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Game Design Theory / Space Conquest

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Libervurto
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Posted: 26th Nov 2010 03:43 Edited at: 26th Nov 2010 04:38
Space Conflict, written by IBOL, began life as a 20-liner. I was so impressed by the game that I painstakingly uncompressed the code and rebuilt the game in a more efficient structure. As I got to grips with the code I started to add new features (my editions are available in the linked thread).

Encouraged by my enthusiasm, IBOL resumed the project and with the help of David Gervais' artwork, Space Conflict was reborn.

Now IBOL and I have been talking about expanding this game even further, to span whole galaxies and use procedural generation methods to create millions of unique planets, alien civilisations and technology for the player to encounter! With this new expansive vision, I think it is appropriate to expand the name from Space Conflict to Space Conquest.


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IBOL
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Posted: 26th Nov 2010 05:15 Edited at: 26th Nov 2010 05:39
Space Conquest, it is!
i'm really glad you responded!

i spent a few hours today going back and forth over some ideas.
some question the fundamental truths, some are cosmetic.

here's a big one : Keep the game 'RTS' , or change it to an RTS/turn-based strategy hybrid?
my thoughts

Why?


But How Would 'Fleets' Work?


i have lots of ideas, but please tell me yours too...
i'd like to have a dialog.

IBOL
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Posted: 26th Nov 2010 19:06 Edited at: 26th Nov 2010 19:07
OK, so some other ideas i had :
(some of these are my interpretations of other people's suggestions)

Planets
- planets could have 'value' , like poor,average,rich. this effects economy
- planets can also have different 'max populations' , instead of a base 2500.
- these 2 things make some planets more valuable than others, and add strategy and tension to your attack and defense maneuvers.
- all planets can have their own image, but how many planets should we aim for? (probably a player's pre-game choice, but what are his options?) 100,250,500,1000 ?

Different Ship Types
some people say they want more ship types.
the original game has destroyers (DD), cruisers (CA), and battlehsips (BB)
each ship's stats are a simple progression; DD are fastest and weakest, while BB are slowest but most firepower & defense.

- we could add the frigate (FF), which is smaller than DD, and the dreadnought (DN) which is larger than the BB, and use the same kind of stat progression,
- or we could introduce specific 'units'. this is not something i think about well, so if you think it's the way to go, then i'll need your advice
- a third option is 'ship design' , where players can design ships using a 'point' system, and assign various ATK,DEF,SPD,RNG
this is fairly complicated, but certainly possible. i would choose to limit a player to 6-8 'classes' of ship.
- - this option also requires intelligent design by AI, or a pool of pre-designed ships to choose from. (neither are a particular problem, just more work & thought)

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Posted: 26th Nov 2010 19:24 Edited at: 27th Nov 2010 16:37
And This is a *Big Question*:

Do the other alien races fight eachother?

- the big problem here is processing speed.
- if we have 500 planets, with ~ 20-30 races, they can each have fleets, and ships, and everything else.
- at a certain point, we're going to have 1fps, and the game will stop.
(shrinking this because it's thinking too far ahead:


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Posted: 26th Nov 2010 19:36 Edited at: 27th Nov 2010 16:38
Technology
shrink


IBOL
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Posted: 26th Nov 2010 21:22 Edited at: 28th Nov 2010 06:18
Large Re-Design Possibility

Instead of having a huge galaxy of 1000's of planets and 100's of active races, all processing at once,
have "sectors"

(this 'sectors' idea is different from the one stated further down)
shrinkydink


Libervurto
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Posted: 26th Nov 2010 23:59
My vision is really ambitious, I would like to create the feeling of almost infinite space, like Elite or more recently Spore.

Procedural Galaxies
We can create stars and solar systems procedurally, we could even have a dynamic universe where all the planets and stars are constantly moving using origin position and revolution speed, then pairing that with the game timer we could plot where each celestial object should be when we need to draw them. I'm not sure how easy that would be for the user, it might look cool but they could easily lose where they are.

Procedural Images
Ships and planets we can do procedurally too, I'd like their appearance to be linked to some kind of statistic to give them an intuitive character. For example a planet with lots of water and little land mass would have a smaller maximum population than one with a larger land mass. In effect we would use the planet's statistics as the parameters for the procedural image creation. This gives the player the ability to learn the visual effects each statistic has and so judge whether a planet is suitable or whether an alien will be hostile just from appearances.
I think it would be cool to have an alien portrait procedurally generated as well, it would add a nice touch when communicating with aliens.

