."


I'm more concerened with setting up a hierarchy to make it easier to move the limbs and create the animation data.

Quote: "Preserving the limb links you define could be a little awkward, though - you'd have to apply them when the object was loaded."


So I think I'll use the app to save the limb hierarchy as a data statement. Then whenever I want to create an animation file, I'll load the data into the app to create the hierarchy and then create the animation data. Once I have all the animations I need I'll just use them in the game and the fact that there is no "real" saved limb hierarchy wont matter.

I appreciate the offer of help and I'll take you up on it if I get stuck.

Thanks!
No Time To Code
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Posted: 23rd Jun 2009 04:28
Alright Robert (or any other kind soul), I need your help.

I've loaded a model (made in Anim8tor) that has 7 limbs. As far as I can see, they are not linked since when I move one limb, no other limb moves. I'm trying to set up the limb hierarchy using the link limb command. It's object 1 so to make limb 7 the child of limb 1 I'm using

LINK LIMB 1,7,1

I'm geting an error message "only unlinked limbs can be linked". Again, I don't see how their linked but is there anyway to unlink all limbs so I can then relink the way I want?

I know there are seven limbs in object 1 because I use the command:

perform checklist for object limbs 1

And it return the seven limbs with the names I used when I created them in Anim8tor.
Latch
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Posted: 23rd Jun 2009 06:28
You aren't going to be able to setup the hierarchy for the existing limbs. If I remember correctly, once you load a model, the limbs are considered linked, whether to each other or just the root limb (limb 1 in the perform checklist list). You can add additional limbs , say you created a new mesh, you should be able to add that as a new limb and then link it - but that doesn't really help you, or does it? I wrote a limb ripping program that tore the object appart and reassembled it for just this purpose in DBC, but you can do it without doing that (unless you're feeling ambitious!)

If you want to use anim8or, you might have to put yourself through the mill a little bit to get the hierarchy linked. The real solution is writing a custom export app or a script in ASL (anim8or script language). But here's a work around:

1. Design and texture your object in anim8or with each object or mesh being its own thing (limbs and such)
1a. Very Very important! You have to make sure the pivot point of each limb is at a joint and not the center of the limb. The pivot point is the position that the object will rotate around. To change this in anim8or, you have to go into point edit mode, then select all of the vertices for the limb in question, then drag all of the vertices to a position that leaves the pivot where you want it. I think that's how it's done, I can't test it right now.
2. Save each piece individually as it's own file. Arm.3ds, foot.3ds, brain.3ds etc.
3. Load each piece into DBC as an object.
4. Make a mesh out of each piece except the one piece that will be your main or root object.
5. Add limbs from each mesh to the root.
6. Link up your hierarchy of limbs
7. Delete all your meshes
8. Load each texture if you used one as an image.
9. Texture each limb

A bit long winded but it should work.

Enjoy your day.
No Time To Code
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Posted: 23rd Jun 2009 07:51
Quote: "I wrote a limb ripping program that tore the object appart and reassembled it for just this purpose in DBC, but you can do it without doing that (unless you're feeling ambitious!)"


I'm definitely not feeling ambitious, all I really want to do is get this modeling done so I can get to the fun part of coding the game!

Quote: "If you want to use anim8or, you might have to put yourself through the mill a little bit to get the hierarchy linked. The real solution is writing a custom export app or a script in ASL (anim8or script language). "


I'm not married to anim8tor, is there any other modeler you would recommend where I wouldn't have to put myself through the mill? I don;t think I'm ready for Blender and Truespace seems a little confusing as well. You mention the Deled doesn't preserve the hierarchy, what about Wings3D?

Otherwise, I believe I understand your instructions.

Quote: "1a. Very Very important! You have to make sure the pivot point of each limb is at a joint and not the center of the limb. The pivot point is the position that the object will rotate around. To change this in anim8or, you have to go into point edit mode, then select all of the vertices for the limb in question, then drag all of the vertices to a position that leaves the pivot where you want it. I think that's how it's done, I can't test it right now."


I tried changing the pivot point but I'm not really sure how to do it. I went into point/edit mode. Here I can choose all the points, edges or faces. I tried all three but I'm not sure how to drag them to a position? I think I'll be OK with the rest of your instructions but when you have a chance, can you elaborate on how to change the pivot point?

