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AppGameKit Classic Chat / End doesn't always work

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jlahtinen
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Posted: 22nd Nov 2012 12:16
I don't quite get it:

Why this works...



... and this does not? (doesn't kill the program)

Funnell7
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Posted: 22nd Nov 2012 12:53 Edited at: 22nd Nov 2012 12:56
There has been quite a lot of discussion about this recently. As of v108, you can no longer perform the end command in either a function or gosub. It must be performed in the main loop, as per your first example...

EDIT: I have overcome this by setting a flag. For example:

jlahtinen
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Posted: 23rd Nov 2012 11:28
Seems like there is problems with goto and gosub commands (I know, don't use goto, I was just playing around).

At this point AppGameKit seems like playing around anyways, some things work on Windows, but not when using AppGameKit Player in android.

I just don't like "programming around" the bugs... I mean features (much like in DBP).

But I never bought AppGameKit for making new Angry Birds or to found software company and AppGameKit is just year old, so let's hope it'll be "ready" in a year or so.
AgentSam
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Posted: 23rd Nov 2012 13:59
Lahtinen, I do not share your optimistic view. I bought AppGameKit roughly 6 months ago, and in that time AppGameKit has only become more and more bugged. And I did buy it to get some work done. How naive of me - I should have known better. I'm only happy that the cost is basically pennies... well, can't expect much functionality or quality for that!

Cheers,
AgentSam - the grumpy old software engineer

I do so love to hate AGK. End of rant.
JimHawkins
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Posted: 23rd Nov 2012 14:13
Quote: "End of rant."


I thought End wasn't working!

-- Jim DO IT FASTER, EASIER AND BETTER WITH AppGameKit FOR PASCAL
AgentSam
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Posted: 23rd Nov 2012 14:50
You'll see... it doesn't.
baxslash
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Posted: 23rd Nov 2012 14:57
I honestly haven't found a bug that didn't have a relatively simple workaround and use AppGameKit every day to get some 'real' work done. Maybe it's my blacksmithing background but I relish a problem that needs to be solved. As a blacksmith you often have to make a tool work beyond its design, one of my favourite blacksmithing expressions is "Every tool is a hammer, except for a chisel, that's a screwdriver".

I make AppGameKit do what I want and I'm using V1077 like most of you guys for 90% of what I do.

I know, I know you'll say I'm just saying that because I work for TGC but I don't lie to make things sound better than they are. I don't have to.

AGK is a cheap solution to a problem and is trying to expand quickly enough to please everyone. That is an ideal it will probably never achieve but a pretty good ideal anyway.

Oh, and "end" is working, just not how it should. AppGameKit will behave eventually and I intend to be there when it does


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AgentSam
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Posted: 23rd Nov 2012 15:23
The last stable release available for download by customers is 1076.
There is no 1077 on the product download page.
baxslash
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Posted: 23rd Nov 2012 15:25
Ha, you got me! Yes, sorry it's 1076, my mistake.

I was using an internal V108 version for the Love Hearts game but I went back to the last release for general work.


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AgentSam
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Posted: 23rd Nov 2012 16:05 Edited at: 23rd Nov 2012 16:18
Baxslash, I have never been a professional blacksmith, but I do have a degree in blacksmithing from the Southwest Finland Institute for Craft and Design. (Which recently changed it's name to "Mynämäki Art and Craft College", in case you're googling.)

It's a good skill to have, but not something I would want to do as a living. I am still far better as a programmer, than a blacksmith.

However, rarely as a student of the blacksmiths arts did I think that my tools were broken. And if they were, I was able to fix them quite easily. It was like having the source-code to the tools; a blacksmith can shape everything to his liking - from the tools he uses to the products he makes.

With AppGameKit I am constantly reminded of the fact that the "tool" is broken; AppGameKit is absolutely bug-ridden! And since I don't have the source code available, I can't fix it myself. (Well, you can create workarounds for bugs, in many cases. But that's not what we're supposed to be doing, is it.)

If I had to work with tools like these as a blacksmith, I'd become one those blacksmiths who can't get any work done unless they're totally wasted.