How Do We Handle The Data??
The problem I run into is if we are creating thousands, maybe millions of planets and hundreds of alien races, how are we going to keep track of who owns what planet and how many ships they have etc?

AI
I have an idea for AI vs AI combat. I have a little game on my PC which is like a simplified version of Space Conflict; you select your planet and the planet you want to attack, type in the number of ships to send and they are deployed, then there is a delay to represent the ships travelling to the target and the battle is decided. The nice thing about the delay is that you have to plan ahead.
This is similar to your fleets idea, maybe we could have an even simpler algorithm of planet vs planet for distant AI conflicts.

I think there is going to have to be a differing scope if this is going to be a believable universe while not melting the CPU! I am thinking of nearby AI moving individual ships while distant alien races only make the big decisions, like which planet to attack next.

hmmm... this is complicated!


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Eminent
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Posted: 27th Nov 2010 05:20
If it caps at 250 units, maybe have the player zoom into smaller parts of the entire galaxy. There are dots where fleets are. Green coloured dots means no fighting going on, red means yes fighting.


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Posted: 27th Nov 2010 05:29
OK, wow, that is ambitious!
(i played & enjoyed spore also. and its galaxy is immense.)

check out this page, from the same guy who inspired my procedural spaceships:
http://www.davebollinger.com/works/pixelrobots/
i was thinking that we could make those for alien races, if you want to communicate with them.

some reactions:

- it seems like your idea is definitely not the same sort of game (that's fine, and it's good to know)

- if aliens might be friendly, what would you do with them/ for them?

- for procedural generation: if we can come up with enough interesting formulas,
we can get all data for planets from their X,Y coordinates within the galaxy.
for example:


- something that spore does is: the player only has 1 ship. if you were only able to fly one ship (or fleet) around, that would certainly limit processing demands.

- basically, in a galaxy that is endless, how do you limit omnipotence?
once you have 20 planets at full population, producing huge ships, etc. what do you still need to do?

(one answer is this: the more planets you colonize, the more expensive it is to colonize another one, perhaps due to the
increasing beuracracy and trade routes needed to keep a large empire running)

or: make units prohibitively expensive. especially the really big ones.

OK, so this is meant as a friendly question, and intended to inspire debate:
what is the point of having 9999999 stars/planets?
can the player achieve anything in that universe that they could not achieve in a 999 star universe, or even a 400 star universe?
- what can we offer as a gameplay reward for exploring or conquering that much space?

Devonps
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Posted: 27th Nov 2010 10:52
If you want to use PCG to generate your planets, why stop there? why not use it to generate your entire universe?

When I looked into this I used a modified Fibonacci sequence as my random string and picked a random start point for each game - thus giving me different game content every time that could be rebuilt every time - assuming I knew the original seed of course.

If you're interested I can dig out some proof of concept code and walk you guys through it?

Steve.

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Libervurto
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Posted: 27th Nov 2010 15:29
I agree that millions of planets and alien races is probably too much, there would be too many similar races for a start and it would be hard to tell them apart. I think around 20-100 alien races would be enough to populate even a huge galaxy. It would be nice to have a few "primitive" races who haven't mastered space travel, you could even help them improve their technology and start building spacecraft.

No matter how big the galaxy is, I would like to create that feeling of discovery, like in Minecraft when you find a cave system or new island; because everything is procedurally generated you never know what to expect!

I think stars should be included, we can navigate to solar systems using the stars, and planet statistics could be based on their proximity to their star; i.e. rocky smaller planets closer and gas giants further away.

To stop one race becoming too powerful, weaker races could form alliances against more powerful races. So if you try to take over the galaxy everyone will gang up on you.

@Devonps
Yes please that would be interesting.


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Posted: 27th Nov 2010 16:45 Edited at: 27th Nov 2010 17:33
well,
'a feeling of discovery' is something i can relate to.
so perhaps a game of exploration, more than combat, is what you're after.

in that case, we can focus on interesting things for the player to find, instead of so many combat statistics.

i've never played minecraft (i know, gasp!, i'm so behind the times and uncool) ... maybe i'll look at it today.
but spore is certainly awesome that way...you never know what you'll find on the next planet...
[edit] so now i have played minecraft, and i don't immediately see the point.
this is where i played it http://www.minecraft.net/play.jsp

my first thought is that there should be some 'resource gathering',
instead of having everything already available.
(like it gives you a reason to dig and swim and stuff)
and yes, i dug underground and found some cool caves, and yes, it was a really neat experience, but then i was still left with 'why am i here?'

so, however we make the game, i would like the player to feel like s/he has a *purpose*.