Thanks!!!
Robert The Robot
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Posted: 23rd Jun 2009 11:31
I could be mistaken on this (I don't have Anim8or with me at the moment so I can't test) but I think I know what Latch is getting at and there are two possibilities.

In your anim8or file for (say) the object's lower leg, you need to position that limb so that the knee joint is at 0,0,0. That way, when the limbs are linked in DBC and you rotate the lower leg, it will rotate about that limb's local axis (which is the same as the 0,0,0 you defined in Anim8or).

Now I'm not sure quite how best to do this. It might work if you just move the object around in Anim8or without going into point edit mode. If it does, then fine. If not, then try this:

Center the limb about the origin (0,0,0). Enter point edit mode and select all the vertices. Then use the arrow keys to nudge the object around. Don't forget to select your camera view (top, front, left, etc) depending on the axes you want to affect, or you'll find the limb moving in other directions - I've always struggled a little to get the hang of the movement system.

Hope this helps!
(And sorry about that Link Limb command, I thought it would work )

"I wish I was a spaceman, the fastest guy alive. I'd fly you round the universe, in Fireball XL5..."
Latch
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Posted: 23rd Jun 2009 11:49
Thanks RTR. I just was fiddling with Anim8or and actually found the pivot control. So No Time to Code here's how you do it:

When you open up anim8or there're a set of control buttons on the left of the screen. At the top of these control buttons are a group of 4 icons:

An arrow
An eyeball
An axis
And 3 dots

We are interested in the Axis. That is the pivot control. Like RTR said, the pivot is the point you want your limb to rotate around, like bending at the knee, waist, elbow, etc.

As a test try this:

Start Anim8or

1. Click on the top Arrow icon.

2. Add a sphere

3. Double click on the sphere and a dialog box will open up

4. Under Location, type 0 in the three boxes then click OK. That will put your sphere at the origin.

5. Click on the Axis at the top underneath the Arrow. That's the pivot control. For the test, make sure you are in Front view. You can change that by Left Clicking on the text in the upper left corner of the 3d grid view just below the menu. Choose 1View, and Front

6. The left panel should've changed as soon as you clicked on the pivot mode button. Now look for the button that has 4 arrows pointing up, down, left, and right. While in pivot mode, that's the move pivot button. Left click on it.

7. Now move the pointer to the sphere. There should be a small axis in the center of the sphere. While holding the left button, drag the axis towards the top of the sphere.

You have just changed the pivot of the sphere!

You can move it anywhere you want in any view.

Enjoy your day.
Robert The Robot
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Posted: 23rd Jun 2009 11:57
Oh! I rememeber seeing that months ago and I never figured out what it was for.

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Latch
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Posted: 24th Jun 2009 00:59
@No time

I should've tested the export before talking about pivots and what not. I can't tell if setting the pivot makes any difference on the export. The objects always seem to be relative to the origin. So you could probably leave out the pivot stuff in anim8or.

If I can find it, I'll try and post my conversion app that converts an anim8or file to directx with animation. But no promises.

Enjoy your day.
No Time To Code
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Posted: 24th Jun 2009 02:33
I was able to change the pivot in Anim8tor, which is good info in it's own right. I'll try to export them individually to see if I see any difference.

Well, if you can find your program that would be great. Meanwhile, maybe I'll give Wings3D a try. I'll also try a app to convert 3ds to .x. Maybe that will make a difference in how the limbs behave in DBC.

Either way , I learned a lot from this thread.

Thanks!
Latch
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Posted: 24th Jun 2009 02:37
And one other thing. Blender... That's the way to go.

Enjoy your day.
No Time To Code
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Posted: 24th Jun 2009 03:04
I heard it had a pretty steep learning curve but if I could just use it to set the limb hierarchy on an existing model, it might be worth a try.
Robert The Robot
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Posted: 24th Jun 2009 19:19
Quote: "I'll also try a app to convert 3ds to .x. "

Actually, DBC has a command to do that: "3ds2x InputFile$, OutputFile$". It gives an ASCII text file .x model, which might make it posible to edit the hierarchy manually in notepad.