As for trying to please everyone, let's ditch that idea and just get at least ONE nearly bugless release out OR go the open-source route as fast as possible!

If AppGameKit doesn't receive fixes soon, in multiple areas, just chuck it into the forge and let it burn!

Cheers,
Agentsam - still the grumpy old software engineer
baxslash
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Posted: 23rd Nov 2012 16:18
I didn't know there were any other blacksmiths here it's a pleasure to meet one (it explains partly why you are so grumpy I imagine).

Having been a professional blacksmith for around 14 years I may have a more practical approach to working with broken tools and using whatever is at hand to "get the job done" so perhaps that is why we differ in terms of how we are prepared to work.

I'm just trying to say that perhaps it is not as impossible to use as you are suggesting but I can see that you are not someone who is willing to be persuaded on that point. All I can suggest is you make sure all the bugs you find are logged and we will do our best to fix them.

We are trying to get AppGameKit fixed and up to speed with other development products at the same time. For a small team and a small cost I think we do pretty well


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AgentSam
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Posted: 23rd Nov 2012 16:32
That was a nice reply. Your calm attitude is very pleasant.

However, I have a feeling that I have been a programmer for far longer than you have, like you have been a blacksmith for far longer than I have. My expectations of the development environments I use are apparently much, MUCH higher than yours. I would love to be persuaded that AppGameKit will be "good" one day... I don't see that day coming anytime soon. Certainly not fast enough.

Cheers,
AgentSam - the somewhat less grumpy old software engineer
baxslash
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Posted: 23rd Nov 2012 16:45
I hope we prove you wrong but yes, I can see your expectations are higher and I can understand why.

I started playing around with programming around 30 years ago around the age of 7 or 8 (I suspect after you started) but left it for a long time while I followed the anvil around. Since then I have used a variety of languages and environments, some better but most worse than AGK.

As a small development team we rely on feedback from our users (good and bad) and all I can personally do is apologise for the downfalls and ask you to help us to improve the product in a practical way. TGC have long relied on their users for testing and feedback and for the most part the community has responded with constructive criticism that we have been able to use to improve the products to our best ability.

Thanks for being honest but please turn it into something we can use in the Google issues board if you want to see improvement. We do use it as the basis of the majority of improvements in AGK.
http://code.google.com/p/agk/issues/list


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JimHawkins
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Posted: 23rd Nov 2012 19:55
At the age of 70.2 years I'm possibly the oldest programmer here.

I can see why AgentSam is concerned and possibly angry.

There are two things to be separated clearly: the AppGameKit runtime and the Basic language syntax and implementation. I think these become confused in some peoples' minds.

By "AGK runtime" I mean the core that is used by by the Basic compiler and T2/Pascal interfaces. Fundamentally, it's vital that the core runs correctly. However, in this forum, reported "errors" are muddled between core and Basic.

In a sensible world we would be able to fill in an error grid, like those used by other language implementers, and separate quite clearly core errors from Language errors. We also have to remember that underlying technologies like OpenGL and DirectX have their own little set of "features" which may change.

Somebody younger than me (easy challenge) ought to create such a grid for all AppGameKit functions, called as simply as possible from Basic and C/C++ and Pascal. This would make progress easier.

Service packs come out for all compilers. If the compiler was perfect there would have been no need. So to make things clear we need a nice map of where the nasty bits are, so that they can be addressed as quickly as possible.

-- Jim DO IT FASTER, EASIER AND BETTER WITH AppGameKit FOR PASCAL
AgentSam
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Posted: 23rd Nov 2012 20:51 Edited at: 23rd Nov 2012 20:52
Jim, I wouldn't say I'm angry - just insanely disappointed in the product quality.

Separating AppGameKit runtime and the language implementation

It's good that you brought up the topic of separating the runtime and the basic language implementation. Indeed it isn't clearly stated anywhere. I think it is assumed that people can differentiate the two. A fairly simple assumption, and propably correct.

However, there is a third component also - the IDE; which has it's own flaws and shortcomings.

You have my vote for better separation of these three in the error matrix.