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Posted: 27th Nov 2010 18:08
Here is a possible way to handle a large galaxy.
this is taken directly from my 'notes' , so please don't be offended by capitalization.

the idea of 'sectors' is different from above, so treat it as new.


Libervurto
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Posted: 27th Nov 2010 19:11
There is a survival mode of Minecraft which is much better (I haven't actually played it as it doesn't work on my machine/linux but I've watched lots of videos, which was strangely entertaining), in survival mode you gather resources to build tools and weapons to fight the monsters that come out at night and lurk in dark caves! The rarity of some resources forces you to explore the world to find new mines.
Resources are a good idea; a generic ore for building ships would be my first suggestion.

I like the idea of larger empires costing more to upkeep (maybe number of planets * area of empire or something) I am going to read a bit about the Roman empire, it collapsed because of over-expansion so maybe there is something in there we could apply as a rule for the game.

The sectors idea might save a lot of processing time, but I was thinking of instead of each sector being a separate "level" they are part of the same game but relatively inactive until you travel to them.
The way I'm thinking is to have distant sectors that are only calculating very small amounts of data, such as selecting planets to colonize/attack, scale of resources spent on the attack, progress of the attack. So the race wouldn't actually build the ships or move them about, but when we visit that sector the alien's plans are analysed and appropriate ships are created in the appropriate position depending on the race's military standpoint and the scale and progress of the attack. In short, we would generate more complex scenarios from the basic data we have on the race's actions and character.

The player's fleets would have to be stored but every other race's fleets could be generated on the fly. I see a problem with this though, if you quickly switch between sectors alien craft would appear and disappear as they are generated differently!

Am I over-thinking this problem? How many fleets could we store in memory?

This is making my head hurt Sorry I am making this complicated but this procedural stuff gets me excited

I wish there was a way to reverse engineer the random number generator; so you take any string of numbers and output the seed! That would be so cool.


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Posted: 27th Nov 2010 19:34 Edited at: 27th Nov 2010 19:37
i have always been a big fan of procedural content generation.

i wrote a rogue-like (that i still haven't released) that not only generates levels and weapons randomly, but also an entire 'bestiary' : 26 new monsters for every new game you play
(and you can save, and reload, and everything is still intact.)

but it seems to me that either Exploration or Conquest should be chosen as a focus for the game.

earlier, when i was thinking 'exploration' , i was thinking that perhaps your 'empire' self-manages: colonizes, builds, even fights wars, all on its own.
your influence on it is what you do in space, and what you find. who you talk to, etc.
you could probably set sliders or 'stance' buttons, like: be nice, kill, grow, etc.

in this case, i would suggest war be conducted like this:


PS: in response to this
Quote: "The sectors idea might save a lot of processing time, but I was thinking of instead of each sector being a separate "level" they are part of the same game but relatively inactive until you travel to them."

i say again: treat the new sectors idea as a new idea. it is not intended to be 'different levels' . it is a way to manage a 'large game' as a 'single entity'

lets keep getting these ideas out there!

Libervurto
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Posted: 27th Nov 2010 21:34 Edited at: 27th Nov 2010 21:34
Hmm, exploration seems a bit like Star Trek and is a whole other direction from Space Conflict, so I would pick Conquest.

Expanding on your fleets idea, how about we manage ships like this:
Destroyers, Cruisers and Battleships are short range craft, they can be based at planets or loaded into a Carrier, a huge ship, for interplanetary transport (this is like a fleet). When a carrier or planet is attacked the individual ships are deployed.


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Posted: 27th Nov 2010 23:31 Edited at: 28th Nov 2010 00:15
ok, now THAT's a nice idea.
and carriers would be a huge investment,
so if you lost one of those, you'd be pretty mad.
kind of like the 'guild highliners' in dune? (the 1984 movie, if you've seen it)

irrespective of dune, and even losing/building them, carriers are a nice idea, and they explain to the player why s/he has so few fleets.



