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Okay so I'm posting a double thread but the other one was moved to the 3D chat before I could post FPSC in game screenshots and not a lot of FPSC users go there.So mods I kindly request that this one does not get move again or get locked.Pretty Please!!!

So I wanted to share the findings of building a level in a 3D model editor as well answer a few questions if there are any.

Well it can be done high polygon levels can be build in a 3D model editor.Not just that it doesn't even have to conform to normal meshes sizes like when using segments,it should just be able to be textured.

So in other words you could have a 400 unit mesh but with at least a 2048 x 2048 texture.

I have made a 13 thousand polygon level added entities and light mapping and the engine did not even whimper at loading the level.

Collision Detection works 100% that is only if you export each mesh separately.So in other words if you created 40 walls you should have 40 walls meshes in you export folder.

Having to export every single wall mesh may not always be necessary if they are low polygon and flat enough the collision should work fine.Higher polygon meshes MUST be exported individually and can't be grouped as they will cause problems with collision.

Other than that the sky is the limit or is that the engine.

This is not really a new method of doings things people have import levels from other level editors.

I have to date not seen any one trying to build a complete level in a 3d model editor.

It is not really hard if you understand your model editor well enough.

Culling causes no problems if you are smart enough to add doors to your level design.

oh something else your could even design your level around Fpscreator ready segment.

Are there any questions?

I will be uploading some screenshots as well as the level to have a look at it.

I hope the mods understand and will not give me too much grieve thanks

Some more screens








Here is the grouped mesh download

I do it all the time. I find it much faster and more convenient to work out the levels in [Blender] rather than put up with the drag-and-drop restrictions and work-arounds of segments, and 'illegal mesh lines', and so on. Here is one of my levels in Blender, and here it is in FPSC. I had a few collision problems here and there, but as you mentioned, all I had to do to fix them was break up some of the wall sections as seperate meshes.

Looks good by the way. How large is the level you have so far (grid-wise)?

Kravenwolf

i want to try this with mapscape, but placing doors and scaling it would be hard.

I was trying this with 3d World builder but i couldnt get textures t work in it :S I'll try with blender and see if that makes a difference

so your saying we can import our own levals into fpsc? i never knew this. i have been working with dark daisc pro for so long i never learned fpsc in and out. how is this done.

You create a huge object in a modelling software. Save it as an Xfile or dbo file, add a texture to it and open it in FPSC as a normal entity. You then add in things such as dynamic objects and zones later.

Lol paying attention in class was the subject you failed right?

Collision Detection works 100% that is only if you export each mesh separately.So in other words if you created 40 walls you should have 40 walls meshes in you export folder.

I make levels with 3dsmax always, i use fpsc just for small things...and dynamic things...


Isnt very new....

Even though the methodology isn't new; it isn't used much either (unfortunately). I've seen Max, Sketchup, 3D World Studio, Blender and now Softimage used to import levels into FPSC. I think it's great!

I'd like to see some actual games/demos put forward for the BOTB; using these methods, coupled with Mods. Just think of the possibilities!

I'd also like to see some minor tutorials put out by those creating these levels for import.

Actually I did a part of 1507 in 3dsmax...

I would love to make some tutorials about this thehnique.. I will see when i have some spare time...

Wizard of ID,
I downloaded the grouped mesh file from your post and created an entity from it. The collision on my first test was not good at all with an enemy character. For the player I could move all around but I did have issues with the doorway (while crossing frames dropped to 5 fps) and sometimes I would get stuck in the stairs. Is there a different way to import your mesh that I missed? Should I breaking it up into parts first? Thanks for taking the time to write your findings, I am very interested in this sort of world design. I feel very limited by the segment square snap system.

I agree I am currently doing my work in blender for the levels and texture bakes on my game Alien:Nostromo and some of the scenes are too beautiful I almost don't want to use fpsc for it, but I also agree the models have their ups and downs as far as collisions go. Most of it for me has to deal with the ground and tight spaces, you all know the kind that pushes you right through the floor. But everything else works fine. I say try it and see how it feels. Rolfy was the one that got me into it and I have done it a few times, but my alien game will be the first time That I have constructed the whole levels in first and then export them. I start back on this when the pack for Cp is done. Good luck. If you have any questions just email me. I will do what I can for you.

@KeithC

Yeah it's not really hard to understand the workings of doing a level this way.

Time wise it will take much much longer.

Some people have said they have done this in the past...but all I see is stuff that they have made which looks like pretty standard FPSC segments there isn't any new design forms taking place still the same old flat walls and stuff.