The separation extends to the developers - The people of TGC

Whenever I encounter problems with the compiler or the language implementation, I think of Lee.

Whenever I encounter problems with the runtime itself, I think of Paul.

I hate to say, but my respect for Lee and Paul is currently very low. This is partially an issue of experience. Unlike some of the young ones who pick up AppGameKit as their first language, I am not impressed by simple trickery (app boardcast) and a few moving sprites -- when the underlying language and engine design appears to be of rather poor quality.

Oh, and I guess there's the documentation guy also - well, he doesn't get much attention. Off the top of my hat I can't even name him.

Baxslash however, is insanely productive and keeps up a good image on the forums. He is an important asset for TGC, also from the public relations perspective. He maintains good contact with the community and helps more than anyone. All with a friendly tone and a hammer on his belt.

If I had to recommend one more person for the TGC development crew, it would be Eric Van Bilsen (aka Neslib on the forums). His AppGameKit wrapper/class library for Pascal/Delphi is of higher quality than the underlying AppGameKit runtime itself!

He would be a VERY valuable asset for TGC. His AppGameKit wrapper is one of the reasons why I myself am sticking with AppGameKit for the time being.

Enough said.

Cheers,
AgentSam - the grumpy old software engineer - and often brutally honest
baxslash
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Posted: 23rd Nov 2012 21:42
I'm going to stick up for Lee and Paul here because I happen to know how productive they are behind the scenes. I'm nowhere near the level of skill they are at and they are both producing an awful lot more than AppGameKit for us. I am lucky enough on the TGC team to be the only one working on one major project at a time (so far) which is why you see more of me but they are both helpful and far more knowledgable on the forums whenever they get the time.

I don't pretend to know the inner workings of AppGameKit, I'm just good at swinging a hammer. Lee, Paul and the rest of the team made the hammer, the anvil and the rest of the workshop. If you say it's poorly designed then I can't honestly agree or disagree but I do honestly love using the product and never get bored or sick of it. If we could afford more people like Lee and Paul I think you would be praising them rather than slagging them off... In my humble opinion anyway.


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BatVink
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Posted: 23rd Nov 2012 21:43 Edited at: 23rd Nov 2012 21:46
Quote: "At the age of 70.2 years I'm possibly the oldest programmer here"


I think there are a couple of close contenders around

I don't often get involved with these discussions, but I'll throw my twopenneth in, as it's a reasonable debate and nobody is throwing anvils at anyone, which is fortunate as I've never owned one. I'll also that despite being the newsletter editor, I'm freelance and first and foremost an AppGameKit hobbyist.

I break and repair code for a living on rather expensive ERP systems. My customers rarely pay less than £500,000 ($800,000 USD) for the software, £1500 ($2400 USD) per user license and £50,000 ($80,000 USD) a year for maintenance. For that, they get a complex system, but at the same time riddled with defects. It annoys the end users consistently, but from the company and IT department it is expected, and the software is no different to any of the competitors in terms of the number and severity of the defects.

Because of my vocation, I tend not to get stopped by bugs when coding in AGK. For the money, I would expect issues and they are indeed there. But I have never been stopped by anything, I have found a workaround for everything.

What I would say in a bid to try and help (I'm not trying to antagonise) is to post problems here and put the grievances aside while posting (I find shouting at my monitor extremely therapeutic, I suffer from what I like to call programmers torrets, coding brings out the worst in me). I have had some real sticklers of issues and brain freeze, but the community here has always found an answer, or de-iced my brain enough to get back on track.

AgentSam
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Posted: 23rd Nov 2012 22:10
There were a few points in Baxslashes post that I want to criticize, gently...

I'll simply note briefly, that it isn't a good thing that Lee and Paul are working on multiple projects. Is it absolutely necessary for TGC to survive? While it may show that they are capable and even productive, it is not good for AGK; which needs a lot of love and tender care at this point -- not the lead designers to be pushing off in all directions at once.

(I will try to be more understanding of the fact, that TGC is, after all, a small company with limited resources.)