[edit]

hey, is there any chance that you would accept turning this into a Turn Based Strategy Game ?
the combat could still be with whatever units the player has, marching them around the field and so on...

but the processing would be done at "end turn".
pop growth, money making, fleet moving, colonization, war-starting, etc.

what do you think about that?

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Posted: 28th Nov 2010 02:45 Edited at: 28th Nov 2010 02:46
i put up some images of generated planet and alien races over at the original thread, towards the bottom.

Devonps
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Posted: 28th Nov 2010 14:00
This first post is about how I generate a Fibonacci sequence, if you understand the maths behind it then it's really easy to generate in code, btw the maths are really easy!



I've set this to generate a string of 2000 numbers - you can change this easily. This is currently set to create a data file (please change the location) but it would be trivial to use an array and keep it in memory.

I'm assuming you know about the Fib. sequence, if not let me know and I'll explain

My second post explains how I used it...

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Devonps
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Posted: 28th Nov 2010 14:14 Edited at: 28th Nov 2010 14:16
My second post, how I use the Fib sequence.

Step 1: load the file into the game



This is called via


Step 2: find a random start point within the fib string (this is the real secret source)



This is called via


Now an example of how I put this into use, the example shows how I determine the number of star systems per galaxy they are.

First up the data I'm going to be referring to


Next the code...


For your purposes assume the fibstring is stored in the data file as 123456789012345 (starts at element zero)
and the fbloc is picked as 3 then the fibvalue 4, then the number of star systems in this galaxy is 600.

I would then apply this technique to every aspect of a planet (size, population, techlevel, environment, etc).

By changing the "seed" or fbloc variable you can generate a vast amount of content without much effort. But by storing the seed you can instantly recreate any game start point.

Let me know if you have questions.

Steve.

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Devonps
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Posted: 28th Nov 2010 14:18
As a bonus I made a start on a random name generator - maybe you can use it?
Again everything is written to disk, so you may want to change that.



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Posted: 28th Nov 2010 15:18
@Devonps,
wow,that's great stuff to think about!
thank you for sharing / posting / taking the time.

please forgive my ignorance, but can you give us some links to your projects or some info about what your doing? (Elite, possibly)
if you're willing to have us look...

About the 'name generation' , i was thinking of trying to use cryptographic principles / letter frequency to create a name generator,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Letter_frequency
and i know OBese87 has a name generator too.
it will be interesting to see what we all come up with.

i thought/dreamed about this all last night through my sleep.

Libervurto
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Posted: 28th Nov 2010 20:43 Edited at: 29th Nov 2010 03:07
I'm working on a new name generator.

[edit]

Actually I'm not, the old one is very simple and works a treat, the great thing is it doesn't require any additional memory and can be plugged into any program.


I haven't had a look at yours yet devon but thanks for posting.


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Posted: 29th Nov 2010 18:06 Edited at: 29th Nov 2010 18:14
here's my DBP-compatible version of OBese87's name generator, printing examples to the screen:




I'd like to clear something up:
OBese87, you're on linux now, and can't actually run the DB editor/compiler/whatever, right? so you can run the programs it makes in 'wine', but you can't test / run 'code'.
is that right?

my 'native' language is DBP, while yours is DB.
i recently acquired DB classic, but have no experience with it.
one thing i notice is: No UDT's User Defined Types.
i think that's critical to the order of a project this big,
so i'd like to program in DBP.
- if you can convince me otherwise, go ahead.

also,
if we can decide things about the 'galaxy' , then i can begin to build a model to look at.

perhaps if we can focus our attentions here, we can achieve something somewhat tangible.

What I Think Needs To Be Decided:


your thoughts on direction are more than welcome.

Devonps
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Posted: 29th Nov 2010 18:44
Quote: "please forgive my ignorance, but can you give us some links to your projects or some info about what your doing? (Elite, possibly) if you're willing to have us look..."

Apart from digging out the design document and walking you through that, how else can I help?

My original project was Elite inspired, but I was (and still am) very much interested in the whole PCG thing. I don't think my project code would be useful to you as I was building a whole Client/Server project and I never released the code.

I intended to have nearly everything generated at run time, from the universe down to the individual trading components and even the different enemies you could encounter - very ambitious really and as I realised beyond my PCG skills at the time, so I've switched tack and am generating a roguelike.