So any one can say they have made a level in which ever program but if you continue to use the same type of format of conforming to the 4 x 4 block room.....why waste your time.

You might as well just use or make segments it is quicker...

The purpose of building a level in a 3d editor is not to build the same old flat long corridors.Real purpose would to be to break free from the normal mesh creation standard of 100 x 100 x 100.

Kravenwolf made a really nice level in blender but I did not see any thing that could not have been done with segments.

I guess my first post wasn't clear enough to spend all that time and effort you should at least make stuff that you would not normally see done with segments.

I'm not dissing you guys you have done a great job I'm merely pointing out that you are still doing the 4 x 4 block room routine which is not any thing new by my standards make some thing abnormal and then you can say this isn't new...sorry that is just how I feel about every other person saying "Done !" and they have not shown any new?

@Hador
Doors are not a problem normal wall thickness is 10 units so if you take that into you design import a door and keep it as a place holder you can later add the door and CSG in the editor.

However there is a limitation on that it has to be a flat wall, FPSC in general is fairly picky with regards to that.

@mAcpo
Yip it's a grouped mesh in other words has not been split into smaller parts and importing as a entity is possibly the worse thing to do for collision.

I just uploaded the group mesh that you could get an idea of what A level in 3d editor could look like I exported the level into smaller sections for testing the purposes not for collision purposes so here are the the meshes please note the have all been uvmapped by my bad texture skills mostly stock scifi textures were used.They are still grouped so Collision is still not 100% as well as been a older version of the level.

Also note it has to be imported as segments not entities...

@starmind

yeah I think it must have been too early in the morning and the angry white boy music playing in the background.

But yeah started the new level not to show to rolfy but for my 3D showcase thread.... so far it's been going good completed the first section 205 meshes and 10k polys excluding the pipes which are another 5k.( in 4 hours ain't half bad )

So I'm starting with the detail of the first section the doors grates light fixtures ect...

Not too much to look at but just to show I do mean business

I've cleaned this thread up because we all know where it was heading. Everyone has argued their point across and we all know who's done what, when and how. Let's put all that behind us shall we?

hi,

I'd like to see a small basic tutorial on how to export a simple (blender)-level with separate meshes.
i don't really understand on how to put those meshes in fpsc. or do i simply have to make segments from them?

sincerely,
kutte128

Building levels in external software


In order to follow this you need some understanding of FPSC as well as your external software you will be using to create you levels with.

The major advantage of creating a level in an external software package it will allow more freedom in creating levels without limitations that FPSC has with segments.

By creating levels in a 3D editor you can create more conventional 3D levels that you would normally find in your favorite First Person Shooter games. FPSC is limited to some extent and creating meshes for your levels require that other segments be taken into
consideration with creating a level with an external program were this limitation does not apply.

However there are some things that have to be taken into account when creating levels.
I’m not going to explain how you create levels or how you texture or design levels the purpose of this is to explain how you can achieve a level with no collision or culling problems. We will also be looking at general mesh creation as well as speaking about exporting and import meshes.

Fpscreator has been build on some set rules and some of these rules can be broken as well as be modified to suite your needs. The rules are based on rendering, collision and culling for the best performance of the engine.

Lets look at mesh standard and creation.

FPScreator uses a standard room size of 100 square units per segment this includes walls ceilings and floors. By painting segments one can increase the room size by a 100 square units each time a new segment has been painted. Floors segments have different thicknesses the standard thickness or minimal thickness is 2 units with ceilings the same applies with the minimal thickness of 2.5 units.

Walls are a little different and have different sizes depending on what the meshes look like but should not exceed 5 units as well as the mesh polygon details should be kept low.

These are units being used by FPS segment creator for placement within the editor. The editor only allows meshes to be moved in 5 unit increments and has strict sizes for mesh thicknesses that is allowed for making room segments if sizes differ too much it will not be saved correctly and you will not be able to create room segments correctly.

The same applies when creating levels in a 3d editor to some extent your mesh thicknesses should meet the minimum thicknesses as well as the 100 square unit length and width requirements if you intend to use other segment with the level you have created.

If you don’t intend to use other segments this mesh dimensions do not apply and meshes can be any thickness you require it to be. I do however recommend that you leave the length and width dimensions alone as this will allow for better texturing as well as collision and culling problems. With having said that some meshes that you have created
can exceed the standard dimensions to allow quicker level designing objects that will not come into direct contact with entities or players but floors or any object that is walked on must be kept to the maximum dimensions this excludes either width or length may be smaller that the maximum dimensions but one should always be kept to the normal limits.