Perhaps my grumpiness has a place, at times, but I will try to dial it down - hopefully I didn't troll around enough to warrant an apology to anyone.

Also, I agree with BatVink that the community, while not very large, is very supportive and contains a handful of better than average coders.

Cheers,
AgentSam
Matty H
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Posted: 23rd Nov 2012 22:16
Show me a game development tool which has a forum with no complaints.
As far as I have seen, they are all full of them

As mentioned by other people above, I only get angry if there is a bug I can't work around.

MarcoBruti
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Posted: 23rd Nov 2012 22:51
I read all your interesting exchange of opinions. I go straight to a simple observations:
- AppGameKit Community is too cheap, 1-2 magnitude less than the nearest competitors. I am ready to bet that TGC could not survive only with it. Business model based on AppGameKit sales is clearly not sustainable.
- Some bugs takes too time to be closed, or do not receive support at all
- roadmap of new versions is unclear, it seems dictated by priorities that change very often (see now the Kickstarter initiative).
- an hobbyst cannot work on buggy versions as AppGameKit beta, unless he/she converts his hobby from "game programming" to "AGK testing".
- FreedomEngine was born with big expectations, but reality is that many enthusiast people are now...less enthusiasts (to be euphemistic).

My thought is that
1) TGC should concentrate on 2-3 core projects (AGK + 1-2 others)
2) release ASAP an 1.08 stable version with the main bugs corrected
3) To sustain business, AppGameKit should be released with a "Professional Version", of course more expensive, but with complete support and tools (Tier-2 templates, improved Basic Compiler, Pascal, etc), good documentation, and optional (paid) support for professional developers.

Otherwise the product shall transform into something "Open-Source like", full of bugs, relying on volunteers, abandoned by real developers, etc. BTW, DBPro has already taken this path, as soon as I understood. AppGameKit is on the way, unfortunately, but TGC is on time to save it and make it a professional product.
Cliff Mellangard 3DEGS
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Posted: 23rd Nov 2012 23:13
iam still using 108 beta because iam lazy to switch back.

And there seams to be alot of new bugs with the end command and raw keys?

Android 2.3 , ZTE Skate , 480x800 , 800 mhz , Samsung Galaxy Y , 240x320 , 832 mhz , Sony ericson arc 480x854 , 1 ghz
Android 4.0 , Dmtech 3g 9738B , 1024x768 , 9.7 inches , 1.2 ghz
JimHawkins
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Posted: 23rd Nov 2012 23:49
It is good to see a measured discussion of these issues. They are important - extremely important for TGC - and its users.

To be completely honest - TGC is currently giving the impression of starting a new project with a fanfare every few months and never quite getting any of them right. Been there, done it myself. It really is calling out for consolidation.

For the price to be realistic that system has to be working.

I suspect AppGameKit has turned out to be a much more complex undertaking than TGC anticipated it would be - although I could foresee that having spent many months looking at the options. The Android universe is a complete mess - a disastrous hodge-podge of conflicting devices and a stitched-together horror of an operating system.

Add to that the Windows 8 RT versus X86 further confused mess.

Intel's Ultrabook competition has been an evil influence on this project. Faced with declining PC sales and the prospect of ARM processors taking over its universe, Intel has taken its knickers off and invited developers to love it into salvation. The thought of a free, thin, not very useful netbook (let's be honest - they're netbooks) has diverted huge energy into pointless chasing of accelerometers and all the other junk.

Newbies who have never programmed will be confused in the forum, because it's a mixture of totally ignorant "how to program" questions and discussions of shaders. So that's a third thing in the great grid of what works and doesn't.

AgentSam is right to say that Erik van Bilsen's Pascal interface is excellent. We are talking seriously professional programming in this - massively surpassing the C/C++ template fiasco.

There will never be a perfect IDE or compiler. But let's work towards both.

-- Jim DO IT FASTER, EASIER AND BETTER WITH AppGameKit FOR PASCAL
LeeBamber
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Posted: 26th Nov 2012 11:44
Hi Guys,

Thanks for the feedback, and I pretty much agree with everything said. It is clear that we need to do a lot more to get AppGameKit to where it needs to be, and the protracted V108 development has only served to occasionally delight, mostly annoy and probably disappoint over the last few months.