So fire away and I'll do my best to help

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IBOL
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Posted: 29th Nov 2010 19:13
i'm not looking for code, man,
i was asking to see like a completed project, or a demo or something,
and asking respectfully, because it seemed like your project was huge and famous, and i just somehow didn't know about it.

i (believe) i understand what you've said as far as the fib$ and such, and thank you for it.

Devonps
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Posted: 29th Nov 2010 20:24
Did you think I was being disrespectful with my reply?

The offer of the code was a genuine one and one made from a point of research for you, the same as my POC code.

If you're taking my offer of help/code as me being disrespectful then you can keep what I've offered and I withdraw my offer of help.

Good luck with your project and I hope you succeed.

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Posted: 29th Nov 2010 20:46
i think we're both intending to be respectful to eachother,
and we're both misinterpreting each other.
let's not do that anymore

Devonps
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Posted: 29th Nov 2010 20:50
I agree, it's much easier and enjoyable to be friendly.

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Posted: 29th Nov 2010 21:14
i'm so glad you respopnded.

your rogue-like talk inspired me to go back and try to release my rogue-like. it's 4 years old now...

Devonps
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Posted: 29th Nov 2010 21:20
Wow 4 years, mines still very young at 8 months - lol - and still in Alpha.

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Libervurto
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Posted: 30th Nov 2010 11:22 Edited at: 30th Nov 2010 11:30
@IBOL
Let's use DBP, I can just use my imagination until I get a version of windows installed on my PC - Wine sort of works but I'm not holding my breath as we already had a problem with midi files.
I don't know the peculiarities of DBP so you may have to adjust my code or explain things to me. I understand types, so that's ok.

I am leading a DNG project at the moment, I have just moved into a new house so things have stalled but I will probably be jumping between the two projects until DNG is finished. I hope we can get it done before christmas, we're making space invaders.

Back to the universe...

There's something very fitting about using stars to navigate around the universe.
Atmosphere
It could be more expensive to establish a base on a planet without a breathable atmosphere. Aliens could breathe different gases to us, so they can naturally inhabit different worlds.
If aliens breathe the same as us then we could just have breathable and unbreathable atmospheres.
Planet Types
How would it be possible to colonize a gas planet? I don't like the idea of just colonizing it because that doesn't make sense. If we have moons then we can colonize the moon. We could even build space stations. What do you think?
Resources & Planet Statistics
Yes I think it's a good idea to have some sort of un-renewable resource. This stops the player from just sitting on their backside and watching the money pile up. I think having to transport resources between planets would provide an interesting "supply lines" element of play but would each planet having its own supplies be a problem datawise?
Size is important for display and population capacity - maybe linked with planet type also. I said before that population capacity could be linked to land mass on oceanic planets, this would be a nice touch but only if land mass can be specified in the generation algorithm of the planet.

Empire Building
I am thinking about empires - I will do more research - I was thinking that colonization wouldn't always be possible, our species can only reproduce so fast. So some planets would be governed by our race but still inhabited by native aliens.
What do you think?


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Posted: 1st Dec 2010 18:20
i would like you guys to check out this thread

basically it seems to 'prove' that the same random seed will produce the same results, even on different computers,
making complex generation means unnecessary.

i like the idea of planets being 'governed by us'.

i think the idea of 'supply lines' is interesting, and could add to the strategic elements of planning attacks.
*but* i think it might be too much 'record-keeping'.
then again, as we move to solidifying our ideas, we might decide it's a good choice.
i think 'simulating' supply lines is better: the larger your empire is, the more it costs to colonize or rule a new planet.

re: atmosphere
i prefer to have different atmospheres, perhaps 3 : Oxygen, Methane, Carbon Dioxide.
we could also have planets with no atmosphere, and asteroids, and gas giants (which as you said could be uncolonizable...unless their can be 'ethereal' races, who are born there...)
- i would prefer not to differentiate between 'planets' and 'moons' , and a moon may theoretically have all the varied characteristics of a planet.

there could be different image-generation routines for each kind of planet, and it could be tied to their other characteristics.

i personally don't feel a strong need for 'resources' , but if we can come up with a few decent ones, i'd be for it.

we have been all over the map here, discussing many parts of the game. we should continue to get our ideas out, but then,
solidify them into an overall concept,
find what's important and get rid of the rest.