The floor mesh polygons should also be kept flat or polygon detail kept square with sharp corners and should not exceed 2 units above the mesh. This is no guarantee that the collision will work correctly with your floors so I rather recommend that you keep them low polygon and rather use shaders to add details. The other option, which is to add detail separately, but to add the mesh as an entity with collision detection removed so if there is any problems it does not effect the whole mesh and if the detail is small enough it can be over come easily. Flat floors are still recommended. Terrains are not an official feature of FPScreator and will have problems the lower the polygon and smaller the thickness of the terrain the less problems you are likely to have.

Adding back faces to meshes will also help with collision detection. Since I have not written or seen the collision detection code I only know that with removed or inverted faces collision is far worse than with a solid object with all faces drawn it does however have some draw back, that there are more polygons to be rendered. However culling should take care of that if your level has been “sealed” correctly as well as having no light sources out side the “sealed” area adding doors to your level will also help with performance

Walls also have some limitations but that only applies to detail on the meshes and mesh thickness. With creating wall meshes there are collision problems with parts of the mesh that sticks out, with either jumping or crawling collision problems usually occurs. This can also be fixed to some extent by exporting the detail separately and import them as stand alone segments.


This is just the basics that have to be taken into account when creating your levels with a external program.


Culling simply refers to the area of your level that is not visible to the player that does not get rendered. All you can do here is keep your rooms small and add some doors to help speed up the performance a bit.


Now the fun part comes with regards to importing and exporting of meshes and which software to use.


Okay first of all there are numerous methods of getting a level into 3D editor and you can use any other method you want. However if you want no collision problems use my method of doing things the end.

You can use what ever software you want to make your level in, however make sure that you software is capable of exporting meshes one by one and with exact ZXY coordinates.

So in other words if you have export a mesh 200 units from the center cooridantes (0.0.0) when exported it should still be 200 units from the center. This is very important part and can’t be skipped what so ever or else you will not find it easy to fix meshes.

So make sure that your software can do that. Also make sure that your editor can handle the amount of polygons that will be created a small level section with high polygon detail could easily reach in excess of 15000 polygons. Also note it is better to build your level in sections and not a single complete level as your editor might crash and you will lose all your work so make backups often.

As I have said before some meshes can be grouped like walls or areas that the player or entities does not have access to like ceiling or walls. Note grouped items does not mean
boolean items. These meshes are still separate from one another and as such will need to be textured separately with some thing like lithUnwrap which imports and exports the correct coordinates and does not center objects. Also note grouped items will have limited texture options so only use it when you really have to.

Walls floors and other objects should be export separately and textured as such.

When exporting start with the floors and name them, floor_mesh_1 , 2 ,3 ect till all the floors meshes have been exported. Do the same with the rest of the meshes example wall_mesh_1 or Wall_group_1 ect…


Once you have exported and textured all media fire up FPScreator segment creator.
Start by loading the floor meshes only if you have exported correctly each mesh will fall into the position they were saved in from the center. You might have to move the meshes down to the y coordinate of 0. It has to be level with the checker board in the editor.

Once you have moved and applied textures to all the floors you can export all the floors as a single straight segment.

Do the same with the walls but before you start adding the walls load the floor segment you have just created to make sure that the walls are all in the correct positions delete all the floor meshes and export the wall segment after you have applied the textures ect.
Remember to rename the wall segment or else it will just replace the floor segment and you will need to make the floors all over again.

Again do the same with the ceiling and any extra detail like pipes or other map object that you have created,

Left this piece for last in order to insert your doors you will need to load the wall segment again place a single door and CSG and door frame where it needs to be delete the walls and export the door, again remember to rename the file. Do the same with the rest of the doors. Do not place all the doors at once as it may or may not work.

If you need to place other CSG items do the same as above but I prefer to do my CSG while creating my level as CSG tends to be picky at times and may or may not work correctly. All meshes should be saved as straight segments.

If there are more questions you are welcome to ask if there is any thing I have left out or you don’t understand

thank you very much for the infos!

sincerely,
kutte128

Thanks for writing that, WofI!

Does that explain what you needed to know.Also the reason why I don't have collision problems.