If it helps, I can confirm that everyone in the team is using AppGameKit now, and we are all feeding issues into the mix to get V108 where it needs to be. Alas, every time I feel we are close to rounding it off and getting the platforms aligned and release tested, we add another few commands and the process starts over again. The good news is there is now light at the end of the tunnel with only a few more commands left to add, and then we can begin the process of platform testing for a final release. We use AppGameKit for our own products and we needed some additional functionality built into the latest version before we signed it off and started building the players and begin release candidate testing.

Once the last of the commands have gone in, I will make it a point for Paul and I to go through the posted issues from the current AppGameKit V108 beta and ensure we address each one, either as a fix or as feedback into the forum. We continue to monitor them, and they are relatively minor tweaks for the most part, but we placed new commands above these repairs which was not the best way forward with hindsight.

As many of you know, we are a small team and as a business we absolutely need to spin a few plates to stay solvent. It's often distracting from pure engine development, but we specifically choose projects that feed back into our AppGameKit development so not much effort is wasted. If anyone would like to pay our teams day rate, we would be happy to work on AppGameKit engine and IDE 100%, but the reality is that development is 'extremely' expensive and is very often subsidised by having eggs in more than one basket. Back in the day, it was a common statistic that only one out of ten AAA games made royalties for the developer, the other nine just got enough to pay the costs and then went hand-to-mouth to the next publisher. Publishers stayed in business by having enough titles from enough developers in the market that their one hit game would pay for the other 'less successful' titles.

I am working on two titles right now, written in AppGameKit T1, which should do very well in the market and help TGC fund additional AppGameKit development. Thanks to previous AppGameKit titles we have developed, my apps already gain access to Social commands and most recently, video playback which I personally did not have to code. When finished, my apps instantly deploy to four key platforms with the press of a button. It's a great tool for TGC and allows us to turn ideas into real cross-platform apps very quickly, and my hope is the final release of V108 will provide the same level of stability and flexibility for your titles too.

I know promising release dates is dangerous, but I am determined to have V108 finished, tested and released before Christmas. I am also keen to make sure that V109 is a major assault on bugs with new commands completely banned from the update. It would be nice to look at the issues board and see only feature requests

Hogging the awesome since 1999
Cliff Mellangard 3DEGS
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Posted: 26th Nov 2012 18:48
But lee you can be proud of being one of the few that managed to get windows multi touch working for the appup competition.

I got a bit suprised when reading about one of the entrys that whas a tunnel racer game where they used head tracking,shaking the ultrabook for bombs and gyros to steer.

One of the things they didt manage to get to work whas multi touch screen commands that my game is completely using and working 100 %.

They wrote that they manged to get single touch to register they used for the menue but not multi touch at all.

And they where 4-5 people working on a simpel game

Android 2.3 , ZTE Skate , 480x800 , 800 mhz , Samsung Galaxy Y , 240x320 , 832 mhz , Sony ericson arc 480x854 , 1 ghz
Android 4.0 , Dmtech 3g 9738B , 1024x768 , 9.7 inches , 1.2 ghz
JimHawkins
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Posted: 27th Nov 2012 01:29
Well said, Lee. But it's probably time to stop reading the wish-list and ship the already-existing goodies when they are stable.

-- Jim DO IT FASTER, EASIER AND BETTER WITH AppGameKit FOR PASCAL
baxslash
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Posted: 27th Nov 2012 10:15
It's not always a case of reading a wish list when it comes to new features. For example Facebook / Twitter / Admob which were needed in the Squashies World iOS app. They were fully added into AppGameKit to a)save time for TGC in the future and b)add something useful into AppGameKit for the community.


this.mess = abs(sin(times#))
Impetus73
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Posted: 2nd Dec 2012 11:23
I would gladly pay 2-3 times the prices you ask for your products, if it would speed up developement

----------------
AGK programmer
Did Amiga / AMOS programming in the 90's.

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