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Posted: 6th Dec 2010 06:31
well, i've been working hard on getting my rogue-like releasable.
think i'm just about there...thanks for the nudge, devonps!

Devonps
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Posted: 6th Dec 2010 23:19
lol - no problem IBOL - I'm looking forward to the release

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Posted: 7th Dec 2010 08:00
i made this movie about it.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6vahVOZvIQY
i think i need to do it in a higher resolution,
but i spent all my free time today on it.

Devonps
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Posted: 7th Dec 2010 18:44
Liked the video IBOL, when's the release?

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Libervurto
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Posted: 8th Dec 2010 15:06 Edited at: 8th Dec 2010 15:14
IBOL, nice video it looks like a fun game.

I have been thinking about Space Conquest, I couldn't remember what governed the behaviour of the AI races but it seems to me we only need two variables:

Aggression - The more aggressive civilisations are quick to use military force and fearless in combat. However, their governments are less stable than peaceful civilisations.

Technology - Advanced civilisations produce better ships, weaponry and have a better infrastructure, but they require greater resources and have a lower birth rate than primitive civilisations. Advanced civilisations also explore the galaxy, while some very primitive civilisations haven't even mastered space flight!

I've snuck in a couple of ideas here; Governments are not inherintly stable, there could even be rebel factions fighting against members of their own race or separate nations on planets as we have on Earth. This brings up the idea of combat on individual planets as well as in space.
Some races wouldn't be advanced enough to leave their home world - but maybe this would be possible with trade or help from more advanced races - I would suggest that we use what I call "status quo inference" when placing races on planets, for example a primitive race should inhabit a planet that is very rich in resources because if they are not able to explore the galaxy to find new resources, they must have resources on their planet to be able to survive, conversely a planet with scarce resources must be inhabited by a very advanced civilisation or they would surely have perished. So however the universe is when first created we assume it has been stable for some time.

What do you think about having factions that can be made up of a mix of races or entirely separate civilisations of the same race? What about new factions forming during the course of the game?
I think as few as 20 races would be enough to give the illusion of a vast diversity, especially if these were generated differently each game.


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IBOL
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Posted: 14th Dec 2010 06:55 Edited at: 14th Dec 2010 06:56
i have been working really hard on my roguelike,
and now it's Finished!
thanks for reminding me about it.

* Random Realms * Check it out here

sorry i haven't replied, but i just couldn't wrap my head around so many things.
and hopefully you're moved in to your new house now.
now we just have christmas to contend with...

i like the "status quo inference" idea specifically,
and the rest of the ideas in general.

Devonps
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Posted: 14th Dec 2010 14:18
@IBOL - I have posted a response to your game in the other thread.

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Libervurto
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Posted: 17th Dec 2010 16:29 Edited at: 17th Dec 2010 17:32
I hope noobs read your code IBOL because you make some interesting stuff and prove that you don't need fancy graphics to make a fun game. People often waste time making graphics and then lose momentum on their projects, you've shown it is better to get the game working first before worrying about aesthetics. Although personally I like the ASCII graphics

Are you still working on Random Realms or have you come back to Space Conquest?

Lots of ideas have been floating around so I will try to summarize where I think we are in the design process:

Confirmed Concepts (things that we have agreed to include)
* You will play against more than one AI civilisation simultaneously.
* The game is set within a galaxy, with many stars, each/many of the solar systems contain planets that can be colonized/inhabited by the player or AI civilisations.
* Planets, Species and Spacecraft graphics will be procedurally generated.