I dont have the time right now to read in detail but it all looks pretty sound
The issue I was seeing was with the floor, even with export of many meshes, which will as you say all share the same pivot point and so be placed correctly in segment editor when imported, the problem I have had in the past is when placed in FPSC is that there is only one segment point which appears and this point was the only area which had proper collision with enemies, they tended to either fall through the floor or get stuck, player collision has always been fine for me and the number of poly's had no effect(provided the model is good) even with uneven surfaces,before v1.5 this was no problem after this version Lee introduced null space, intended to prevent enemy characters from walking off platfrorms, ledges and the like, placing normal floor segments beneath this cured it.
I will try your method above and see if things may have changed recently or if its simply that I have been doing things wrongly, one question though, if you export the floors as one segment and place it in FPSC, where would you place the segment for the walls which would surely delete the floor if you did this?
Do you offest the walls by 100 before export to place the wall segment beside the floor?
Would it not be as well to place floor segments as normal in FPSC rather than export/import a lot of meshes as they apparently sit at same height and have same dimensions as standard floors anyway?
I have also found segment editor crashes if you import too many meshes. Whats the limit?

I see exactly what you are doing here, personally I do things a little differently depending on the level design, however any additional ideas or information is always welcome.

I have not yet found a problem or limit yet, do find a problem now and then with the editor not liking a mesh which will crash the editor but it has nothing to do with the limit of meshes.If you do some groupings of meshes you should not have too much problems.

I have found out that if the editor doesn't like a mesh is to group it with another mesh and that may help.
I have not fully tested this so I can't really comment on this yet



Nope what happens is when you place a floor segment in the editor you would have to remember which square you used to place it with and uses the same square to place all of the other parts of the sections of the level your are building.Placing other sections will very likely delete other sections but not always.Removing any sections ends up deleting any segments placed on that square.
Remember I said use straight segment format using that format allows for segments to be placed any where even over lapping deleting will only take place if some thing is removed from a square another segment occupies.

Yes you could however it is not always possible to do so...

I don't know what you mean by this?

*Edit*
What I forgot to add is to improve collision on floors and platforms basically any thing larger than the normal segment sizes is slice it into smaller sections I prefer using duplicating and boolean operations allows me to cut the meshes into exact segment sizes with at least the width or length meeting segment requirements.

Quote: "Do you offest the walls by 100 to place the wall segment beside the floor?"

If your entire level shares the same pivot point, lets make it easy by using a wall and a floor, both wall and floor share the same point, if you create a segment from the floor mesh and place this in FPSC, where would you place the wall segment as it would have to share the same square?
Segment editor would crash if I try to import more than 55 meshes.

OK,I know this is terrain but the same principles apply as its importing seperate meshes to create a larger segment, at this time you could use 3x3 segment size meshes, then null space was introduced and messed it up.
]http://forum.thegamecreators.com/?m=forum_view&t=100892&b=24]

Its entirely possible that 1x1 mesh floor segments would have no problems with things, even if using many meshes, but I did try those not too long ago and found same problems.
I hope your findings are correct as it would help me a lot. Gonna test a simple floor using 100x100x5 meshes with a single pivot and export as segment and give it a try, if its something I am doing wrong maybe you could help me out.

Yes they all share the same square point(well each section of the level would be nuts to import the whole level at once and is best to split it in sections for placement alignment would be trial and error with each section) but each have different coordinates So you would place the floor segment the ceiling segment the doors and walls all on the same square one specific section.

See screenshot

I did however randomly create meshes often duplicating upto 53 meshes and then started duplicating the Humvee meshes with control + V and got well above the 55 mark before crashing

then I went down the list of scifi room segments and loaded each mesh once so far I am at 61 will let you know how far I get...

remember the height requirement for stairs are 5 units high and 2 units thick angled floors needs to 45 degrees mostly the reason terrains don't work well..

Ok, I tested a 12x3 segment floor, I was actually pleasantly surprised to find to find that enemies did not fall straight through the floor or bounce up and down the way they do on terrain created this way, but even after raising them a little in the editor they would just run on the spot, any ideas?

I dont know if I am understanding this correctly, I understand that all objects/meshes share the same pivot point but have different coordinates, they would have to for proper alignment, its when you say they share 'the same square one specific section', what does this mean?
If they all share same segment square when you place them in the editor, how do you get around deleting the floor segment when you place the walls? As I said above it would be fairly easy to offset some of your level parts before export by one segment distance so these could be placed side by side instead of on top of each other, dont get me wrong I could get around all this by myself but for the sake of others who want to try this they might run into this problem.