I'm not sure about all the ins and outs of the x file format, but if you look at how the 3d mesh data is laid out you'll find that a child limb has its mesh data listed beneath the data for its parent, indented by a set of {} brackets. For an unlinked file, the limb data appears just one limb after another (each separated by {} brackets).

Off the top iof my head, I think it runs something like this:


That creates a limb linkage system of Upper Leg, Lower Leg, Foot. You can also do this to put (say) two feet on one leg:



Just a thought.

"I wish I was a spaceman, the fastest guy alive. I'd fly you round the universe, in Fireball XL5..."
No Time To Code
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Posted: 25th Jun 2009 05:08
Robert,

Thanks, I was able to convert to .x format. I understand what your saying but looking at the resulting .x file for my model, I think it's going to be a nightmare trying to bracket this data to achive the desired result.

I was able to use Latch's suggestion of exporting each limb as a separate object, convert to mesh, add limb & link limb. The only problem is once that is done, I dont know how to change the pivot point for the limbs so I can't position the limbs to create the animation frames.
Latch
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Posted: 25th Jun 2009 10:50 Edited at: 29th Jun 2009 20:04
So many work arounds! Your head must be spinning! Robert the robot's idea with the braces is good, but much more complex than one may think. If your meshes aren't laid out in the corect order in terms of the hierarchy from the beginning, trying to figure out Brace placement would be a nightmare. You'd end up having to move whole chunks of data around... It's possible, but very difficult. And to do it every time you create a new model...

Again, based on budget and quality, Blender is my suggestion (or a custom conversion script/app for anim8or). You can still create your model in anim8or and then link it up in blender. Or if you can get past the fear, model the whole thing in Blender. But let's crawl before we run.

Download Blender. Start Blender.
These instructions are based on Blender 2.48 :
1. In the upper left part of the screen, left click on
File > Load Factory Settings
Left Click on Erase All
This way I know what you'll be looking at

2. The cube in the middle should be pink. If it isn't, Right Click on it. Press X and accept erasing the cube. We just want to start with a blank slate.

3. In the lower left of the screen there should be another menu.
Left Click on View > Front This will set the 3d view to front view.

4. Left Click on File > Import > 3D Studio (3ds)
A file open dialog will appear. Click on the .. icon to move up a folder. Click on the Up/down arrow at the top left under the P to list all of your harddrives. Text in White are folders. Black text are files. Single Click your selections.

5. Find your 3ds file you built in animator. Left click on it and it's name should appear in the title box. Click on the button labled Import 3Ds. A small dialog should open with a box that reads Size Constraint 10. Left Click on the word Constraint. 10.0000 should highlight in red. Change the value by typing in 0.0 and press ENTER. Click on the OK Button and your model should load into Blender.

6. Press SHIFT+C (shift and the C key at the same time) That will center your view and bring the model into view.

7. If everything has gone according to plan, you should see your model with all of the limbs highlighted in pink. Tap the A key until nothing is highlighted (nothing is selected). Press the Z key to switch to Wire Frame shading

8. Just like we've been experiencing all along, the pivots of the limbs will all be at 0,0,0. We want them pivoting at joints. So let's get to it! Right click on any limb. It should become selected.

An axis will appear where the pivot for that limb is located. It will have a blue arrow and a red arrow. I find this a little bit distracting, so I'll tell you how to turn it off. Below the 3d grid, there should be a little hand button next to a triangle. The hand button should be recessed if the the big axis is appearing on screen. Left click the hand and the button will become unselected and the axis should disappear.

Now we can see the pivot point more clearly. It is the pink dot.

9. First, let's center the pivot relative to the limb. On the menu at the buttom of the 3d view window, left click on Object > Transform > Center New That should move the pivot to the center of the limb relative to it's own vertices.

10. You'll notice that there is what looks like a crosshair roughly centered in the middle of the screen. This is the 3d cursor. We are going to place the 3d cursor at the position on the limb that we want to become the new pivot. Left click on the limb where you want to place the pivot.

The crosshair (3d cursor) should have jumped to that position. Since we are in Front view, the cursor may look like it's positioned correctly, but we want to be sure it is correct in the other 2 dimensions.