Discussed Concepts (things we have discussed but not confirmed)
* The game will be turn-based.
*\ There are several classes of spacecraft.
** Destroyers - cheap, small, fast, short-ranged fighter ships. Deployed in large numbers in the battle.
** Cruisers - larger, more powerful, slightly slower craft. Ideally suited for local space law enforcement.
** Battleships - large slow ships with powerful weaponry. The artillery of space conflict.
** Motherships (Carriers/Colonizers) - huge ships used to transport other spacecraft and supplies needed to colonize new worlds.
** Cargo Ships - used to transport goods between planets.
* Some planets have moons that can also be colonized.
* Planets/moons have atmospheres; in order to colonize a planet it must have a suitable environment/atmosphere for life to exist. Whether or not a planet/moon has an atmosphere depends on its mass - this is a scientific fact.
* Advanced civilisations are able to build artificial environments on planets/moons that would otherwise be uninhabitable to their species.
* Different alien species require different environmental conditions to survive.
* 20 to 30 alien races are created for each game.
* Some alien races are primitive and incapable of space travel.
* Primitive races usually inhabit planets rich in resources, while advanced races generally inhabit dying planets - status quo inference.
* Individual races can be politically divided and many civilisations can exist of the same race.
* Some civilisations are composed of a mix of alien races.
* Governments are not inherintly stable.
* Planets can be divided into nations or unified by one power.
* Combat takes place on planets as well as in space.
* AI political factions are formed and disbanded during gameplay.
* Rebel factions can arise from within civilisations and take power from their governments - like Star Wars .
* Every race has three factors: Intelligence, Aggression and Technology. High intelligence increases the rate of technological advancement, the desire to explore the galaxy, increases life span and lowers the birth rate of the species (also encourages inter-breeding and race integration if this is possible). High aggression produces fearless and skilled warriors (though combat effectiveness also depends on technology), unstable governments, the desire to obtain resources and territory through conquest and an adversion to forming alliances. The Technology stat acts like a marker on the timeline of technological advancement, showing the species' current level of technology, this is increased over time naturally by Intelligence but can also be boosted through trade with more advanced civilisations.
Just these three factors allow for a wide range of civilisations. A highly advanced, peaceful civilisation would act like the crew of the USS Enterprise, while their equal but more aggressive counterparts would be like the Klingons. A rebel faction like the Rebel Alliance in Star Wars would be technologically advanced yet they would rely on the technology of other civilisations so would have a very low Intelligence rating, this means they would be stuck with the same technology until they could obtain more advanced equipment from other factions.
* Trade can be conducted for political reasons, i.e. you might supply a rebel faction of an enemy race with weapons.

Proposed Concepts (things that haven't yet been discussed)
* Inter-stellar travel is achieved by opening temporary wormholes. This allows instant travel to the outskirts of a solar system, but longer journeys still cost more than shorter jumps.
* Resources are required to build and maintain spacecraft and infrastructure.
* Despite this game's political and combat-based themes, I'd like it to have a bit of humour thrown in. I think a touch of light-heartedness always helps people enjoy games.
* The galaxy is dynamic, all stars orbit galactic central, all planets orbit their stars and all moons their mother planets.
* Other objects such as comets are also dynamic and can impact on spacecraft or celestial bodies.

Rejected Concepts
* Have we rejected anything yet?


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IBOL
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Posted: 17th Dec 2010 21:54
this looks wonderfully orderly, and i greatly appreciate it!
i am really still in rogue-like mode, so i might need a week or two
(read: after xmas/new years) to get my head back in the game (space conquest)

i agree with the confirmed concepts (i guess that's the meaning...)

as far a *turn-based, i think that would solve an enormous number of our processor-related questions.
Q: do you have any experience with space 4X games ? master of orion, space empires, galactic civiliations ?

i think having our combat still be real time (and the player taking a necessarily active role in that) can still keep it fresh.

other points:
DD/CA/BB/motherships : like it.
20-30 races, with aggression, technology, and intelligence : Good.
status quo inference, good. environments & enviro-requirements, good.

moons make me uncomfortable , because they will have different data types / handling requirements in the code, but will serve the exact same purpose as planets. you can try to convince me otherwise

different races/factions inhabiting the same planet makes me very uncomfortable, simply because i don't quite see how to handle the data. ( i understand 1 race 'owning' a planet, but how do multiple races do that? and who gets to build what where?
an alternative would be to make it *seem* like this was going on:
there could be a small chance each turn/hour/whatever, based on the race's *aggression*, that the planet would become a *new civilization*. they would keep the old race-picture, but their name would change, and some of that stats might change also.
political alliances would almost certainly change.

this is my initial reaction,
thanks again for putting it in such an orderly list we can refer to!

Libervurto
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Posted: 17th Dec 2010 23:26
I actually put "turn-based" in the confirmed section first but I thought we hadn't really talked about it enough. I agree that it seems more logical for the scale of the game.

I still like the idea of planets with separate nations, but I understand it adds some complications. Maybe it isn't a great idea, I think we should continue with the other ideas and see if having divided planets fits in with them or not.

I think we need to address the role of resources. I think "Ore" would be a good requirement for building spaceships, it would also be good to have some generic power resource that would fuel ships and provide electricity etc.