Got upto 65 meshes before crashing but loading the meshes in groups like I did above with this section 1 had no problems as I only got to 40 mesh slots

This may be due to memory or available mesh slots it's good to know there is a limit and grouping meshes could help increase it a wee bit more collision wouldn't work correctly but as I said only group those that will not affect the player or entities.

MHmhmh This now requires smarter level designing and still keeping to the creating floor ceiling props and walls segments separately.

Screenshot? or email me a mesh to have a look at?

I would post a screenshot but my wireless connection is not working for me, something I have to fix tonight, on the wifrs comp to write this for now and using my laptop to test.
I simply imported the standard FPSC floor mesh to Max and cloned that, it may be a problem with .x conversion.
Also as a quick test I simply imported a standard floor mesh from FPSC stock and created a 6x3 floor segment, I know this doesnt recreate the same scenario with different meshes have differing coordinates but you would think this would actually work fine, same result with characters running in place.

Yeah don't worry I didn't clone the meshes and had the same problem simply painted 12 tiles In FPSC segment creator. Weird I tell you the collision works for the player and aiko shoots the living day lights out of me but then again now that I remember that when in testing the first design before posting I did paint some floors separately that I placed some entities on for testing.

Ah well I do make mistakes every now and then still doesn't ruin the idea of creating levels in 3d editors just have to be slightly altered now.

thanks pointing that out?

I guess we can then rather suggest that floor meshes be painted one by one but keeping the rest intact.

I had hoped you had found a way to get around this issue, pity, as I said its null space, still with uneven surfaces I have found that if they are placed a little higher in segment editor before export you can place standard segments beneath and enemy characters will follow the mesh form above these so its not completely a loss.
If you find that your floor needs to be a little higher or lower this would solve it.
Thanks for the discussion....it was interesting.

Painting one segment to one square fine we do that all the time.

with this we are painting a segment that goes over numerous squares but only the square we have assigned the segment to is effected.

Because we use the straight type segment, segment can be added on top of one another without deleting any other information.

Sorry don't know of any other way to explain it.Looks like I might check out other versions to test collision out on if I do find a working one I will add some more information about that.

I have every version on my PC since version 1.2 but that would be like down grading ??

Thanks I enjoyed it as well.

So there you have it guys your floor segments should be painted one by one

Very interesting I will give this a go as well. I love to model full levels, but I could never get the seg editor to work right for me, even for a simple door. LOL. I do like this Rolfy and Wizard of id, outstanding I like the fact that you two are putting your minds together on this. I have always enjoyed the stuff that you both have provided here and I look forward to more. Keep it up! Now if we could get lee to just integrate a model program staight into the editor we could have alot more custom games. LOL Sorry if I am sound alittle out there been sick for the last few days and the really been kinda loopy lately, but I must add off subject, Rolfy I have been using the texture bake on my new pack with CP and I must say the look better than anything that I have done and well worth the info you gave just by saying you bake your textures. Thanks for that information and I think if I could squeeze a pic out of Cp you all would agree. Wizard of id I look forward to seeing and playing a demo on this. There is no such thing as to little of any knowledge good or bad. It all evens out in the end.

Yip I am busy with creating a smallish level to test out and to show how groupings have been done ect...

A screen shot of the level so far

Looking forward to the finished walk-through with this one!

This is interesting topic.

Don't know if that suite your needs, bur I think (never tried it) you can build your level using your 3d software in this way.

You build the meshes for segment, say at position (0, 0 , 5): floor, walls, corners, whathever yo like and then save meshes as floor005, wall005, etc. With the FPS segment creator build the segment005.

Then you build the meshes for segment, say at position (0, 1, 5), again save meshes as xxxxx015 and build segment015

When you save your meshes you always center them at origin 0,0,0 so you don't need to adjust it in FPSC segment creator, and then move them in the right position to have an full overview of the level in 3D editor

In FPS Creator select segmentXYZ and place it in XYZ cell

Just seen this post, And i think this is great. So im able to use blender to create/map out my levels, And import them into fps? Do i just use the program "FPS Creator Entity Maker" to make them as entity's? And then import them into fps.

No, just use FPSC Segment Creator tool to build segment (*.fps) files

This will be fun. Being able to make some nice levels in blender, Then place them into fpsc!!

Well so guys I am nearly done with the level just have to add the ceilings export and texture and import into FPSC and write the walk-through for this level and explain what items can be grouped.

Collision problems and doors and CSG.

So is this done yet? I am still curious.

No it's fine?

Will have it up some time next week going on a fishing trip today till Sunday so some time next week perhaps.