11. Left Click on View > Top to switch to Top view and look to see if the 3d cursor is still centered where you want the pivot to be. If not, left click to place it where you want in this view.

12. Left Click on View > Side and take a look at the 3d cursor position. Line it up however you want. If you need to zoom in or out to get a better view, Tap the + or - keys on the numeric keypad. If you don't have a numeric keypad, then hold ALT+CTRL+Left Mouse Button and move the mouse.

Tap the C key to center the view at the 3d cursor. Press SHIFT+C to center the entire view and model - but if you use SHIFT+C, the 3d cursor will jump to 0,0,0 .

When you are done setting the cursor position, Return to the front view.

13. Now, with the 3d cursor positioned on the limb where you want it, Left Click Object > Transform > Center Cursor. The pink pivot dot should have moved to the 3d cursor. The pivot for the limb is now set.

Do the same thing for the rest of limbs, repeat steps 9-13 positioning the 3d cursor to whereever you want the pivot to be.

14. To test a pivot, while a single limb is selected, press the R key to go into rotation editing. Move the mouse around and you should see the limb rotate around the pivot. Press ESC to exit this mode without hitting any other keys so we do not inadvertently commit to a rotation we don't want.

Linking up the hierarchy
Now that the pivots are set, the goal was to link up the limb hierarchy. This is very easy.

1. Tap the A key until nothing is selected.

2. Right click on a child limb, hold the SHIFT key and Right Click on the Parent limb to that child. The child will be highlighted purple, the parent should be highlighted pink.

3. Press CTRL+P and left click on Make Parent to confirm.

4. Tap the A key until everything is deselected, then link two more limbs. Only do 2 at a time. And remember, a parent limb can also be a child. An arm for example would follow this set up in general:

select hand
shift select fore arm
ctrl p and the fore arm is the parent
Press A to deselect everything

select forearm
shift select upper arm
ctrl p and the upper arm becomes the parent
press a etc.

Continue until you link up the entire heirarchy.

5. After the hierarchy is created, We want to export the model to Direct X format. Tap the A key until all the limbs are selected. Click on File > Export > Direct X

6. Make sure the Swap zy button is pressed. Make sure the Flip z button is NOT pressed.

6a Click on the recalc no. button

7. Click on the Export All button and save the file with the x extension to the same directory as your original (make sure the textures are in the same directory as well)

Enjoy your day.
No Time To Code
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Posted: 25th Jun 2009 23:23
Quote: "So many work arounds! Your head must be spinning! "


No kidding!! I bought DBC thinking "I just want to learn a programming language and maybe make some games for my kids." I didn't think about all the time I would have to spend modeling objects to use in the games!

I really appreciate the time you spent typing up these instructions. I will download Blender tonight and get to work on trying to set up the limb hierarchy on my model. I'll let you know how it works.

As always.........THANKS!!!
No Time To Code
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Posted: 26th Jun 2009 05:08
SUCCESS!!!

Latch - You are a lifesaver, your instructions worked perfectly!

I got my limb hierarchy setup in Blender and and my model animated in about an hour. Now I can get started on the model I actually want to use in my game (this was just something I put together trying to learn how to use anim8tor). Maybe once I get more experience in modeling I'll try to use Blender to make the models but for now I know I can use anim8tor to create and Blender to setup the hierarchy and the pivot points.

Thank you Latch!!! (and everyone else who contributed to this thread)

Onward and upward!
That1Smart Guy
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Posted: 26th Jun 2009 05:50
[off-topic]
wow, nice rant latch, that may be the biggest non-code post ive ever seen!
[/off-topic]

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Posted: 28th Jun 2009 00:05
How do you use wings or anim8tor


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Latch
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Posted: 29th Jun 2009 20:11
Quote: "wow, nice rant latch, that may be the biggest non-code post ive ever seen!"

Looks into the mirror at his blood-shot eyes: "He might be right... " collapses into a heap.

Quote: "How do you use wings or anim8tor"

That's a bit too general of a question and there are mauals posted online that will describe how to use those programs in detail. The goal of this thread was to figure out how to link up a hierarchy using a model made in anim8or for use in DBC.

Enjoy your day.

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