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Libervurto
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Posted: 25th Dec 2010 03:00
Recap and Resources
I decided to go over the older posts again because I don't feel my ideas are coming together into anything solid, I need to refresh my perspective on this game.
I was struggling with how to manage resources, but then I thought about the scale of the game; If we are talking about whole planets and a time period of a few hundred years then resources aren't going to change by any noticeable amount, what will matter is who is in control of the resource-rich planets. This is like your idea of having differently valued planets, I'm just defining the value of a planet by its level of mineral deposits. Now these minerals could simply generate income for the empire (as you suggested), or they could supply materials for construction and trade.

Career Mode?
What if you started out as commander of a ship then progressed up the ranks to emperor? It could be a nice way to introduce the different scopes of gameplay and give the player more powers as they progress.


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Libervurto
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Posted: 25th Dec 2010 03:18
Visions for the Game
What are your thoughts on the game so far? Is it going in the right direction? Has your vision for the game changed? Can you see a solid game idea yet?

A Living Galaxy
My vision of the game being quite large in scale, maybe up to 100 stars, each with five or six planets on average. But even with this huge scale, and using a turn based system, I'd like to be able to zoom in and see activity going on. If we own two close planets I want to see cargo ships making their way from one to the other, police cruisers chasing down space pirates, I want to see a living galaxy with lots of activity. This ambient activity could just be a representation of current events and not have any impact on the game or it could be drawn into real action. For example, an enemy could decide they want to attack our supply routes between planets, now if we were watching the planets and there was a cargo ship en-route when the enemy arrives they would attack that very ship! If we weren't watching then..


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Libervurto
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Posted: 25th Dec 2010 03:27 Edited at: 25th Dec 2010 03:44
nothing would be generated unless we zoomed in to see what was happening. Losing the cargo ship would have no effect, it is only one ship, the main point here is that the enemy is blocking all trading on this route, but it would be a great visual representation of what is happening. I like the idea that this appears to be a spontaneous event, we were just watching our little cargo ship and suddenly it was attacked!
Blocked supply routes could mean the less resource-rich planets in our empire would struggle to produce because they lack supplies. We also wouldn't get income from trade with Alien civilisations.
Another reason trade routes could be damaged is from raids by pirates or rebel forces. This is a matter for local planetary policing. Going back to the ambient activity, if we had high crime rates then we could watch our cargo ship getting raided by pirates and, hopefully, police cruisers would race to the scene and chase the pirates...


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Libervurto
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Posted: 25th Dec 2010 03:32 Edited at: 25th Dec 2010 03:35
Because these events would be based on real statistics it would give a really nice feeling of a vibrant active galaxy, and would give the player an idea of what is going on without having to read a load of numbers. I can't see why we couldn't generate these events whenever we zoom into a planet or solar system. What if we zoom out and then back in? Would everything be generated again differently? Would that matter? Or is there some clever way we could maintain continuity without keeping track of every ship in the galaxy?

Sorry for all those double posts, I am on my PS3 and it has a word limit. Good news, I got hold of a copy of windows xp so I will be able to help properly with the coding as soon as I buy a network card.
I have commited myself to a Dark Noobs project so I wont be doing any coding on this before that is finished, but it will probably be finished before we start coding anyway.

Merry Christmas IBOL... and Devonps


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Posted: 27th Dec 2010 01:24
I must admit, I liked the way this game seemed at the start, but after you changed it into a turn based game, it feels as though part of it has been lost. I think it makes you lose a tactical edge in combat, which I think is more than essential in space, as unlike other RTS games, there are no barriers like walls, cliffs, etc to stop your enemies.

Quote: "What if you started out as commander of a ship then progressed up the ranks to emperor? It could be a nice way to introduce the different scopes of gameplay and give the player more powers as they progress."


Interesting, how would you transition this? Would the commander have full power over the ship, or would it receiver orders from higher in the command chain?

Libervurto
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Posted: 27th Dec 2010 05:50
i think this game will be a bit like shogun total war (in space), the empire management will be turn based but combat will still be real time, if i understand ibol correctly.


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IBOL
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Posted: 28th Dec 2010 01:51
hi,
i want you to know that i have been completely out of touch in the woods for 5 days, but i have just read this,
and am trying to put together a good response.
general feeling : optimistic

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